Zionism

[RealFaith]

Israel is the People of God

in the OT, this was the Jews
they were a "nation", that is the ancient understanding of nation, they did not have nation states like we do now

Israel are the Jews who are faithful to God and the gentiles who have been grafted on

this would be the Christian Church
so in my view, after Jesus died on the cross
the Christian Church is the literal Israel

Yet Joel 3:2 says that the Lord will judge the nations for dividing the land of Israel.

 

[Zeek]

Israel is the People of God

in the OT, this was the Jews
they were a "nation", that is the ancient understanding of nation, they did not have nation states like we do now

Israel are the Jews who are faithful to God and the gentiles who have been grafted on

this would be the Christian Church
so in my view, after Jesus died on the cross
the Christian Church is the literal Israel

The whole idea of the Christian Church being 'literal Israel' is the very crux of replacement theology because it diminishes the nature of G-ds relationship with the nation of Israel (both those already in the State of Israel, and those still in other lands), and it is this sort of skewed theology that makes many Jewish people continue to to be wary of Christians whom they see as usurpers of the promises of YHWH to them.

I think most people that are under the Catholic and Orthodox umbrella cannot get away from what their traditions, theology and dogma teach on the subject, and so cling to this idea that Israel is the Church and G-ds promises to the nation of Israel have shifted to the Church (they only embrace the blessings, never the curses).

Real Faith makes the point that the Church is definately not Israel by quoting Joel 3:2.

I personally believe that in these days it is because of the pernicious teaching of RT that many Christians do not support the nation of Israel, and many actually side with the enemies of Israel...this is because they are now free to believe that the present nation of Israel has nothing to do with biblical Israel, and the RT teaching absolves them from such support.

Whereas if Christians could actually open their eyes and see that G-d has absolutely not rejected Israel, that He loves them with an everlasting love, and He is bringing about His purposes and His plans for them through the re-birth of the nation ...they would bend over backwards to bless them and support them, especially in the wake of so much Christian anti-Semitism that has historically been our legacy to them.

 

[Crypto]

The whole idea of the Christian Church being 'literal Israel' is the very crux of replacement theology because it diminishes the nature of G-ds relationship with the nation of Israel (both those already in the State of Israel, and those still in other lands), and it is this sort of skewed theology that makes many Jewish people continue to to be wary of Christians whom they see as usurpers of the promises of YHWH to them.

I think most people that are under the Catholic and Orthodox umbrella cannot get away from what their traditions, theology and dogma teach on the subject, and so cling to this idea that Israel is the Church and G-ds promises to the nation of Israel have shifted to the Church (they only embrace the blessings, never the curses).

Real Faith makes the point that the Church is definately not Israel by quoting Joel 3:2.

I personally believe that in these days it is because of the pernicious teaching of RT that many Christians do not support the nation of Israel, and many actually side with the enemies of Israel...this is because they are now free to believe that the present nation of Israel has nothing to do with biblical Israel, and the RT teaching absolves them from such support.

Whereas if Christians could actually open their eyes and see that G-d has absolutely not rejected Israel, that He loves them with an everlasting love, and He is bringing about His purposes and His plans for them through the re-birth of the nation ...they would bend over backwards to bless them and support them, especially in the wake of so much Christian anti-Semitism that has historically been our legacy to them.

I agree with you on the fact that Israel (the Jewish nation) is, and will always be, God's people. However, does that mean that we are supposed to support all of Israel's actions? As far as I see it, we shouldn't fight against them, but supporting them, specially militarily, is a whole different story.

 

[Rhamiel]

The whole idea of the Christian Church being 'literal Israel' is the very crux of replacement theology because it diminishes the nature of G-ds relationship with the nation of Israel (both those already in the State of Israel, and those still in other lands), and it is this sort of skewed theology that makes many Jewish people continue to to be wary of Christians whom they see as usurpers of the promises of YHWH to them.

I think most people that are under the Catholic and Orthodox umbrella cannot get away from what their traditions, theology and dogma teach on the subject, and so cling to this idea that Israel is the Church and G-ds promises to the nation of Israel have shifted to the Church (they only embrace the blessings, never the curses).

