Zephaniah

[eclipsenow]

I will deal with the second two questions. The first question, I am not sure of what you are meaning, and it goes off into another direction from Ezekiel 39.

Why is it Jesus Himself speaking in those verses? Because currently the Jews don't accept that Jesus is the Lord their God. When Jesus returns to this earth, they have changed their minds in the middle of the seven years following the Gog/Magog event.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

I'm sorry, but how is that any different to literally hundreds - maybe thousands of similar commands and reminders and prophecies - that Jehovah is their God? I mean, how do the 10 Commandments themselves even start? Are ALL those verses actually Jesus? So are ALL those verses now about Revelation?

And Ezekiel 39:17-20 is nearly identical to the Revelation 19:17-18 verses, at the time of Jesus's return.

Granted - but that doesn't make the "I" in this passage Jesus. It means John is quoting the OT - just as Jesus was when he referred to Abraham - and Stones - and making the stones themselves cry out and acknowledge him. (Us - the pagan Christians who worship him.)

And when Jesus returns, he will rule the nations (the heathen) with a rod of iron. v21, Jesus had just executed judgment on the heathen who had gathered together to make war on him. His glory set among the nations, i.e. Jesus present here on this earth.

I don't see anything to do with Jesus there. This is all easily fulfilled in the return to Palestine under Persia.

And when Jesus returns, he will send his angels out to gather the Jews scattered around the world, back to Israel, not leavening one in the nations, v28.

Absolutely horrific imagery! No no no - that's anti-gospel!
No - in his time, Ezekiel saw Israel returning home as glorifying God.
In Jesus time, he said all would be gathered by angels into his kingdom. Then he spent his earthly ministry describing that kingdom being one of grace, trusting in his death and resurrection, and bringing the mystery of the OT into the light - that both Jew and Gentile would become one kingdom.

Corresponding to Matthew 24:31. Matthew 24:31 also corresponds to Deuteronomy 30:3-4 (a great chapter regarding the blessing and the curse for Israel, depending on the choices they made).

Judgement Day.

Regarding your second question, dating the prophecy of Ezekiel 39. Ezekiel 38 indicates latter times, latter years. And when Ezekiel 39 is completely fulfilled there will not be a single Jew left in the nations.

Sighs. 7 minutes - why is Gog described in the same images as Tyre and Egpyt?

And you STILL haven't dealt with Genesis and Gog / Magog!
Again:-

So you say, but I see Daniel quoting and CHANGING an event in Genesis.
It means something when a writer does that! Who is the individual, and who is the land again?
What does the bible say?
Well, here's the thing.
It says both. In Genesis, MAGOG is a man.
In Ezekiel, Gog is a man and MAGOG is a country.
Is the bible contradicting itself?
Or is Daniel turning MAGOG the man into a whole evil country to represent something? Because that is the only way to explain why the bible would otherwise literally be 'contradicting' itself. But it's not. Daniel is saying something like "And then that Great Hitler country will be utterly defeated when we go back into the land, and the Nazi shall be gone." Something like that. Making the individual into a country, and bringing in another term for the regime and personifying it.

 

[eclipsenow]

Hey! Its too early for you in Sydney, only 6:45am now.

Cheers - I had a neck injury decades ago when I was a young man in the army and it has been playing up. Bit of insomnia there.

What I do know is that I could not have done what I have in my own capability. The Lord has inspired me and He has surely blessed me in many ways.

Oh please - every second thing in the life of a Pentecostal is some little miracle from God that cannot possibly be explained by regular phenomenon. Where as a reformed evangelical, I think the mundane and normal is often spiritual in a different way.

Obviously the Lord has blinded the eyes and stopped the ears of many peoples, even His servants. Isaiah 42:18-20

This is where you start to sound really arrogant and superior and unlikable. It's why I flare up so much. (Get it? Get it? Flare? Come on - that's hilarious after our multiple years of sparring.)

This is the reason for the proliferation of theories and doctrines about what will happen. Those who have believed theories like the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, are locked into it, Isaiah 29:9-12, and no amount of proofs against it has any effect.
Only as things happen, will they understand, Isaiah 29:23-24, Isaiah 32:3-4
So that is how the Lord wants it. But I am sure that people who reject the unfulfilled prophesies; the ones obviously yet to happen, are making a bad mistake and it may be hard for them in the future.

So often you unintentionally call your brothers and sisters unsaved when you do this routine.

