Zephaniah

[keras]

Ezekiel 39:21-29 proves Mr. Riddebarger wrong in his overall view.

Riddlebarger is a typical 'wise and learned' person. It is impossible for him to know the truth of prophecy, Matthew 11:24 1 Corinthians 1:19-20 and Daniel 12:4 says no one will know the Prophetic truths until near the end times. Then; only a few will understand.

Why does anyone need the pronouncements of 'experts' like him? Can't they figure out the plainly stated scriptures?
How the Bible narrative is a series of events, leading up to the final apex of God having obtained a faithful group of humans who have freely chosen to serve Him in Eternity.

 

[keras]

Do you have a link to a post containing that timeline?

No, I could repost it, but simply look at logostelos.info - Subject; 7000 year Plan

 

[Douggg]

No, I could repost it, but simply look at logostelos.info - Subject; 7000 year Plan

From a post you made #10 in Aug 2017...

The 7,000 year plan of God


"I have done that and have posted the proof of 6000 years since Adam, will be over in 2029/2030.
But there is a lot that must happen before Jesus Returns, exactly 2000 years since He commenced His earthly Ministry, in 30 AD."


So 2030, Jesus's return. Minus the 7 years = 2023 the beginning of the 7 years.

Keras, how does that allow in your scenario, between now and 2023, for the CME event, then all Christians of the world moving into the depopulated land of Israel, forming a new nation of Beulah - and then in 2023 entering into a 7 year agreement with the leader of a one world global government ?

 

[eclipsenow]

Ezekiel 39:21-29 proves Mr. Riddlebarger wrong in his overall view. Ezekiel 39 proves everyone wrong, but futurists, as far as a framework of events to take place in the end times.

Ezekiel 39:
v1-16 Gog/Magog event
v17-20 Armageddon event
v21-29 Jesus having returned to earth, speaking in the text.

Hi Douggg,
it's more that the experts I read see how the NT works with the OT than going through every single verse in Ezekiel to 'disprove' it as a timetable for you.

From 1 Peter 1 I get the view that OT prophets would have been astonished as to the shape and details of the grace given us in Christ. They hinted at so many of the details, like David in his Psalms and Isaiah in his work. But a Professor of OT stuff I know says God was using their prophetic voice in both addressing their local situations and eventually hinting at things in the gospel. So we come to 1 Peter 1:

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
​

Now been preached to you. The gospel of grace.

Hebrews: 1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.​

The OT fleshes out the problem of sin and expectation of sacrifice for sin and so many things. But it's the shadow. The reality is in the NT. Therefore, the NT interprets the OT.

But as you raised Gog, I'll copy and paste my piece on it for you as you seem to have missed it. It's like a case study for what's going on with the other passages you raise.

The first thing to note is that this imagery comes from Ezekiel 38 and 39, which itself was highly symbolic and not literal. Gog is a personification of enemy nations, much like Ezekiel does with other names like Oholah/Oholibah in Chapter 23. Gog is an ancient name from Genesis invoking powerful nations from the distant past. Gog symbolises all God's powerful human enemies. Now the judgement imagery is thorough and awful destruction - but not literal - because it's inconsistent and contradictory. Then the mopping up exercise with the highly symbolic seven months to bury the dead and 7 years to burn all the weapons (as fuel for Israel) is also inconsistent, because it takes 7 months to bury the dead but the dead are all going to be eaten by the birds of prey, etc. Also, seven means perfection: Israel is given the perfect amount of time to heal from her enemies.
Watch the Bible Project on this second half of Ezekiel for more context. 7 minutes (Nearly 1.3 million views.)

I think the Bible Project was under pressure to include the first 'literal' interpretation of this temple because of the huge rise of the various Millennialisms in the United States after the popularisation of the Scofield study bible. No other force (except maybe for Hollywood and the rise of The Omen movies etc) has shaped American eschatology as profoundly. But the Bible Project hints at the fact that they side with the symbolic reading of the temple - given that everything else in Ezekiel is symbolic.

