Question for my Democratic friends

stevevw

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Bradskii provided some actual data about the degree to which the right embraces violence. I have no comment on the credibility of that data, but that is another story.

Do you have any data to support your assertion about the left embracing violence. We all know that there are certainly some on the left who will embrace violence, but that is not surprising. The key question is how widespread is that view.
Violence is the extreme end result of an ideological belief about how things are and how we can order society policially. So that ideology can be expressed in many ways that may not seem violent but contribute to the violence. Like the idea that all differences is the result of victim/oppressor relationships or that all whites are inherently racist. It eventually can lead to violence because thats what victim/oppressor thinking does.

This ideology has been pushed in recent years and underpins our institutions mainly brought in by the Left. What we see today in violence is partly the result of this ideology being cultivated and pushed into mainstream society. The rise of social media doesn't help but its the perfect platform to promote such ideology because its basically about narratives and changing the narrative has powerful repercussions that can lead to division and violence.

So based on this there are many examples. Look at what has happened to a number of people who dare to speak out against the current policy of the Left regarding Trans. Many women have been verbally and physically attacked. In fact womens rights has taken a step back as a result of these policies and laws.

Look what happened to Riley Gaines when she was attacked by activists for simply expressing her belief. This is probably a good example of the opposing ideological beliefs on this issue between the Left and Right.

As mentioned the Left is primarily responsible for society decending into identity politics and identity politics leads to division and that fosters violence.

By locating politics at the level of between-group conflict, rather than as an activity engaged in by individuals for their own purposes, identity politics weakens the possibility of political compromise.

Public policy becomes a matter of life and death for each individual self—this leads to the left’s routine conflation of their supposed political oppression and violence. This is used to excuse its own violence, as seen in the attack on Andrew Bolt earlier this year and in the riots on American university campuses.

Identity politics calls into question liberal democracy itself, and ultimately expands the power of the state.

 
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iluvatar5150

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As mentioned the Left is primarily responsible for society decending into identity politics and identity politics leads to division and that fosters violence.

No, that is not true. The Left is not primarily responsible for this. The identities discussed in leftist “identity politics” already existed in society and were created by others. There would be no “Black” in the US if Whites had not first created that categorization. There would be no “gay agenda” if straight people hadn’t ostracized gays. There would be no “feminism” if men hadn’t first oppressed women. There would be no promotion of minority status of any sort if powerful majorities hadn’t first sought to keep the minorities under foot. The Left may bring up these divisions more than the Right would like - in some cases they may bring up these divisions more often than is productive, but they did not create this “identity politics.” Identity politics was created when the identities themselves were created and ossified in society. The fault for these divisions lies with the groups who created them in the first place, not those who shine a light on them.
 
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stevevw

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No, that is not true. The Left is not primarily responsible for this. The identities discussed in leftist “identity politics” already existed in society and were created by others. There would be no “Black” in the US if Whites had not first created that categorization. There would be no “gay agenda” if straight people hadn’t ostracized gays. There would be no “feminism” if men hadn’t first oppressed women. There would be no promotion of minority status of any sort if powerful majorities hadn’t first sought to keep the minorities under foot.
All this is true but that is not identity politics. Identity politics as it has come to be known today is about an ideological lens for seeing the world through identity rather than as an individual. This lens recasts everything past, present and future through the prism of identity and power struggles.
The Left may bring up these divisions more than the Right would like - in some cases they may bring up these divisions more often than is productive, but they did not create this “identity politics.” Identity politics was created when the identities themselves were created and ossified in society. The fault for these divisions lies with the groups who created them in the first place, not those who shine a light on them.
There will always be differences thats a fact and I think its unreal to not acknowledge this. Sometimes people take advantage for all sorts of reasons and sometimes things happen that disadvantage people but not because of any oppression or malice.

The problem is it seems lately all differences are percieved as malice according to a growing number on the Left especially when it comes to white europeans or those at the top of certain hierarchies of percieved priviledge.
 