As for cooking over dried dung; many peoples do that. At least the Lord allowed Ezekiel to not use human dung. Ezekiel 4:17

No - that's not good enough! You've ignored a HUGE majority of the prophet's work - like 80 to 90% of it or something. What about the Great Day of the Hair Hack? The Portentous Pandemic of the Poo? The Languishing Lie in Lanks? (Lanks of rope that is.) The Great Day of the Naked Nudie? (Isaiah's naked phase)? I thought you said this stuff was LITERAL! Was meant to HAPPEN - to US! Now! Infallibly because the prophets do not lie - emphatically because your timetable guarantees it?

 

[Douggg]

I don't see anything to do with Jesus there. This is all easily fulfilled in the return to Palestine under Persia.

You were responding to my statement...And when Jesus returns, he will rule the nations (the heathen) with a rod of iron. v21, Jesus had just executed judgment on the heathen who had gathered together to make war on him. His glory set among the nations, i.e. Jesus present here on this earth.

Could you please put return to Palestine under Persia - in terms used in the kjv - so that I will know what you are talking about?

v17-20 is Armageddon. Following Armageddon, Jesus sets his glory among the heathen (in v21). That has not been done in history.

Jesus rules the nations, the heathen, with a rod of iron, from Zion, i.e. Jerusalem. Right after their vain attempt to make war on him in the Armageddon event.

Psalms 2.

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[Douggg]

Absolutely horrific imagery! No no no - that's anti-gospel!

v28 is not imagery. v28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Which also corresponds to Deuteronomy 30:3-4.


3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Matthew 24:31 is the fulfillment of God's promise to the children of Israel, He made in Deuteronomy 30:3-4.

 

[Douggg]

So you say, but I see Daniel quoting and CHANGING an event in Genesis.
It means something when a writer does that! Who is the individual, and who is the land again?
What does the bible say?

I have no idea of what you are talking about. As far as what the bible says, here is a word search for Magog in the kjv.

MAGOG IN THE BIBLE

I am not seeing any mention of Magog in the book of Daniel.

Here is a word search for Gog in the kjv. Again no mention of Gog in the book of Daniel.

GOG IN THE BIBLE

 

[eclipsenow]

[


You were responding to my statement...And when Jesus returns, he will rule the nations (the heathen) with a rod of iron. v21, Jesus had just executed judgment on the heathen who had gathered together to make war on him. His glory set among the nations, i.e. Jesus present here on this earth.

Nope. He's not in the passage.

Could you please put return to Palestine under Persia - in terms used in the kjv - so that I will know what you are talking about?

Are you saying you don't know that the Jews returned from Exile back to Israel / Palestine under Persia? Return to Zion - Wikipedia
Also, I've told you my opinion on the kjv. We owe it a great debt and place of honour in history but now it's time to move on.

Psalms 2.

Not so fast - you haven't dealt with Gog / Magog.

 

[eclipsenow]

I have no idea of what you are talking about. As far as what the bible says, here is a word search for Magog in the kjv.

MAGOG IN THE BIBLE

I am not seeing any mention of Magog in the book of Daniel.

Apologies - I had insomnia last night - I meant Ezekiel. Why is Ezekiel changing the use of Gog / Magog?

 

[keras]

This is where you start to sound really arrogant and superior and unlikable.

I gave the verse for the reason why even Christians fail to understand the Prophesies: Isaiah 42:19-20 Who is blind as My servant, who so deaf as the messenger that I send. Who is so blind as the one who as My trust, so deaf as the servant of the Lord.
You have seen much, but perceived little, your ears are open, but you hear nothing.

So often you unintentionally call your brothers and sisters unsaved when you do this routine.

I never call anyone unsaved.
Ignorant, deceived and foolish, yes, but still saved believers in Jesus.

It will be interesting when we meet in the holy Land. Zechariah 3:10
My hope is that I won't be guilty of not warning as many people as I could have.

No - that's not good enough! You've ignored a HUGE majority of the prophet's work - like 80 to 90% of it or something.

I haven't ignored any Bible prophecy. Would you like me to post all of my 800 + articles here?
Have you bothered to look at my logostelos website? Or do you refuse to go there in case your mind gets polluted?

 

[Douggg]

Are you saying you don't know that the Jews returned from Exile back to Israel / Palestine under Persia? Return to Zion - Wikipedia

It would be helpful if you would be a little more clear. Return from where? Babylon.
to where, the land of Israel, and Jerusalem to rebuild the city and temple.

Palestine is mentioned on once in the kjv.

PALESTINE IN THE BIBLE
________________________________________________

Anyway, returning from the Babylonian captivity was over 400 years before Jesus's time. So how could that be called the latter days, latter years ?

Ezekiel 39:28, not leaving one of the house of Israel in the nations could not have been referring to the return from the Babylonian captivity.