Real Faith makes the point that the Church is definately not Israel by quoting Joel 3:2.

I personally believe that in these days it is because of the pernicious teaching of RT that many Christians do not support the nation of Israel, and many actually side with the enemies of Israel...this is because they are now free to believe that the present nation of Israel has nothing to do with biblical Israel, and the RT teaching absolves them from such support.

Whereas if Christians could actually open their eyes and see that G-d has absolutely not rejected Israel, that He loves them with an everlasting love, and He is bringing about His purposes and His plans for them through the re-birth of the nation ...they would bend over backwards to bless them and support them, especially in the wake of so much Christian anti-Semitism that has historically been our legacy to them.

I do not think the term "Replacement Theology" is an accurate term to describe what I believe
I think a better term might be "Remnant Theology"
A Remnant of Israel has stayed faithful to God, the Jews who followed Christ
a Remnant of the Gentiles got grafted onto Israel, the gentiles who followed Christ.

the Bible says that we are no longer Jew or Greek, Zionism puts one race above the other races.

 

[prov1810]

Zionism puts one race above the other races.

How?

Deut 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the Lord thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the Lord hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord doth drive them out from before thee.

5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

 

[Messy]

I do not think the term "Replacement Theology" is an accurate term to describe what I believe
I think a better term might be "Remnant Theology"
A Remnant of Israel has stayed faithful to God, the Jews who followed Christ
a Remnant of the Gentiles got grafted onto Israel, the gentiles who followed Christ.

the Bible says that we are no longer Jew or Greek, Zionism puts one race above the other races.

I don't believe one race is above the other, but that they have a different role in His plan. I think He'll use the muslims that are converted now to make them jealous and bring them back to Him. They're waiting for His glory to fill the temple and those ex-muslims walk away with it.

 

[Zeek]

I agree with you on the fact that Israel (the Jewish nation) is, and will always be, God's people. However, does that mean that we are supposed to support all of Israel's actions? As far as I see it, we shouldn't fight against them, but supporting them, specially militarily, is a whole different story.

It's interesting to see that virtually every time someone like me says they support Israel or encourages others to support Israel there is some idea that by supporting Israel we have to be blind to their failings.

I have many Jewish and Israeli friends who love Israel, but they are some of the first to speak up when Israeli policies are seen to be flawed, or some of their actions inappropriate...but the rest of the world thinks they can run Israel better than the Israelis, and I think the Israelis would very much appreciate it if we got our own houses in order rather than holding them up to standards far above anything our own people could ever hope to achieve...the parable of the splinter and the log comes to mind Luke 6:41-46.

 

[Crypto]

It's interesting to see that virtually every time someone like me says they support Israel or encourages others to support Israel there is some idea that by supporting Israel we have to be blind to their failings.

I have many Jewish and Israeli friends who love Israel, but they are some of the first to speak up when Israeli policies are seen to be flawed, or some of their actions inappropriate...but the rest of the world thinks they can run Israel better than the Israelis, and I think the Israelis would very much appreciate it if we got our own houses in order rather than holding them up to standards far above anything our own people could ever hope to achieve...the parable of the splinter and the log comes to mind Luke 6:41-46.

So, what kind of support do you encourage?

 

[Zeek]

I do not think the term "Replacement Theology" is an accurate term to describe what I believe
I think a better term might be "Remnant Theology"
A Remnant of Israel has stayed faithful to God, the Jews who followed Christ
a Remnant of the Gentiles got grafted onto Israel, the gentiles who followed Christ.

the Bible says that we are no longer Jew or Greek, Zionism puts one race above the other races.

The idea that the Church is Israel is undoubtedly a classic form of Replacement Theology.

Zionism is often totally misrepresented and misunderstood...in its most basic form, and the one I subscribe to it is that the Jewish people have the right to Israel as their national homeland both historically and legally the land is theirs. They have the right to determine their own laws, and to defend the land and their people when the need arises.

What Zionism is not.