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iluvatar5150

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All this is true but that is not identity politics. Identity politics as it has come to be known today is about an ideological lens for seeing the world through identity rather than as an individual.

When you’re writing laws that prohibit blacks and jews from buying houses in certain neighborhoods, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you’re redrawing municipal boundaries in order to segregate schools and other public services, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you’re systematically keeping women from certain career fields or prohibiting them from entering legal contracts without a husband’s cosigning, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you’re denying gays the ability to obtain housing or adopt children, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you’re applying a religious litmus test to political candidates, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you deride cities as not “real America” and the educated professionals within as not “real Americans,” that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you apply a bunch of double standards to people whether they’re in your favored group or not (e.g. Birtherism), that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

I’m not as familiar with Canadian politics, but in the US, identity politics predates the modern left by quite a bit.
 
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expos4ever

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A survey earlier this year showed that most democrates supported Hamas up until this recent attack,
I do not believe you.

Note that the survey you cited tells us Democrats supported the Palestinians, not Hamas. Huge difference.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting the results of the survey?
 
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expos4ever

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There have been repeated claims that Democratic members of Congress have expressed support for Hamas.

Where is the evidence to support this claim?
crickets.jpeg
 
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expos4ever

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Do you really want to have a contest to see which side makes more claims with no basis in fact?
Good idea, I'll start.

On this site, we have seen the following claims made by (ostensibly) the "right":

1. Democratic members of congress have shown support for the recent actions of Hamas.
2. The University of Wisconsin did not condemn pro-Hamas statements.

Let's see how this statements fare when evaluated.

Well, despite repeated requests for evidence to support claim #1, none has been forthcoming.

Conclusion
: The evidence suggests the claim is a falsehood.

Claim #2 is an out and out falsehood as has been shown the relevant thread.

Now then: What demonstrably false statements have been made here by those on the "left"?
 
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stevevw

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I do not believe you.

Note that the survey you cited tells us Democrats supported the Palestinians, not Hamas. Huge difference.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting the results of the survey?
Yet Hamas were the elected representatives of the Palestinians when the survey was done back then. Hamas was not in the news so why would supporters destinguish between the Palestinians and their elected reps. If they support the Palestinians they also support their reps.

Are you saying that they did not include the elected representatives of the Palestinians. How could they support the Palestinians without supporting their elected government.

Otherwise why would those surveyed then drop in their support for the Palestinians because of what Hamas did in the recent attacks. They would have made that destinction by continuing to support the Palestinians but not Hamas they elected rep. That seems to suggest that they linked Hamas and the Palestinians as one.

When Hamas crossed the line so did support for the Palestinians as a whole because they linked the two. It was only when they came to realize the the reality of brutality by Hamas that they withdrew support for the Palestinians themselves meaning they associated the two together.
 
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stevevw

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When you’re writing laws that prohibit blacks and jews from buying houses in certain neighborhoods, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you’re redrawing municipal boundaries in order to segregate schools and other public services, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you’re systematically keeping women from certain career fields or prohibiting them from entering legal contracts without a husband’s cosigning, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you’re denying gays the ability to obtain housing or adopt children, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you’re applying a religious litmus test to political candidates, that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you deride cities as not “real America” and the educated professionals within as not “real Americans,” that’s “seeing the world through identity.”

When you apply a bunch of double standards to people whether they’re in your favored group or not (e.g. Birtherism), that’s “seeing the world through identity.”
These are all true but I am not sure they relate to identity politics of today. Just about everything can be linked to identity even without identity politics. I would say though identity is associated with the above acts they are more about bad behaviour such as descrimination and bigotry.

But we could also say looking from todays position especially if this is distorted by ideology that some of the past so called oppression was not actually oppression but just the normal evolution of hyarchical systems that happen as a result of natural differences but is blamed on oppression.