Now, what does all this mean for a literal futurist reading of Revelation? Basically it adds no credibility whatsoever to a literalist future timetable for a war involving Gog. Ezekiel's Gog is as symbolic and metaphorical as it is in Revelation. Futurist literalistic assumptions - so desperate to plead the case for their 'literal timetable' - have run roughshod over the evidence we have from Ezekiel and Revelation that both books tell us REAL theological truths in profoundly symbolic language. The Bible Project (nearly 2.1 million views) shows how John includes Gog in a vast collection of all the symbolic metaphors of the enemies of God. Futurists read Gog as some sort of literal prediction to decipher. But seen in context, both Ezekiel and Revelation are clear that it is a symbolic genre of literature using powerful metaphors to preach theological truths to encourage all Christians, for the last 2000 years and beyond.

Reducing it to some sort of future timetable for the last 7 years is not sensible, robs it of meaning for the Christians of the last 2000 years, and will have Christians fighting over their literalistic timetables for all time to come. It even risks the paranoia associated with death-cults like Jonestown and the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas. It's got to stop! John was writing a symbolic sermon to his generation for ALL Christians to be encouraged, for all time to come.

 

[eclipsenow]

There is actually sufficient information in the Bible for us to establish the date when Jesus will Return. Using the simple addition of the given time periods and the known date of the Babylon conquest. I have posted this timeline and no one has refuted it.
That people like you don't like it, is easy to understand; it means they will have to experience the events of the end times.

So what's the plan after 2026 fails? 2030? How many backup timelines do you have so you can continue to play this game as this set of predictions fail? I mean, 2012 should have put you off this game... but for some reason you're still hooked?

(And the fact that no other futurists agree with you doesn't even make you blink you're so smitten with your own interpretation! )

 

[eclipsenow]

Riddlebarger is a typical 'wise and learned' person. It is impossible for him to know the truth of prophecy, Matthew 11:24 1 Corinthians 1:19-20

We've been over this.
You're so bad at reading the bible you can't even see that you've just claimed Riddlebarger isn't a Christian.

and Daniel 12:4 says no one will know the Prophetic truths until near the end times. Then; only a few will understand.

It's also a good thing that Revelation itself shows us Daniel's scroll being unveiled in the gospel itself - that we really HAVE been in the end times for 2000 years and counting. Which is another reason why the Lord could return at any moment! Part of Daniel 12 is a glimpse of heaven and the security God's new people will inherit there. But what is the mechanism and 'mystery' of Daniel 12? How does God do this? That's the mystery of Daniel 12 - and it is fulfilled and explained in the gospel events. How was God going to save a people for himself that would enjoy being with him forever - Daniel's future eschatology? Well, it was revealed by John himself in Revelation. But before we get to John, let's remember when Daniel said the scroll would be unsealed and the mystery revealed?

Daniel 12:4-9
New International Version
4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” ... 9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.​

Fine! The time of the end. That must be the end of the world, right? But what if that assumption is wrong? What if it's like rose tinted glasses futurists are putting on that somehow obscure what is on the page in front of them? Let's see how the New Testament talks about the times of the end.

Acts 2
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.​

That is, it has been the last days since Pentecost 2000 years ago - as the Holy Spirit poured out on them helped them fulfil Acts 1:8 - and important part of Daniel's mystery and scroll.

Acts 1:8 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”​

The focus of the gospel mission now is to get out and reach all people - the people at home, the neighbours you don't like, and even the ends of the earth. But is there more evidence the gospel events lead to the last days?

Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.​

What other verses speak of the mystery sealed up in the scroll?

Ephesians 1:88... that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.​

But that is ambiguous - mystery = everything under Christ - but when? Is there more?

Ephesians 3:3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.​

BOOM! There it is. Both Peter at Pentecost and Paul think there's this profound mystery in God's secret plan that is fulfilled in Jesus and explained as God's kingdom races across all the nations and cultures of the world. But wait, there's more!

Colossians 125 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.​

The mystery was disclosed to Peter and Paul and all God's people over 2000 years ago - he's bringing in all the nations into his kingdom. So what does John say, through his 'comic-book superheroes' language of Revelation? (Aka apocalyptic symbolism). Does John agree that the scroll containing the mystery of God was opened in the gospel events?

This next chapter is REALLY going to make futurists reconsider their positions if they are honest enough to read what the symbolism says, especially in the context of Peter and Paul's explanations above!