It is Jesus Himself speaking in that text, just as it is Jesus Himself speaking in Matthew 24:31 gathering the elect from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Douggg]

It says both. In Genesis, MAGOG is a man.
In Ezekiel, Gog is a man and MAGOG is a country.
Is the bible contradicting itself?

Gog is a man, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.

Magog is a land, a region. It says in the text of the kjv.

Magog is Ezekiel 38 is just referring to the area which the person Magog in Gensis settled in.

Gog in Ezekiel 38:15 comes from the "north parts". So Magog is the region north of Israel.

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

None of those things take away from it being Jesus Himself speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 following Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

 

[eclipsenow]

My hope is that I won't be guilty of not warning as many people as I could have.

It just doesn't matter. What matters is the gospel - because someone you love could die of Covid before your hypothetical CME gets them. I'm quite happy to live with the ambiguous nature of the Return of the Lord - because I know that every day I could die. I'm only a breath, a heartbeat, or a stroke away from seeing the Lord. As are we all. So there's the urgency. But then there's also the fact that I should plan my superannuation and take holidays and obey the Lord in rest so I don't burn out for the long haul. There's the wisdom for future planning. But the Lord could return at any moment - and my 'works' might burn up like straw if they're not centred around the gospel. There's the humility.

We just don't KNOW Keras - and the fact that you futurists are always trumpeting your own pet theories until time proves them wrong makes me allergic to that way of thinking. I mean, how much more embarrassment can young people take before they give up the faith altogether? Imagine some kid in a high school somewhere getting all excited. Then 2030 arrives, and he hasn't planned his career well at all because he wondered what the point was - and this website he based his life around and pinned all his hopes on just turns out to be plain wrong! In bitterness he walks out of the church altogether.

That's what you and your ilk risk.

 

[Douggg]

I have corrected my mistake: the last 2000 years commenced when Jesus was acclaimed as King of the Jews and subsequently killed.

Okay, working with the revised start year of 33 AD.

So, 2000 years later to 2033, Jesus's return. Then we minus the 7 years = 2026 the beginning of the 7 years.

Keras, how does that allow in your scenario, between now and 2026, for the CME event, then all Christians of the world moving into the depopulated land of Israel, forming a new nation of Beulah - and then in 2026 entering into a 7 year agreement with the leader of a one world global government ?

In the 4 years or 5 years between now and 2026, I don't think there is enough time for your scenario to take place.

If CME in 2021, then 5 years for all the Christians in the world to move to Israel. And build a nation in that time?

New Orleans just got hit with Hurricane Ida, here in an country blessed to have many resources; and it could be years before the damage to infrastructure is repaired. And that is with all of the government institutions, and private industry, in place.

 

[Douggg]

That's what you and your ilk risk.

On the flip side of that same coin...

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[eclipsenow]

On the flip side of that same coin...

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

But of course! That is exactly what I'm saying.
But not. You futurists mistake preparedness for specificity, a promotional Travel Brochure of highlights for a plane ticket booked on a certain specific date.

The world will be pretty much as it is now - and then WHAM!
NO WARNING!
Just like a thief in the night.
As I've been saying all along.
You CANNOT predict.
But you can prepare.
Stay Christian.
That is all.

Now when are you going to answer all my other previous points? Remember you said you do substantive posts....? EG: What does Genesis say about Gog / Magog?

 

[Douggg]

The world will be pretty much as it is now - and then WHAM!
NO WARNING!
Just like a thief in the night.
As I've been saying all along.

The difference is that you are talking about everything happening in one day. What Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24:31-51 is being ready for the rapture to avoid having to go through the great tribulation.

The argument you are making of some young person not taking steps in his life because the futurist' view would make it senseless to do so, is not valid - for I myself was in that position 50 years ago. What a person should be saying in regards to any plans they have is to say "if the Lord is willing". Jesus wants us to "occupy" until he comes.

To keep quiet about the day and times we are living in, is the worst dis-service a Christian could do to someone else.

 

[Douggg]

Now when are you going to answer all my other previous points? Remember you said you do substantive posts....?

You wrote...."Apologies - I had insomnia last night - I meant Ezekiel. Why is Ezekiel changing the use of Gog / Magog?"

Add "forgetfulness" to your list.

 

[eclipsenow]

Gog is a man, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.

Magog is a land, a region. It says in the text of the kjv.

Magog is Ezekiel 38 is just referring to the area which the person Magog in Gensis settled in.

Gog in Ezekiel 38:15 comes from the "north parts". So Magog is the region north of Israel.