For example though women have been denied equal rights some if not much of the differences in outcomes is not about oppression but that males just happen to be in those positions for other reasons such as work was limited and more physical in the early days and societies beliefs about mothers being best for child rearing. When I say society I mean both sides of politics.

Identity politics today is a specific political policy whereas in the past there was not specific policy for identity politics. In fact up until recently both sides supported universialism rather than dividing society into identies competing against each other.

As mentioned Identity politics today is based on Postmodernism which only came in during the post modern era.. Its underpinned by intersectionality and equality or social justice theory which only came in around the 90's when Leftist academics created it.

My point is though there may have been some identity politics involved in the past and oppressive behaviour the response, the solution created as a reaction to that which was suppose to make things better, make things more equal and united has actually made it worse. Its actually cultivating the same mentality even more. We use to be at war over race and gender. Now we are in culture wars over an ever growing list of identities.

Fifty years ago, the rhetoric of pro–civil rights, Great Society liberals was, in its dominant voices, expressly group transcending, framed in the language of national unity and equal opportunity. Although the Left was always concerned with the oppression of minorities and the rights of disadvantaged groups, the dominant ideals in this period tended to be group blind, often cosmopolitan, with many calling for transcending not just ethnic, racial, and gender barriers but national boundaries as well.

A new movement began to unfold on the left in the 1980s and 1990s – a movement emphasizing group consciousness, group identity, and group claims. The anti-capitalist economic preoccupations of the old Left began to take a backseat to a new way of understanding oppression: the politics of redistribution was replaced by a “politics of recognition”. Modern identity politics was born.

“What makes identity politics a significant departure from earlier [movements] is its demand for recognition on the basis of the very grounds on which recognition has previously been denied: it is qua women, qua blacks, qua lesbians that groups demand recognition ... The demand is not for inclusion within the fold of ‘universal humankind’ ... nor is it for respect ‘in spite of’ one’s differences. Rather, what is demanded is respect for oneself as different.”

In recent years, whether because of growing strength or growing frustration with the lack of progress, the Left has upped the ante. A shift in tone, rhetoric, and logic has moved identity politics away from inclusion – which had always been the Left’s watchword – toward exclusion and division. How America's identity politics went from inclusion to division
I’m not as familiar with Canadian politics, but in the US, identity politics predates the modern left by quite a bit.
Identity politics as we know it today as in group identity above individual identity and universialism. The one that is at present causing conflict and division was created by the Left and only came about post 60's revolution. Though I agree that some on the Right are buying into the same games which is the inevitable end result of a zero sum game of identity politics.

But if you understand the ideology behind identity politics today such as intersectionality and DEI and ideas like white priviledge, white fragility, inherent racism, positive decrimination you will see the evidence in the rhetoric of the Left.

I watch the US coingress hearings on certain issues like Critical race and Trans ideology in policy and on freedom of speech and belief and constantly see how the Left revert to such language in grilling people and on policy. Its also evidence in that much of the policy has Critical theory underpinnings.

Canada is just an extreme example of taking the ideology to its logical conclusion. Its based on socialism and Marxism so of course its going to end up bec oming totalitarism as in Canada. Its happening to some extent in all Western Nations that have Leftist governments. Look at the conflicts we are having with cancel culture, PC, and Woke which are all hallmarks of identity politics today. We did not have such conflicts even 10 years ago.

The Left’s Social Contract Is Broken. Here’s How to Fix It
 
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iluvatar5150

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Yet Hamas were the elected representatives of the Palestinians when the survey was done back then.

No, they weren’t. And even if they were, the last election in Palestine was in 2006. A lot has happened since then. Even Netenyahu’s government has propped up Hamas.
If they support the Palestinians they also support their reps.

Are you saying that they did not include the elected representatives of the Palestinians. How could they support the Palestinians without supporting their elected government.

You should probably go read a bit more about the history of the palestinian government before continuing with this argument.
 