Rev 56 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

Boom - there it is! Revelation is a gospel sermon explaining gospel events and the suffering we live under now. The scroll is the mystery of God from Daniel - the mystery as to how he was going to rescue a people for himself. Jesus died and rose again, purchasing a nation of God from a people who did not know God. The Holy Spirit was poured out on the apostles over 2000 years ago to springboard the gospel into the surrounding nations. Peter said that was the last days - Paul says that was the last days and mystery of God - and now John says that was the last days and the meaning of the scroll.

The gospel events open up all nations to belong to God. That's Daniel's seal - and has been understood as so for over 2000 years. And I am profoundly grateful, as I'm a white Australian grateful to be called into the Kingdom of God from a people who were not God's people.

 

[Douggg]

The first thing to note is that this imagery comes from Ezekiel 38 and 39, which itself was highly symbolic and not literal.

Ezekiel 39 uses straight forward language, and is not full of metaphors like the two candlesticks and two olives trees in Revelation 11.

Ezekiel 39 is easily divided up in to three segments.

Ezekiel 39:
v1-16 Gog/Magog event
v17-20 Armageddon event
v21-29 Jesus having returned to earth, speaking in the text.

If I were to teach a course on the end times, I would not start with Daniel 9, Matthew 24, etc. I would start with Ezekiel 39.

Ezekiel 39 provides the "infallible" timeline framework of end times events. It is infallible because Jesus Himself is speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.

We never hear of end times futurist bible commentators recognizing that. Nor anyone who are not futurists in their eschatology. partial preterists, historists, etc.

You provide text to support your non-futurist and amil position. But the interpretation of all those passages, were made without first considering Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

Rooted and grounded in Ezekiel 39, then we should go about interpreting passages throughout the bible to agree with that infallible timeline framework of end times event.

When I first began pursuit of the end times, I did not do that. Because no-one was aware or noted that it is Jesus Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, nor pointed out the three segments of Ezekiel 39. But now that I know, I try to spread the word.

Ezekiel 39:
v1-16 Gog/Magog event
v17-20 Armageddon event
v21-29 Jesus having returned to earth, speaking in the text.

 

[Douggg]

The gospel events open up all nations to belong to God. That's Daniel's seal - and has been understood as so for over 2000 years.

Travel and knowledge have not been increased at its current phenomenal rate until the last 40 years or so.

 

[eclipsenow]

Ezekiel 39 uses straight forward language, and is not full of metaphors like the two candlesticks and two olives trees in Revelation 11.

Except that you didn't deal with a single part of what I wrote? You appear completely caught off guard by the fact that the whole Gog / Magog thing is being 'worked on' and reinterpreted by Daniel - let alone John in Revelation! Ooops.

Gog and Magog (/ˈɡɒɡ ... ˈmeɪɡɒɡ/; Hebrew: גּוֹג וּמָגוֹג‎, Gōg ū-Māgōg; Syriac: ܓܘܓ ܘܡܓܘܓ‎; Arabic: يَأْجُوجُ وَمَأْجُوجُ‎, Yaʾjūj wa-Maʾjūj) appear in the Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible, and Quran as individuals, tribes, or lands. In Ezekiel 38, Gog is an individual and Magog is his land;[1] in Genesis 10, Magog is a man, but no Gog is mentioned; and centuries later Jewish tradition changed Ezekiel's "Gog from Magog" into "Gog and Magog",[2] which is the form in which they appear in the Christian New Testament's Book of Revelation, although there they are peoples rather than individuals.[3]

The Gog prophecy is meant to be fulfilled at the approach of what is called the "end of days", but not necessarily the end of the world. Jewish eschatology viewed Gog and Magog as enemies to be defeated by the Messiah, which would usher in the age of the Messiah. Christianity's interpretation is more starkly apocalyptic: making Gog and Magog allies of Satan against God at the end of the millennium, as described in the Book of Revelation.
Gog and Magog - Wikipedia

Also interesting, Josephus saw Gog and Magog as a metaphor to play with.​

In Revelation we see Gog AND Magog as symbolic of all the world's military might assembled together - and yet despite all our assembled power - any contest will be over in nano-seconds. God's final victory is so all-powerful calling it a battle is silly it is so anti-climactic. And we see this contest between God and images of mankind's power again and again in Revelation. Precisely because it is not a literal, linear timeline - but a waltz that circles around and around certain themes.