It is not racist...although like most countries there is a small degree of what might be called racism within the country.

It is not apartheid...although the very tenuous situation has called for some reluctant divisions to be made, simply for security reasons.

It does not practice ethnic cleansing...although it is true that especially in the beginning there were some population shifts, again it was ostensibly for security reasons and demographic viability....but they did not exterminate people which is generally asssociated with ethnic cleansing.

Also although there are numerous settler groups in the area of Judea and Samaria, and about 100 of these are illegal..they have not bulldozed Palestinian houses to make way for their own, nor have they stolen land that belonged to Palestinian Arabs...that is purely anti-Zionist propaganda that many in the West swallow easier than an aspirin.

Yesterday I spoke to a small number of passionate Moslems who were upset at my support of Israel and expressed it quite strongly...but the things they believed about the 'Zionist entity' were no different than what many Christians so readily regurgitate, and most of what they threw at me were complete lies and twisted half-truths.

Another thing to consider is that there has been an evolution of Zionism, and what has developed into the only liberal democracy in the Middle-East, has evolved from some of the atheisitic ideals held by many of the pioneers who had been to Hell and back during the Shoah, and subsequent Moslem persecution.

Israel is a work in progress (and she is surely progressing)...if Christians cannot find it in their heart or in their bibles to give the Jewish people their support, perhaps at the very least they might consider cutting Israel a little slack.

 

[Zeek]

So, what kind of support do you encourage?

First I would advise fellow Christians to meditate on what G-ds heart towards the Jewish people is...and to get in line with that.

Then I would suggest actually getting involved with your local Jewish community...without any Christian agenda on converting Jews or getting ones witness out...but in seeing what you and others can do to support them and stand with them against any bigotry that is coming their way through some of the groups that seek to boycott Israel and try to get local cities and towns to boycott Israeli goods.

If you put in BDS and the name of your area, you could well come up with information showing you where boycotts take place...we have done this and every week join with the Jewish community and stand against them and give local people our own leaflets and the opportunity to see an alternative narrative. If nothing is done, groups like these that seek the total deconstruction of Israel, will prevail unchallenged.

It has to be said that sometimes the Jewish community don't want to get involved or are reluctant etc...but my experience is that when things are properly presented, there will be a core group that will help out.

Other ways to support Israel, are to write to local politicians when you come across biased anti-Semitic remarks in local publications, and above all to read up on the history of modern Israel, and become informed...the Jewish Virtual Library is generally a very good resource, and the Israeli Embassy site is also informative. By way of comparison and for ones own education, look at some of the prolific pro-Palestinian sites (they won't be hard to find) and weigh up the language used and the information they give out.

Pray always...pray for the Jewish people, pray for Israel, pray, pray pray.

Regards. Zeek (you did ask )

 

[Crypto]

First I would advise fellow Christians to meditate on what G-ds heart towards the Jewish people is...and to get in line with that.

Then I would suggest actually getting involved with your local Jewish community...without any Christian agenda on converting Jews or getting ones witness out...but in seeing what you and others can do to support them and stand with them against any bigotry that is coming their way through some of the groups that seek to boycott Israel and try to get local cities and towns to boycott Israeli goods.

If you put in BDS and the name of your area, you could well come up with information showing you where boycotts take place...we have done this and every week join with the Jewish community and stand against them and give local people our own leaflets and the opportunity to see an alternative narrative. If nothing is done, groups like these that seek the total deconstruction of Israel, will prevail unchallenged.

It has to be said that sometimes the Jewish community don't want to get involved or are reluctant etc...but my experience is that when things are properly presented, there will be a core group that will help out.

Other ways to support Israel, are to write to local politicians when you come across biased anti-Semitic remarks in local publications, and above all to read up on the history of modern Israel, and become informed...the Jewish Virtual Library is generally a very good resource, and the Israeli Embassy site is also informative. By way of comparison and for ones own education, look at some of the prolific pro-Palestinian sites (they won't be hard to find) and weigh up the language used and the information they give out.

Pray always...pray for the Jewish people, pray for Israel, pray, pray pray.