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Estrid

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I suppose there are people who support Hamas, but I have never come across any of them. What I do frequently see, specifically with Democrats, is support of the Palestinian people who want a separate state.
As one of " a people" here in HK I can readily identify
with those who wish to live free in an independent stste.
 
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expos4ever

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Yet Hamas were the elected representatives of the Palestinians when the survey was done back then.
Citation needed. Besides, even if what you are saying is true, you are clearly moving the goal posts. I was pointing out that you appear to have intentionally misrepresented the results of a survey about who the Democrats supported. You claimed they supported Hamas, whereas the survey result showed they supported the Palestinians. I know what you are trying to do here: you are claiming that since the Palestinian people elected Hamas (and you have not even proved that), the support of democrats for Palestinians must mean support for Hamas.

That logic is obviously incorrect: my grandfather loved cigarettes. I loved my grandfather, but that certainly does not imply I love cigarettes. It is entirely plausible that Democrats support the plight of the Palestinian people, but do not support their voting behavior.

And, again, you have not even giving us any evidence that the Palestinians elected Hamas in anything resembling a free and fair election.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Citation needed. Besides, even if what you are saying is true, you are clearly moving the goal posts. I was pointing out that you appear to have intentionally misrepresented the results of a survey about who the Democrats supported. You claimed they supported Hamas, whereas the survey result showed they supported the Palestinians. I know what you are trying to do here: you are claiming that since the Palestinian people elected Hamas (and you have not even proved that), the support of democrats for Palestinians must mean support for Hamas.

That logic is obviously incorrect: my grandfather loved cigarettes. I loved my grandfather, but that certainly does not imply I love cigarettes. It is entirely plausible that Democrats support the plight of the Palestinian people, but do not support their voting behavior.

And, again, you have not even giving us any evidence that the Palestinians elected Hamas in anything resembling a free and fair election.
There’s also the problem of conflating the people with their politicians.
Hamas got 44% of the vote in 2006, which is less than Trump got in 2016.

Imagine thinking all Americans support Trump because he won the election.
 
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stevevw

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No, they weren’t.
As far as I understand Hamas is the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood and were elected in 2006 and are still in power.
And even if they were, the last election in Palestine was in 2006. A lot has happened since then. Even Netenyahu’s government has propped up Hamas.
It seem according to a 2023 poll theres still a slight majority of Palestinians who support the Hamas leader if there was an election.

more than half of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would vote for Hamas’s Haniyeh over PA President Mahmoud Abbas in a presidential election.

I am not sure what you mean by Isreal government propping up Hamas. If there was I am sure its very conditional. Theres no way by the rhetoric of Netenyahu that he would lend support for Hamas itself as they know they are a terrorist group who want to wipe out Isreal off the face of the world. I would say it is to do with helping the Palestinians with the issues they face as its in their interest to try and stablize Gaza. .
You should probably go read a bit more about the history of the palestinian government before continuing with this argument.
I know the history of the Palestinian government. They have breached human righst for a long time. Its a bit like Sinn Fein the political arm of the IRA in trying to make a terrorist group look legitimate. But still as I mentioned most people still support them.

I don't think the average Palestinian knows too much difference. They have lived under poor conditions for some time even before Hamas when Fatah was in power. Fatah were similar to Hamas and have attacked Isreal in the past and as a result like Hamas were attacked by Isreali forces.
 
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iluvatar5150

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These are all true but I am not sure they relate to identity politics of today. Just about everything can be linked to identity even without identity politics. I would say though identity is associated with the above acts they are more about bad behaviour such as descrimination and bigotry.

They’re examples of identity politics because they mostly all used the political system to achieve political outcomes based around identity.

I don’t understand how you can argue that it’s “identity politics” to shout about pride in being black/gay/woman but not “identity politics” to deny somebody a job, housing, or some other right because they’re black/gay/woman.