 

[eclipsenow]

Travel and knowledge have not been increased at its current phenomenal rate until the last 40 years or so.

? No idea what point you're even trying to make here - and I don't really care until you deal with Gog and Magog properly.

 

[keras]

From a post you made #10 in Aug 2017...
The 7,000 year plan of God

"I have done that and have posted the proof of 6000 years since Adam, will be over in 2029/2030.
But there is a lot that must happen before Jesus Returns, exactly 2000 years since He commenced His earthly Ministry, in 30 AD."

I have corrected my mistake: the last 2000 years commenced when Jesus was acclaimed as King of the Jews and subsequently killed.

So; do you agree with it? Can you fault it?
Yes, a lot has to happen over the next 10 years. But just imagine the tremendous change to all the world when the Lord sends His fiery wrath and wipes out the entire Middle East and destroys our modern infrastructure. Things will happen quickly. And the naysayers will be confounded.

And the fact that no other futurists agree with you

Your wild and wrong pronouncements are worse than anything I have said.
The way you and other Amills and prophecy rejecters state how 'symbolic' and non-literal Bible prophecy is, or that it is past history, is far more assertive and rude toward anyone who doesn't agree with it, despite the fact you have no actual proof of your beliefs.

The Prophesies about Jesus First Advent weren't symbolic, neither were the conquests of Judah and Israel and their scatterings and regathering.
[The House of Israel; is not regathered yet]
Amill and partial preterism are wrong and will be shown as gross error, as the end times will soon show.

 

[eclipsenow]

Ezekiel 39 provides the "infallible" timeline framework of end times events. It is infallible because Jesus Himself is speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.

This raises 3 questions.

1. Are you saying any bits of the bible where it isn't Jesus speaking directly are not infallible?
2. Why do you think Jesus is speaking particularly in these verses?
3. Even if that were true, how does that 'date' this prophecy? It could still be about Israel returning home before Rome.

20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares the Sovereign Lord.

21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. 22 From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God. 23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

That reads to me as literally fulfilled by their return to the land under Persia.

We never hear of end times futurist bible commentators recognizing that. Nor anyone who are not futurists in their eschatology. partial preterists, historists, etc.

You know just repeating your position isn't evidence or data for your position?
Where's the evidence?

You provide text to support your non-futurist and amil position. But the interpretation of all those passages, were made without first considering Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

Again with the rinse and repeat - which I will just rinse and repeat out of my mind until you offer any evidence or data for your position.

Rooted and grounded in Ezekiel 39, then we should go about interpreting passages throughout the bible to agree with that infallible timeline framework of end times event.

Oh blah blah blah - prove your first assertion, then try and make an argument from it. As for the New Testament, it reinterprets promises about "The land" as heaven where we are to "Make every effort to enter into that rest" (showing Joshua did not provide 'rest' and security for God's people in the land) and Abraham travelled understanding that he did not seek that better country, but a heavenly one.

I'm pretty sure that if futurists just spent their time memorising Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews - like really studying these books, then they would recognise how the OT and NT fit together and how to approach OT prophets and the NT book of Revelation.

When I first began pursuit of the end times, I did not do that. Because no-one was aware or noted that it is Jesus Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, nor pointed out the three segments of Ezekiel 39. But now that I know, I try to spread the word.

Yeah, you do that pal.
But try proving it first, before just asserting it 1000 times!
(See what I did with 1000 there? It's Hebrew for 'a gazillion'.)

 

[eclipsenow]

But just imagine the tremendous change to all the world when the Lord sends His fiery wrath and wipes out the entire Middle East and destroys our modern infrastructure.

What about the Great Day of the Abandoned Vineyard, the Great Day of the Mighty Locust, the Great Day of the Food Roasted over Poo? I can't help but notice that you got an idea from texts about war, this 'fire' thing you're obsessed with, read a modern science text, and then went in search of that with laser like focus. Oh - and what did you find? CME everywhere! It's called Confirmation Bias and is a profound perceptual psychological trick that gets us human beings frequently. But here's the thing. I've offered evidence that many of the firey days you're talking about in the OT are in fact about war. Assyrians, Babylonians, others. They all attack Israel now and then. Then there's that verse from Isaiah that's actually about the brightness of God blessing Israel that you ignore and read how you want to.
But it's not just that. The profoundest irony is that you're the one championing we all sit back in awe at your 'discovery' of the CME in the OT prophets - and you're the one saying we need to read them 'literally' - when you ignore 95% of what they say! What about all these OTHER images? What about Ezekiel lying on his side for a year? What about the Great Day of the chopped up hair?
Help us oh great prophet - you with the vision who alone understands these Last Days.
What about the Great Day of the Food Roasted over Poo? When does that arrive?