Regards. Zeek (you did ask )

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[Rhamiel]

The idea that the Church is Israel is undoubtedly a classic form of Replacement Theology.

Zionism is often totally misrepresented and misunderstood...in its most basic form, and the one I subscribe to it is that the Jewish people have the right to Israel as their national homeland both historically and legally the land is theirs. They have the right to determine their own laws, and to defend the land and their people when the need arises.

What Zionism is not.

It is not racist...although like most countries there is a small degree of what might be called racism within the country.

It is not apartheid...although the very tenuous situation has called for some reluctant divisions to be made, simply for security reasons.

It does not practice ethnic cleansing...although it is true that especially in the beginning there were some population shifts, again it was ostensibly for security reasons and demographic viability....but they did not exterminate people which is generally asssociated with ethnic cleansing.

Also although there are numerous settler groups in the area of Judea and Samaria, and about 100 of these are illegal..they have not bulldozed Palestinian houses to make way for their own, nor have they stolen land that belonged to Palestinian Arabs...that is purely anti-Zionist propaganda that many in the West swallow easier than an aspirin.

Yesterday I spoke to a small number of passionate Moslems who were upset at my support of Israel and expressed it quite strongly...but the things they believed about the 'Zionist entity' were no different than what many Christians so readily regurgitate, and most of what they threw at me were complete lies and twisted half-truths.

Another thing to consider is that there has been an evolution of Zionism, and what has developed into the only liberal democracy in the Middle-East, has evolved from some of the atheisitic ideals held by many of the pioneers who had been to Hell and back during the Shoah, and subsequent Moslem persecution.

Israel is a work in progress (and she is surely progressing)...if Christians cannot find it in their heart or in their bibles to give the Jewish people their support, perhaps at the very least they might consider cutting Israel a little slack.

I do believe that Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself

First I would advise fellow Christians to meditate on what G-ds heart towards the Jewish people is...and to get in line with that.

Then I would suggest actually getting involved with your local Jewish community...without any Christian agenda on converting Jews or getting ones witness out...but in seeing what you and others can do to support them and stand with them against any bigotry that is coming their way through some of the groups that seek to boycott Israel and try to get local cities and towns to boycott Israeli goods.

If you put in BDS and the name of your area, you could well come up with information showing you where boycotts take place...we have done this and every week join with the Jewish community and stand against them and give local people our own leaflets and the opportunity to see an alternative narrative. If nothing is done, groups like these that seek the total deconstruction of Israel, will prevail unchallenged.

It has to be said that sometimes the Jewish community don't want to get involved or are reluctant etc...but my experience is that when things are properly presented, there will be a core group that will help out.

Other ways to support Israel, are to write to local politicians when you come across biased anti-Semitic remarks in local publications, and above all to read up on the history of modern Israel, and become informed...the Jewish Virtual Library is generally a very good resource, and the Israeli Embassy site is also informative. By way of comparison and for ones own education, look at some of the prolific pro-Palestinian sites (they won't be hard to find) and weigh up the language used and the information they give out.

Pray always...pray for the Jewish people, pray for Israel, pray, pray pray.

Regards. Zeek (you did ask )

why should I care if people boycott Israeli goods? In the first post of yours that I quoted you admit that there about 100 illegal settlements, should not Israel be held accountable for taking land from the West Bank?
a boycott seems like a nice peaceful way to show that illegal actions will not be tolerated.

supporting different communities against bigotry is a good thing, should we not do that for everyone though?

 

[Zeek]

I do believe that Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself

Thats a start bro...you can build on that.

Why should I care if people boycott Israeli goods? In the first post of yours that I quoted you admit that there about 100 illegal settlements, should not Israel be held accountable for taking land from the West Bank?

Fair question.

If you know your history, you will find that this particular sort of boycott emulates what happened in Nazi Germany, where Jewish businesses and academics were boycotted.

Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ostensibly many will say they are only boycotting goods that they see as coming from the occupied territories (which are not occupied, but 'disputed')...but when you speak to many of them and then read their 3 tiered objective, you discover that it goes far deeper than that, and ultimately they support the deconstruction of Israel as the Jewish nation.