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

None of those things take away from it being Jesus Himself speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 following Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

You wrote...."Apologies - I had insomnia last night - I meant Ezekiel. Why is Ezekiel changing the use of Gog / Magog?"

Add "forgetfulness" to your list.

In Genesis, MAGOG is a man.
In Ezekiel, Gog is a man and MAGOG is a country.
Is the bible contradicting itself?

Or is Ezekiel turning Magog into a land and introducing a whole new character "Gog" that we have not heard of before to personify the many enemy powers we read about God wanting to deal with in that generation - back then and there. In those Chapters of Ezekiel.
(Many of these just do not exist in the same format today.)
It's a literary device called a personification - useful in metaphors!
It's all God's enemies wrapped up in one character.

 

[Douggg]

It's a literary device called a personification - useful in metaphors!
It's all God's enemies wrapped up in one character.

I don't have a problem with the personification aspect. But Gog is not the code name for the sum total of all God's enemies, which I think you are saying. Gog in Ezekiel 38-39 is the code name for one specific enemy of God, in the latter days, latter years.

Another example is in Ezekiel 28. Prince of Tyre, a code name for the revealed man of sin.
King of Tyre, a code name for Satan.

_______________________________________________________

btw, concerning actual person of Magog in Genesis, and Gog in Ezekiel, there was another actual person named Gog in the old testament. In 1Chronicles5, in the family tree of Israel....

4 The sons of Joel; Shemaiah his son, Gog his son, Shimei his son,

Joel
Shemaiah
Gog
Shimei


Of note, the name Shemaiah shows up as one of Adonikam's last three sons.

It doesn't say which of the three. Shemaiah could have been number 666 of Adonikam's descendants.

Adonikam had 666 children at the time of coming out of the Babylonian captivity. I think it meant his descendants.

Ezra 2:13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.
Ezra 8:13 And of the last sons of Adonikam, whose names are these, Eliphelet, Jeiel, and Shemaiah, and with them threescore males.

Perhaps Shemaiah will be the name of the Antichrist. Remains to be seen. Doubtful though because Shemaiah means "That hears or obeys the Lord".

 

[keras]

It just doesn't matter. What matters is the gospel

Sure; the Gospel is paramount.
But the Prophetic Word cannot be just dismissed, just because people can't figure it out. The scriptures like Isaiah 42:18-20 and Matthew 11:25 tell us why this is.
But just maybe, a few WILL understand and although we cannot know the day, the season can be known from the many indicators prophesied.

That's what you and your ilk risk.

I am not so silly as to sell everything and try to gather followers and go up a mountain or somewhere to wait for the Lord at 12 am on a selected day.
I know from the description of that forthcoming Day, that we who live downunder, will have 24 hours to find shelter and wait it out for the next day.

 

[eclipsenow]

I don't have a problem with the personification aspect. But Gog is not the code name for the sum total of all God's enemies, which I think you are saying.

Well, not "all" of them - but all the ones at least mentioned in the passages in Ezekiel - he's an amorphous distillation of all the different nations and tribes mentioned that stand opposed to God.

Gog in Ezekiel 38-39 is the code name for one specific enemy of God, in the latter days, latter years.

Assertion is not evidence.
"Gog" from Magog only appeared here - with Ezekiel reworking the Magog name from Genesis.
How do you know Persia didn't clean up the land as Israel came back in? How do you know that whatever happened between Persia and Babylon and surrounding enemies of God didn't - in part - represent only one 'layer' of the promised judgement of God? That it was but a type and a shadow of things to come?

Another example is in Ezekiel 28. Prince of Tyre, a code name for the revealed man of sin.

Except it isn't. It just represents the king of Tyre - that I know of anyway.

Ezek 28:2
28:2 a god . . . in the heart of the seas. In the ancient Near East, the watery depths of the primeval ocean are a standard symbol for the powers of chaos and death. Archaeologists have discovered more than one mythical creation account in which “the Sea” appears as a dragon or sea monster to be killed by the gods. The threat of chaos to the created order is subdued and the gods rule the waves. In the Bible the sea is no threat to God; it obeys His commands. Ezekiel describes how the king of Tyre had become proud of the city’s wealth and power, and had begun to flatter himself as a god ruling over the sea (cf. Ps. 29:10; Rev. 17:1, 15). But the sea would swallow him (v. 8; 29:3 note).
Ezek 28:2 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway​

Perhaps Shemaiah will be the name of the Antichrist. Remains to be seen. Doubtful though because Shemaiah means "That hears or obeys the Lord".

Or it could be Deidre or Petunia - you know - anyone that denies Jesus is the son of God.