But we could also say looking from todays position especially if this is distorted by ideology that some of the past so called oppression was not actually oppression but just the normal evolution of hyarchical systems that happen as a result of natural differences but is blamed on oppression.

Oh?

For example though women have been denied equal rights some if not much of the differences in outcomes is not about oppression but that males just happen to be in those positions for other reasons such as work was limited and more physical in the early days and societies beliefs about mothers being best for child rearing. When I say society I mean both sides of politics.

lol ok. Was that why women were denied the right to vote? The ability to enter into legal contracts? Why women-dominated (esp minority women) jobs were excluded from certain labor protections?

No, it’s because women were seen as less than men.

Identity politics today is a specific political policy whereas in the past there was not specific policy for identity politics. In fact up until recently both sides supported universialism rather than dividing society into identies competing against each other.

To put it bluntly: you just don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re wrong about how Hamas took power. You’re wrong about the history of civil rights and discrimination. You’re even wrong about attitudes regarding individualism vs institutionalism, which have been skewing towards individualism. Group affiliation has been falling.


Its underpinned by intersectionality and equality or social justice theory which only came in around the 90's when Leftist academics created it.

Intersectionality has always existed, even if it wasn’t named as such. Paul’s playing his Roman Citizen card to appeal to Roman leaders is an example.


My point is though there may have been some identity politics involved in the past and oppressive behaviour the response, the solution created as a reaction to that which was suppose to make things better, make things more equal and united has actually made it worse. Its actually cultivating the same mentality even more. We use to be at war over race and gender. Now we are in culture wars over an ever growing list of identities.

There’s room for debate regarding how much of leftist identity politics is productive- I’m not convinced they’re entirely in the right, either. But it’s not correct to blame them for the existence of the battleground in the first place. They’re merely fighting back.


Look at the conflicts we are having with cancel culture, PC, and Woke which are all hallmarks of identity politics today. We did not have such conflicts even 10 years ago.

We most certainly did. The difference is that, years ago, those concerns mainly came out of the Right, who, I infer, are the only ones allowed to engage in cancel culture and outward displays of piety.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I know the history of the Palestinian government.

Then why do you keep saying they were elected? That isn’t what happened. They won the most seats in a coalition government, but then fought a civil war with the main opposition party, seized control of Gaza, and haven’t held an election since.
 
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essentialsaltes

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As far as I understand Hamas is the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood and were elected in 2006 and are still in power.
Hamas received a plurality of the vote, but not a majority. Efforts to form a joint Hamas-Fatah government fell apart (and grew violent). Ultimately, Hamas seized power in Gaza. The Palestinian Authority has de jure rule over Gaza, but Hamas is the de facto ruler by force.
 
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stevevw

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Citation needed.
I gave the link in my last post. Hamas were elected in 2006 and wer still the representatives of the Palestinians in 2023. An additional Poll showed that a slight majority would still vote for the leader of Hamas if there was an election.

The same poll found that more than half of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would vote for Hamas’s Haniyeh over PA President Mahmoud Abbas in a presidential election, while just one-third of Palestinians would choose Abbas.

We know the far Left in France have refused to condemn Hamas

We know the Left in Australia were at first reluctant to condemn Hamas

And the Leftist Greens refused outright to condemn Hamas

And it seems some sectors of the Left in the US are reluctant to condemn Hamas

Heres a possible explanation for why some in the Left find it hard to condemn Hamas while condemning Isreal instead. Taking into consideration that these same factions of the Left are so vocal moralizing about human rights.

Besides, even if what you are saying is true, you are clearly moving the goal posts. I was pointing out that you appear to have intentionally misrepresented the results of a survey about who the Democrats supported. You claimed they supported Hamas, whereas the survey result showed they supported the Palestinians. I know what you are trying to do here: you are claiming that since the Palestinian people elected Hamas (and you have not even proved that), the support of democrats for Palestinians must mean support for Hamas.
No I am saying I don't think they destinguished Hamas from the Palestinians generally. Before the attacks when there was not too much attention and news of Hamas deeds at least for the average person who did not understand the situation knew what was really going on. So there probably was not too much reason for people to think too badly about Hamas.