As for the Great Firey Day - it just seems to happen again and again even in Revelation. I thought this was meant to be a linear timeline - not a waltz around and around certain themes of suffering in these Last Days 2000 years and counting? This 'Great Firey Day' you talk about in Revelation 6 certainly sounds not that great - it has to be repeated half a dozen times it seems! (But I actually think Revelation 6 is FAR more profound than a CME - but you've rejected that view the last 20 times I tried to share it. Because it challenges your whole approach to Revelation in the first place!)

Revelation 8: 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

Revelation 16: 8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Revelation 18: 8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Revelation 20: 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[Douggg]

In Revelation we see Gog AND Magog as symbolic of all the world's military might assembled together - and yet despite all our assembled power - any contest will be over in nano-seconds. God's final victory is so all-powerful calling it a battle is silly it is so anti-climactic. And we see this contest between God and images of mankind's power again and again in Revelation. Precisely because it is not a literal, linear timeline - but a waltz that circles around and around certain themes.

The straight forward language in Ezekiel 39 is clearly not a theme. Gog/Magog is an actual end times literal event, as is Armageddon.

 

[eclipsenow]

The straight forward language in Ezekiel 39 is clearly not a theme. Gog/Magog is an actual end times literal event, as is Armageddon.

Ah, reassertion without evidence? I guess I'll just have to copy and paste some evidence till you get the point. (Both about submitting evidence, not assertions, and actually dealing with this specific evidence.)

Except that you didn't deal with a single part of what I wrote? You appear completely caught off guard by the fact that the whole Gog / Magog thing is being 'worked on' and reinterpreted by Daniel - let alone John in Revelation! Ooops.

Gog and Magog (/ˈɡɒɡ ... ˈmeɪɡɒɡ/; Hebrew: גּוֹג וּמָגוֹג‎, Gōg ū-Māgōg; Syriac: ܓܘܓ ܘܡܓܘܓ‎; Arabic: يَأْجُوجُ وَمَأْجُوجُ‎, Yaʾjūj wa-Maʾjūj) appear in the Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible, and Quran as individuals, tribes, or lands. In Ezekiel 38, Gog is an individual and Magog is his land;[1] in Genesis 10, Magog is a man, but no Gog is mentioned; and centuries later Jewish tradition changed Ezekiel's "Gog from Magog" into "Gog and Magog",[2] which is the form in which they appear in the Christian New Testament's Book of Revelation, although there they are peoples rather than individuals.[3]

The Gog prophecy is meant to be fulfilled at the approach of what is called the "end of days", but not necessarily the end of the world. Jewish eschatology viewed Gog and Magog as enemies to be defeated by the Messiah, which would usher in the age of the Messiah. Christianity's interpretation is more starkly apocalyptic: making Gog and Magog allies of Satan against God at the end of the millennium, as described in the Book of Revelation.
Gog and Magog - Wikipedia​

In Revelation we see Gog AND Magog as symbolic of all the world's military might assembled together - and yet despite all our assembled power - any contest will be over in nano-seconds. God's final victory is so all-powerful calling it a battle is silly it is so anti-climactic. And we see this contest between God and images of mankind's power again and again in Revelation. Precisely because it is not a literal, linear timeline - but a waltz that circles around and around certain themes.

 

[Douggg]

That reads to me as literally fulfilled by their return to the land under Persia.

It can't be. Gog/Magog is latter years, latter days. Differently, the Jews began coming out of Babylonian captivity over 400 years before Jesus times.

Currently their are over 14 million Jews in the world. Half are curently in Israel, and half are in the nations.

Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds Matthew 24:31.

 

[Douggg]

I have corrected my mistake: the last 2000 years commenced when Jesus was acclaimed as King of the Jews and subsequently killed.