Yes some of the human rights issues they support have a basis..but they are dishonest because they use these to shield their main aims and objectives, and I have taken photos of placards they hold up that ask people to boycott Israel....not merely boycott certain goods.

Many settlements may be deemed illegal, but the Israeli government is working on a proper legal outcome, not because they illegally occupy Palestinian land (which they don't) but because they occupy derelict government land without having the full documentation....I believe in most of these cases when they comply with certain requirements which they have by-passed, they are permitted to settle legally.

They are often condemned under certain resolutions associated with the UN and International Law, but many people are unaware that these are predominantly strongly suggested recommendations and are not in fact binding...nor do they have the legal jurisdiction over Israel in view of the San Remo agreement which has never been abrogated and takes precedent over both the UN resolutions and International Law that finds itself at odds with previous Laws that were ratified by 56 nations.

a boycott seems like a nice peaceful way to show that illegal actions will not be tolerated.

Who are they to dictate their demands to Israel, when the situation is complex and the negotiating table is the only meeting ground to achieve anything...besides they may seem peaceful, but like I said it hides their agenda, and if you check out some of their demonstrations on the web you might get an inkling that they are actually aligning themselves with the aims and goals of terrorist groups that want to see Israel wiped off the map...they even chant 'from the river to the sea Palestine will be free' which is directly in line with Hizbollahs aims.

supporting different communities against bigotry is a good thing, should we not do that for everyone though?

It is time Christians woke up to what is really going on...we have given very poor support to the Jewish people down through the centuries, and bascially washed our hands of them, not even helping them in their time of greatest need during the Holocaust (or doing very little to help)...I personally believe that time is short and Christians have this last opportunity to stand with the Jewish people and make their voice heard before a world-wide anti-Semitic/anti-Zionist/anti-Jewish wave breaks across our nations.

 

[Rhamiel]

No matter what was done in the past, that does not justify injustice now

this "disputed territory" is kind of a joke
it is only "disputed" because Israel is setting up settlements in it

you are right, too many people were quiet durring the Hollocost
but does that mean we should be quiet now in the face of grave injustice done by Israel to the people of Palistine?
Israel does not get a free pass to murder and destory just because they had a tough time in the past
here is a map, I believe it is the 2012 map, so no clue to how many more violations of Palistinian land has taken place since the map was made

 

[Messy]

No matter what was done in the past, that does not justify injustice now

you are right, too many people were quiet durring the Hollocost
but does that mean we should be quiet now in the face of grave injustice done by Israel to the people of Palistine?
Israel does not get a free pass to murder and destory just because they had a tough time in the past

The devil uses radical Islam, because he wants to get rid of God's people. Why do you you think there was a holocaust? Why is there a new holocaust of Islam killing christians and converted muslims? We'd better just pray for them all.
Did you know this?
History of Hitler and Islam - YouTube
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/hitlers-mufti

 

[Zeek]

No matter what was done in the past, that does not justify injustice now

this "disputed territory" is kind of a joke
it is only "disputed" because Israel is setting up settlements in it

Nonsense...it is disputed because both the Israelis and the Palestinian Arabs have put forward claims to the land.

you are right, too many people were quiet durring the Hollocost
but does that mean we should be quiet now in the face of grave injustice done by Israel to the people of Palistine?

No one is asking you to be quiet when any injustices are done...what is being asked of you and others is that you try and get a better handle on what is truly going on.

Israel does not get a free pass to murder and destory just because they had a tough time in the past
here is a map, I believe it is the 2012 map, so no clue to how many more violations of Palistinian land has taken place since the map was made

For the umpteenth time, it is not Palestine...there is currently no such place as Palestine and Israel has not stolen sovereign territory from the non-existant county of Palestine.

Most of the land that Israel 'occupies' is under negotiation, but they are not obligated to designate any of it to a foreign power that seeks their destruction...no nation in the world would do such a stupid thing and endanger the lives of their citizens. Even today the Fatah website celebrated the murders of Israelis and showed a map of Palestine, which included the whole of present day Israel.