They may have thought they were a bit radical but not as bad as they have shown with the attacks. In fact some people were still sort of supporting Hamas in the early part of the attacks before the news of babies being killed and women being raped.
That logic is obviously incorrect: my grandfather loved cigarettes. I loved my grandfather, but that certainly does not imply I love cigarettes. It is entirely plausible that Democrats support the plight of the Palestinian people, but do not support their voting behavior.
And, again, you have not even giving us any evidence that the Palestinians elected Hamas in anything resembling a free and fair election.
Lets be realistic here. Even the Right has supported corrupt and inhuman regimes like Gaddafi, Suddam Hussain at one stage and even Bin Ladin from memory. I know many supported Arafat leader of the PLO as well. It should not be surprising that the Left does the same.

I'm not moving the goal posts but using logic. If as you say that the survey was only about the Palestinians then why would support for them drop in the most recent survey after the attacks. Are they blaming the Palestinians themselves for the attacks.

The only logical explanation is that they associated Hamas with the Palestinians before the attacks when there was not too much news about Hamas in the media and when Hamas showed their true nature to the world things changed.

Otherwise why take it out on the poor Palestinians. If they are smart enough to destinguish the difference between Hamas and the Palestinians as you say then why would the Hamas attacks cause a drop in support for the Palestinians. They obviously linked the two then and did so in the previous survey before the attacks.
 
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stevevw

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Hamas received a plurality of the vote, but not a majority. Efforts to form a joint Hamas-Fatah government fell apart (and grew violent). Ultimately, Hamas seized power in Gaza. The Palestinian Authority has de jure rule over Gaza, but Hamas is the de facto ruler by force.
Actually Hamas won the majority of votes, seats (74 of the 132) seats and largest % (44.45 & 40.82 to 41.43 & 35.58).

I think thats all the Palestinians have known is government by force. Fatah was also inhumane. They probably have got use to having the choice between two bad regimes. I would imagine Fatah also rigged things to stay in power. Fatah's leader Abbas tried to derail the elections as he knew he was going to lose. Which implies that Hamas was more popular at the time.

The two factions have also been at war so I would imagine having either regime in power was not going to be good. But I also think most Palestinians have become use to radical leaders and many may even sympathise with taking a radical approach especially when Isreal is giving them a hard time. So it may have been relatively easy to sway some to support them.

 
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stevevw

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Then why do you keep saying they were elected? That isn’t what happened. They won the most seats in a coalition government, but then fought a civil war with the main opposition party, seized control of Gaza, and haven’t held an election since.
No they won the election outright with majority votes, seats and largest %. There was a conflict in trying to form a coalition government with Fatah because Hamas refused to agree with previous agreements and the Road Map made with the International community which included accepting Isreal as a state.

The US and others were trying to undermine the election of Hamas as they wanted the Fatah government and this is what led to a breakdown and conflict between Fatah and Hamas. They even help train fighters representing Fatah to help bring down Hamas. I'm not saying its right that Hamas reatliated to keep power but it seems Fatah and the US were quite willing to attack Hamas as well. In that situation it was bound to blowup either way. I don't think many MIddle Eastern nations have fair elections.

My point was that the West wanted Palestine to have fair elections and they did and the people voted Hamas in a clear majority. It seems the people were sick of Fatah who was also corrupt and commiting abuses. Hamas campaigned on secuiryty and getting rid of corruption which resinated with the people.

Most nations congratulated Palestine under what they said was fair elections.

United States, Russia, United Nations, and European Union) issued a formal statement congratulating the Palestinian people on an electoral process that was free, fair and secure.

Sure its been a long time since and probably most people want Hamas out now. But even Fatah were in power for a long time without elections and nobody cared.
 
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