Trump is right, fiscally it makes sense to build a wall blocking Mexico

[JustOneWay]

We're whining while planning. The Native Americans outsmarted themselves when we first arrived. If they had set aside their differences and acted in concert they could have driven us into the sea easily. Instead some wanted our metal weapons so they could get an advantage over their enemies in war. They also often switched sides between the English and the French, hoping they would destroy each other. Instead both sides grew stronger (the ships kept coming).

I understand you see it strictly from a militaristic point of view, instead of seeing it as an invasion. Your argument is one taken from the old adage that 'might makes right'. I am sure Jesus would have not approved of such thinking.

 

[Armoured]

I have outlined my plan. The fence is just an inexpensive chain link fence with some razor wire on it. It's a simple barrier. The real security comes from armed personnel. Lot's of them.

Forgive my ignorance, but don't they have that already?

The economics of the whole thing have been studied thoroughly (you can pick the one you like).

I'm... sure it has been. Yet you seem to be quite cafeteria-esque in the parts you wish to discuss.

All I have done here is ask about net cost effectiveness. Seems to be a lack of evidence based response, whole lotta "everybody knows" rhetoric.

 

[TheBarrd]

Who do you think you are lecturing one specific poster on their passion to bring their story to this forum?

We have dozens of threads with Americans sitting in their nice house with electricity and running water, and flushing toilets....probably all the other amenities to boot...and complaining about how poor immigrants are taking everything they worked for.

The irony in your post is impressive. Why should anybody listen when others like you seem to refuse to understand that what is happening today is no different than what has already happened.

Selfishness knows no bounds.

Oh, but it is different.
Yes, there were some bad things that happened and yes, some nasty things happened on both sides.
However, as I pointed out to Red Fox...the upshot was that they are much better off in the long run, and continuing to complain about stuff that happened over a century ago is just stupid.
My own Dad was mostly Iroquois Indian, as I think I have pointed out to the lady before. There is a beautiful reservation near the home I grew up in in upstate New York. It is a very comfortable and happy place to live. And yes, the people who live there do remember their own culture and still speak the old language...but I don't think even one of them would want to go back to the way it was before the white man came.
Now, these illegal immigrants are not bringing a more civilized way of life to America. All they are bringing is more poverty and more crime.
Do we really need that?
It is not that I do not sympathize with their plight...but wouldn't it be better if we helped them to straighten out their own country? I mean, Mexico is a very beautiful and fertile country...have you ever been there?
Don't we have enough hungry and homeless children of our own? Don't we have enough crime right here, already?
Is it really worth having this cheap labor, which really only benefits the disgustingly rich, to take away what little does trickle down to the bottom?
Call me "selfish" if you like...I've been called worse, and by better.
But I truly believe we ought to take care of our own poor and homeless kids first.

 

[JustOneWay]

I have outlined my plan. The fence is just an inexpensive chain link fence with some razor wire on it. It's a simple barrier. The real security comes from armed personnel. Lot's of them.

The economics of the whole thing have been studied thoroughly (you can pick the one you like).

I got these wire cutters for a few bucks....

They can't watch everywhere, all the time.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oh, don't think for a second that we're not planning too...

Here in Wisconsin we've approved many of those plans I have no problem with Indian Casinos (and I really like the buffets). The tribes here have been very responsible with these enterprises, although there has been some malfeasance in the past.

 

[Armoured]

I got these wire cutters for a few bucks....

They can't watch everywhere, all the time.

I said way back at the start of the thread that it's basic military tactics that an obstacle is useless without observation or fire. Because, precisely, wire cutters. Yet the people in favour of the wall seem remarkably reluctant to discuss just how much it costs/will cost to put the necessary observation/fire on it.

 

[TheBarrd]

Here in Wisconsin we've approved many of those plans I have no problem with Indian Casinos (and I really like the buffets). The tribes here have been very responsible with these enterprises, although there has been some malfeasance in the past.

Exactly, OldWiseGuy.

Here is a picture of the Casino that the Paorch Indians have on their reservation near where I live in Alabama.
Just see how they are suffering....boo hoo boo hoo...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I got these wire cutters for a few bucks....

They can't watch everywhere, all the time.

They sure can. That's the point of my plan, to flood the fence with security 24/7. Once the border is secure the illegals will stop coming. We can institutionalize border security, improving it all the time.

 

[Red Fox]

Well, admittedly, hang around the fort NDNs, like those who have casinos and take money from the government, have always been a problem and an embarrassment.

 

[JustOneWay]

I said way back at the start of the thread that it's basic military tactics that an obstacle is useless without observation or fire. Because, precisely, wire cutters. Yet the people in favour of the wall seem remarkably reluctant to discuss just how much it costs/will cost to put the necessary observation/fire on it.

The emotion of illegal immigration overshadows rationality. The irony I cannot get past is a bunch of fiscal conservatives who cry for reduced government spending want to spend a trillion dollars on doing away with these people. They don't take into account the jobless void they will leave not to mention the giant hit the GDP will take, thus making the situation even worse.