I just took a look at your post #10 in that thread, and I saw no change.

 

[eclipsenow]

It can't be. Gog/Magog is latter years, latter days.

So you say, but I see Daniel quoting and CHANGING an event in Genesis.
It means something when a writer does that! Who is the individual, and who is the land again?
What does the bible say?
Well, here's the thing.
It says both. In Genesis, MAGOG is a man.
In Ezekiel, Gog is a man and MAGOG is a country.
Is the bible contradicting itself?
Or is Daniel turning MAGOG the man into a whole evil country to represent something? Because that is the only way to explain why the bible would otherwise literally be 'contradicting' itself. But it's not. Daniel is saying something like "And then that Great Hitler country will be utterly defeated when we go back into the land, and the Nazi shall be gone." Something like that. Making the individual into a country, and bringing in another term for the regime and personifying it.

Differently, the Jews began coming out of Babylonian captivity over 400 years before Jesus times.

Nope - pretty much in exact fulfilment of Ezekiel actually.

Currently their are over 14 million Jews in the world. Half are curently in Israel, and half are in the nations.

They are all people Jesus died for and loves.
Other than that, I don't see anything theologically significant about the modern nation of Israel at all.

You have not proved why Jesus is talking in Ezekiel 39.;

Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds Matthew 24:31.

Except that his elect are totally different people in the NT! Jesus often and frequently reinterpreted OT themes and ideas. Now you appear to be telling him he's not allowed to do that, because YOU want to reinterpret HIM via your specific reading of an OT prophet. Please don't do that!

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Douggg]

1. Are you saying any bits of the bible where it isn't Jesus speaking directly are not infallible?
2. Why do you think Jesus is speaking particularly in these verses?
3. Even if that were true, how does that 'date' this prophecy? It could still be about Israel returning home before Rome.

I will deal with the second two questions. The first question, I am not sure of what you are meaning, and it goes off into another direction from Ezekiel 39.

Why is it Jesus Himself speaking in those verses? Because currently the Jews don't accept that Jesus is the Lord their God. When Jesus returns to this earth, they have changed their minds in the middle of the seven years following the Gog/Magog event.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

And Ezekiel 39:17-20 is nearly identical to the Revelation 19:17-18 verses, at the time of Jesus's return.

And when Jesus returns, he will rule the nations (the heathen) with a rod of iron. v21, Jesus had just executed judgment on the heathen who had gathered together to make war on him. His glory set among the nations, i.e. Jesus present here on this earth.

And when Jesus returns, he will send his angels out to gather the Jews scattered around the world, back to Israel, not leavening one in the nations, v28. Corresponding to Matthew 24:31. Matthew 24:31 also corresponds to Deuteronomy 30:3-4 (a great chapter regarding the blessing and the curse for Israel, depending on the choices they made).

Regarding your second question, dating the prophecy of Ezekiel 39. Ezekiel 38 indicates latter times, latter years. And when Ezekiel 39 is completely fulfilled there will not be a single Jew left in the nations.

 

[keras]

Help us oh great prophet - you with the vision who alone understands these Last Days.
What about the Great Day of the Food Roasted over Poo? When does that arrive?

Hey! Its too early for you in Sydney, only 6:45am now.

I am doing my best to help those who are seriously looking for guidance on the Prophetic Word. All free to read at logostelos.info

Maybe I am unique, in that there really isn't anyone, incl my wife, who fully agrees with how I present and set out Bible Prophecy.
What I do know is that I could not have done what I have in my own capability. The Lord has inspired me and He has surely blessed me in many ways.
Obviously the Lord has blinded the eyes and stopped the ears of many peoples, even His servants. Isaiah 42:18-20
This is the reason for the proliferation of theories and doctrines about what will happen. Those who have believed theories like the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, are locked into it, Isaiah 29:9-12, and no amount of proofs against it has any effect.
Only as things happen, will they understand, Isaiah 29:23-24, Isaiah 32:3-4
So that is how the Lord wants it. But I am sure that people who reject the unfulfilled prophesies; the ones obviously yet to happen, are making a bad mistake and it may be hard for them in the future.

As for cooking over dried dung; many peoples do that. At least the Lord allowed Ezekiel to not use human dung. Ezekiel 4:17