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Y'shua could NOT have chosen to sin

RC_NewProtestants

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So what does it mean that Jesus was tempted in every way as we are?
Was Jesus tempted to have sex with his mother or father or the 3 yr old down the street? There are people in the world who are tempted to those things. If Jesus was tempted in every way that people are tempted then he would have to be tempted to do things that are repulsive to most people just so He could be tempted like some are.

That is why when you look at the word for tempted you see that in Greek it also means tested. In other words Jesus was tested and shown to be without sin.
 
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RND

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Was Jesus tempted to have sex with his mother or father or the 3 yr old down the street? There are people in the world who are tempted to those things. If Jesus was tempted in every way that people are tempted then he would have to be tempted to do things that are repulsive to most people just so He could be tempted like some are.

Don't those thing all have to do with fornication? So if Jesus was at one time tempted to "fornicate" but just not in the way you described wouldn't that count as "knowing" about being tempted by fornication?

That is why when you look at the word for tempted you see that in Greek it also means tested. In other words Jesus was tested and shown to be without sin.

When someone is "tested" by Satan in "to have sex with his mother or father or the 3 yr old down the street" (or bank robbery or lying) is there a way out of that "testing?"

1 Cor 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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A test proves the result as in proving that someone has the ability to do something.

The funny thing about this is that if you asked this question in the general Christian area you would find that the vast majority do not believe that Jesus could have sinned. Today this is one of the uniquely SDA ideas. It was one of those ideas brought into the SDA church from the same source that gave us the "latter rain" as outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That is from Edward Irving.
 
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RND

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A test proves the result as in proving that someone has the ability to do something.

Or in the case of Jesus regarding sin, not to do something.

The funny thing about this is that if you asked this question in the general Christian area you would find that the vast majority do not believe that Jesus could have sinned.

Ah, theology based on the "American Idol" method. Let's go with what's popular instead of the "facts." Popular theology. You know RC I'll bet ya most people in the general Christian area don't crack open the scriptures on a regular basis.

Today this is one of the uniquely SDA ideas. It was one of those ideas brought into the SDA church from the same source that gave us the "latter rain" as outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That is from Edward Irving.

This idea of the impecability of Jesus is as old as the hills and is not a unique belief to any of the Christian denominations per se. It is neither unique to Adventist or part of their theological teachings as a denomination.
 
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Jon0388g

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I AM obstinate in that I will REFUSE to believe anything other than Y'shua being ALL G-d ALL THE time 24/7 and Unable to sin EVER.

The Scripture that has been provided only shows that Y'shua was TEMPTED which I agree with. There is NOWHERE in Scripture that says He could have chosen to sin, that is an Ellenism.

Being TEMPTED does NOT mean that he could have chosen to sin. G-d Cannot sin and Y'shua was ALL G-d ALL the time.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

"Ellenism" - I like that:)


Lebesgue, could satan tempt God the Father?

I'd be interested in your opinion on why/why not.


Jon
 
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Lebesgue

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"Ellenism" - I like that:)


Lebesgue, could satan tempt God the Father?

I'd be interested in your opinion on why/why not.


Jon

Can I be honest. I don't have an opinion I have to think.

But Y'shua was the SAME as YHWH and YHWH in the flesh so I suppose he could tempt YHWH but he wouldn't get very far with it as YHWH CANNOT sin, just like Y'shua, being ALL G-d all the time could not sin either.

Shalom,

Lebesgue
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Or in the case of Jesus regarding sin, not to do something.



Ah, theology based on the "American Idol" method. Let's go with what's popular instead of the "facts." Popular theology. You know RC I'll bet ya most people in the general Christian area don't crack open the scriptures on a regular basis.



This idea of the impecability of Jesus is as old as the hills and is not a unique belief to any of the Christian denominations per se. It is neither unique to Adventist or part of their theological teachings as a denomination.

Do you realize you are arguing against yourself. The idea of the impeccability of Jesus is not your argument you are arguing that He could have sinned.
 
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Lebesgue

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Or in the case of Jesus regarding sin, not to do something.



Ah, theology based on the "American Idol" method. Let's go with what's popular instead of the "facts." Popular theology. You know RC I'll bet ya most people in the general Christian area don't crack open the scriptures on a regular basis.



This idea of the impecability of Jesus is as old as the hills and is not a unique belief to any of the Christian denominations per se. It is neither unique to Adventist or part of their theological teachings as a denomination.

Sorry to day this RND but I don't see most of the SDAs I know cracking open the Scriptures regularly unless it is to "proof-text" to prove Adventism is right.

They seem to be content to read Ellen and believe whatever the Adventist pastor feeds them on Sabbath morning. Not a whole lot different from the Mediavel Roman Catholic Church is it?(except that Adventists don't persecute those they consider to be "heretics").

Shalom,

Lebesgue
 
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RND

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Do you realize you are arguing against yourself. The idea of the impeccability of Jesus is not your argument you are arguing that He could have sinned.