 

[Armoured]

They sure can. That's the point of my plan, to flood the fence with security 24/7. Once the border is secure the illegals will stop coming. We can institutionalize border security, improving it all the time.

The Australian experience hasn't been that they simply stop coming if you lay off the security. So your 24/7 intensive security is going to be long term.

How much is it costing to train, equip and field all these security people again?

 

[JustOneWay]

They sure can. That's the point of my plan, to flood the fence with security 24/7. Once the border is secure the illegals will stop coming. We can institutionalize border security, improving it all the time.

Again I must mention that more than half of the illegals have come over legally, and did not have to sneak in.

 

[Armoured]

The emotion of illegal immigration overshadows rationality. The irony I cannot get past is a bunch of fiscal conservatives who cry for reduced government spending want to spend a trillion dollars on doing away with these people. They don't take into account the jobless void they will leave not to mention the giant hit the GDP will take, thus making the situation even worse.

Hence my repeated question about net cost benefit analysis.

Which people seem remarkably reluctant to discuss.

If I were cynical, I'd think that maybe their real concern is something other than how much illegals cost in financial terms...

IF I were cynical.

 

[Armoured]

Again I must mention that more than half of the illegals have come over legally, and did not have to sneak in.

That's been the Australian experience too. Our illegal boat arrivals get a lot of press. But most of the people here illegally came in on tourist or work visas, and simply never left.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I said way back at the start of the thread that it's basic military tactics that an obstacle is useless without observation or fire. Because, precisely, wire cutters. Yet the people in favour of the wall seem remarkably reluctant to discuss just how much it costs/will cost to put the necessary observation/fire on it.

And I have responded repeatedly that active military personnel require no additional pay to patrol the border, as they are already being paid. I cannot fathom why this isn't understood.

One reason may be because critics search out the most negative appraisals of cost. The CBO would 'score' my fence by $Billions more than it's actual cost because........that's the way they do things.

 

[Armoured]

And I have responded repeatedly that active military personnel require no additional pay to patrol the border, as they are already being paid. I cannot fathom why this isn't understood.

One reason may be because critics search out the most negative appraisals of cost. The CBO would 'score' my fence by $Billions more than it's actual cost because........that's the way they do things.

Oh, you'll just get the military to do it.

And... you've costed THAT have you? You realise there's more expense to keeping a soldier in the field than just his pay, right?

And the follow up question which people tend to forget when invoking the military as some sort of magic cure all; "who's going to replace those troops you take off whatever duty they're on to go and be border guards"? I mean, forgive me if I misremember, but I seem to recall you being pretty hawkish about Syria and Iran. The US Army is already having trouble with retention and recruitment, where do you think you're going to get all the troops you need for these grand plans?

 

[TheBarrd]

Well, admittedly, hang around the fort NDNs, like those who have casinos and take money from the government, have always been a problem and an embarrassment.

It seems that most of today's Indians would be what you call "hang around the fort" Indians.
And their lives, and the lives of their children, are better for it.
Frankly, I have often thought I might try to prove my own blood, and grab me a bit of that beautiful rez...lovely homes, with all of the amenities, beautiful parks, great schools, and no taxes...plus, every Indian family gets a bit of the profit from the Casino.
Yeah, I think I could deal with that...

EDIT:
Except my kids who are more white than red, wouldn't qualify...and I'm the wrong tribe, anyway...ahh, well...
I suppose I'll just have to be jealous...

 

[JustOneWay]

And I have responded repeatedly that active military personnel require no additional pay to patrol the border, as they are already being paid. I cannot fathom why this isn't understood.

One reason may be because critics search out the most negative appraisals of cost. The CBO would 'score' my fence by $Billions more than it's actual cost because........that's the way they do things.

Where I live, the border patrol travels 60 miles one way to get to the border. They all have Ford f250 trucks, with either a secure area for prisoners, or a trailer carrying quads. We would need to hire at least three times as many people (probably more), then all the equipment that they will need. The cost of manning the border will be astronomical. More conservative policies to inflate the size of government!

Ever try to build a fence up and down a mountain?

 

[TheBarrd]

And I have responded repeatedly that active military personnel require no additional pay to patrol the border, as they are already being paid. I cannot fathom why this isn't understood.

One reason may be because critics search out the most negative appraisals of cost. The CBO would 'score' my fence by $Billions more than it's actual cost because........that's the way they do things.

I wonder how much tax money we've paid for things like toilet seats for government buildings?

 

[Armoured]

Where I live, the border patrol travels 60 miles one way to get to the border. They all have Ford f250 trucks, with either a secure area for prisoners, or a trailer carrying quads. We would need to hire at least three times as many people, then all the equipment that they will need. The cost of manning the border will be astronomical.

Ever try to build a fence up and down a mountain?

I'm imagining something like the East-West German border during the Cold War, continuous chainlink fence and an infantryman every 50 metres.