Time to wake up and smell the humous.

 

[Rhamiel]

so if I claim to own your house can we call that "disputed territory" as well?
that would be great for me, not so great for you

For the umpteenth time, it is not Palestine...there is currently no such place as Palestine and Israel has not stolen sovereign territory from the non-existant county of Palestine.

Most of the land that Israel 'occupies' is under negotiation, but they are not obligated to designate any of it to a foreign power that seeks their destruction...no nation in the world would do such a stupid thing and endanger the lives of their citizens. Even today the Fatah website celebrated the murders of Israelis and showed a map of Palestine, which included the whole of present day Israel.

... I ... am not sure ... what to say....
like... they had a map that showed all of Israel as Palestine
that's rude...
some people were murdered, that is tragic

but some of those who are pro-Israel do not recognize the authority of Palestine over Palestinian land
why do you expect them to recognize Israel if they are not getting recognized?

also, "endanger the lives of the citizens"
I think the Israel government is putting more civilians in danger by the way they treat Palestinians

and who is really in danger here?


or




Yeah, the palistinians have guns
and rockets
and suicide bombers

Israel has a REAL ARMY
one of the best militaries on earth as a matter of fact
special forces, tanks, jets
A NUCLEAR BOMB!
tank beats AK-47 any day of the week
do not try to play off that Palestine is a real threat.

besides, if all this "God wills it!" stuff is right, then Israel has nothing to worry about

 

[Zeek]

so if I claim to own your house can we call that "disputed territory" as well?
that would be great for me, not so great for you

The Arabs lost their attempt to eradicate Jews from the Middle-East and they lost territory that would have remained in their hands if they had not been so intent on their hateful mission in the name of Allah....their avowed intentions have not really undergone any change, only their long-term strategies

... I ... am not sure ... what to say....
like... they had a map that showed all of Israel as Palestine
that's rude...
some people were murdered, that is tragic

Rude?...tragic?....naughty Palestinians!

but some of those who are pro-Israel do not recognize the authority of Palestine over Palestinian land
why do you expect them to recognize Israel if they are not getting recognized?

Why do you have to dream up such feeble excuses for the Palestinians the whole time...sure they get a raw deal, and they generally have a hard life with poor wages and heavy unemployment...but this is hardly the fault of Israel. Mostly they have only themselves to blame and the people who they have in leadership over them.

Yeah, the palistinians have guns
and rockets
and suicide bombers

Israel has a REAL ARMY
one of the best militaries on earth as a matter of fact
special forces, tanks, jets
A NUCLEAR BOMB!
tank beats AK-47 any day of the week
do not try to play off that Palestine is a real threat.

Don't be daft Ramiel...the Palestinians do not operate alone, they are more like a 5th column within Israels borders...they are encouraged, goaded and supplied by many Moslem States. Do you want Israel to say sorry that of necessity they have developed one of the most efficient fighting forces in the world?...or perhaps you think they should get rid of their tanks, planes and nuclear deterent just to make things a wee bit fairer all around.

Fact is if you are stupid enough to pull the tail of a tiger you will be bitten.

besides, if all this "God wills it!" stuff is right, then Israel has nothing to worry about

That sounds more like Islamic fatalism or Hindu Karma and is not something I subscribe to in any form. Prophecy may give a brief outline of future events, but it doesn't mean we sit on our butts singing 'Que sera sera'.

 

[Goodbook]

I thought the Bible said that His people are not fighting with carnal weapons of war but a spiritual war..

this is said by an isrealite believer in Christ - Paul

3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

I don't understand the hoo-ha about the middle-east and why anyone should support people who can't resolve their differences and don't believe in Jesus and hate Him.

Sorry. this is an old thread but yea. I was just reading through what the singles forum ppl had written.

 

[Rhamiel]

basically it is Western countries getting manipulated by guilt over allowing the Holocaust to go on as long as it did
so now the USA gives billions of dollars of aid to Israel every year