Right. I understood that, but did you? foolow along with the bold:

"This idea of the impecability of Jesus is as old as the hills and is not a unique belief to any of the Christian denominations per se. It is neither unique to Adventist or part of their theological teachings as a denomination."

Here's a digestible sentance RC:

The impecability of Jesus is neither unique to Adventist(ism) or part of their theological teachings as a denomination.

I was arguing for what again?
 
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RND

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Sorry to day this RND but I don't see most of the SDAs I know cracking open the Scriptures regularly unless it is to "proof-text" to prove Adventism is right.

You mean kinda like you not cracking open Maccabees and not knowing what it says about things you say you believe?

They seem to be content to read Ellen and believe whatever the Adventist pastor feeds them on Sabbath morning.

This is a gross generalization and argumentative without facts.

Not a whole lot different from the Mediavel Roman Catholic Church is it?(except that Adventists don't persecute those they consider to be "heretics").

Nope, we just wait for them to weed themselves out of the church. Self-pruning.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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I was arguing for what again?

I was hoping you could argue for what you believe rather then expecting us to tell you what you are arguing for. Impeccable means perfect and flawless. It does not mean someone who is tempted to sin because being tempted to sin is a flaw.

You seem to be arguing for the peccablity of Jesus.

see:
http://www.fbinstitute.com/McCormick/IMPECCABILITY.htm

THE PECCABILITY VIEW


As already stated this view holds to the idea that it was entirely within the range of possibility that the Lord Jesus Christ could have succumbed to temptation, and thus could have stepped outside the will of His Father at any time between His birth and His death on the cross. This means that during the whole earthly ministry of our Lord the eternal purpose of God was “up for grabs,” and that the redemptive plan hung in the balance while Jesus faced the tempter in the wilderness. This view further represents the earthly sojourn of Christ as having been one long, constant struggle on His part to avoid yielding to the enticements of Satan. It pictures the matchless Son of God as being on a constant alert in order to escape being tricked by Satan into departing from the perfect will of His Father.

The question naturally arises as to just what Scriptural proof - if any - can be cited by the proponents of this view. In order to give a strictly fair and impartial answer to this question, this writer attempted to do some research into their writings. But there seems to be very little material in print concerning this position. It is as though its advocates are mildly embarrassed for holding this ground - or at least would prefer not to stress their views in print

However, those who believe in the Peccability. of Christ have often given expression to the idea while speaking or writing about other things concerning the Person of Christ. On the basis of these statements therefore, we can establish the main foundations upon which they think to stand.

At the outset, it is not only interesting but highly significant that the postulates of this position depend largely upon so-called logical argument, rather than upon clear and acceptable exposition of Scripture.[3] Moreover, their “Scriptural proof” is almost exclusively confined to one verse of Scripture, namely. Hebrews 4:15 (which will be expounded later in this paper).[4] In pointing to this verse, they always give particular emphasis to the sentence: “He was tempted in all points like as we are.” They then argue that to deny the possibility of sinning on the part of Jesus is “to deny the clear teaching of this verse.” From this initial statement—which is by no means irrefutable— they further argue that “if Jesus could not have sinned, then His temptation was a farce, and hence, it served no purpose.”

In answering these two arguments, we point out first that this verse does not “clearly teach” the possibility of sinning on the part of Jesus, as we shall see when we develop the verse more fully. Secondly, with regard to whether or not any purpose could have been served by temptation in which the tempted One could not yield, we will also see that a great three-fold purpose was served.
 
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RND

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You seem to be arguing for the peccablity of Jesus.

No, only that He had the capability of sinning, not that He actually did or would have. RC, I don't agree with your cites POV.

From the article you quoted:

"Rather, it should be understood as asserting that Jesus was possessed of a holy nature, which not only could not be tempted to transgress His Father’s will, but which violently opposed all such suggestions."

Then why does the Bible say He was tempted? Maybe because He was? What was the purpose for the trip into the "wilderness" (what doe the wilderness represent) with Satan if God knew Jesus was for sure not going to sin? Was it more for us, or was it more for Stan to see that indeed the "perfect" will of God will be accomplished in His "perfect" Son?

Saying Jesus could have sinned or that it was possible for Him to sin is not the same as stating, nor should it be confused with saying that Jesus was without sin and did not Sin.

Jesus was without sin and did not Sin. That's not to say he couldn't have, it's to say He didn't.
 
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Jon0388g

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Can I be honest. I don't have an opinion I have to think.

But Y'shua was the SAME as YHWH and YHWH in the flesh so I suppose he could tempt YHWH but he wouldn't get very far with it as YHWH CANNOT sin, just like Y'shua, being ALL G-d all the time could not sin either.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

I appreciate your honesty. But, I think you should seriously consider that question before you make such strong statements about Christ Jesus.


Lucifer knows as much as we do that God cannot sin - by definition, it makes no sense. So, what would be the need to tempt the Almighty? Of course satan wouldn't dare approach the Infinite God with an impossibility.


The very fact that satan tempted Christ in the wildnerness experience was because Christ was fully man when He came to earth, and satan knew to foil God's plan would be to cause Christ the Man to slip. Then who could atone for mankind? The Word became fully flesh. Zechariah prophesied,

"And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD" Zechariah 6:12


God cannot be tempted to sin, and Christ was, and always is God Himself. Yet, He "emptied" Himself when He came to earth. Even more evidence, doesn't Scripture say of the Messiah,


"For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour." Psalm 8:5

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Hebrews 2:9


I don't know why you refuse to see it, but for me it really reinforces the enormity of the sacrifice, and the trial Christ had to go through to save mankind. I love Him more for this truth, and pray the Holy Spirit reveals it to you also.


Jon
 
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RND

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I appreciate your honesty. But, I think you should seriously consider that question before you make such strong statements about Christ Jesus.


Lucifer knows as much as we do that God cannot sin - by definition, it makes no sense. So, what would be the need to tempt the Almighty? Of course satan wouldn't dare approach the Infinite God with an impossibility.


The very fact that satan tempted Christ in the wildnerness experience was because Christ was fully man when He came to earth, and satan knew to foil God's plan would be to cause Christ the Man to slip. Then who could atone for mankind? The Word became fully flesh. Zechariah prophesied,

"And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD" Zechariah 6:12


God cannot be tempted to sin, and Christ was, and always is God Himself. Yet, He "emptied" Himself when He came to earth. Even more evidence, doesn't Scripture say of the Messiah,


"For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour." Psalm 8:5

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Hebrews 2:9


I don't know why you refuse to see it, but for me it really reinforces the enormity of the sacrifice, and the trial Christ had to go through to save mankind. I love Him more for this truth, and pray the Holy Spirit reveals it to you also.


Jon

Great post Jon.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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God cannot be tempted to sin, and Christ was, and always is God Himself. Yet, He "emptied" Himself when He came to earth. Even more evidence, doesn't Scripture say of the Messiah,

If that was the case then because as you say He emptied Himself then He was not God/man. Our common expression 100% God and 100% man would set us apart from the rest of Christianity and actually set you apart from the statement of the Adventist fundamental belief.

The idea that Jesus emptied Himself of divinity yet did divine things through the Power of God is an oxymoron. As the power is of God in either case He can't empty Himself of the power that He used.
 
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Jon0388g

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If that was the case then because as you say He emptied Himself

Because "I" say??

"But made himself of no reputation[kenoo - to empty, make empty], and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:7-8



then He was not God/man. Our common expression 100% God and 100% man would set us apart from the rest of Christianity and actually set you apart from the statement of the Adventist fundamental belief.

The idea that Jesus emptied Himself of divinity yet did divine things through the Power of God is an oxymoron. As the power is of God in either case He can't empty Himself of the power that He used.



Christendom, and Adventist Fundamental alike, all I care about is: what saith the Lord?

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me." John 5:30

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28


Christ plainly taught that all He did, He did through the power of the Father, and not of Himself. Thus, He was our example, whereby we also are partakers of the divine nature.


Did you miss the two Scriptures plainly stating Christ was made a little lower than the angels? Please explain this.

Also, please notice in my post I already stated "and Christ was, and always is God Himself." Immanuel translated means "God with us" as I'm sure you know.

This by no means takes away from the fact that, as a man, Christ was very much susceptible to sin. He learned obedience, and no guile was found in His spirit.



Jon
 
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RND

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Because "I" say??

"But made himself of no reputation[kenoo - to empty, make empty], and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:7-8







Christendom, and Adventist Fundamental alike, all I care about is: what saith the Lord?

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me." John 5:30

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28


Christ plainly taught that all He did, He did through the power of the Father, and not of Himself. Thus, He was our example, whereby we also are partakers of the divine nature.


Did you miss the two Scriptures plainly stating Christ was made a little lower than the angels? Please explain this.

Also, please notice in my post I already stated "and Christ was, and always is God Himself." Immanuel translated means "God with us" as I'm sure you know.

This by no means takes away from the fact that, as a man, Christ was very much susceptible to sin. He learned obedience, and no guile was found in His spirit.



Jon

Jon, what an excellent retort to RC. I am afraid that it will do no good in the long run because you have used the Bible in many places to express obvious fact. But that will still be ignored, as were your quotes from Psalms and Hebrews.

It is such a shame when people will deliberately ignore the clear word of scripture to advance their own personal reasoning and agenda.

I find it interesting, actually fascinating, that people will purposely argue against their stated view and beliefs in order to make a point that is contrary to their stated view and beliefs.
 
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Jon0388g

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Jon, what an excellent retort to RC. I am afraid that it will do no good in the long run because you have used the Bible in many places to express obvious fact. But that will still be ignored, as were your quotes from Psalms and Hebrews.

It is such a shame when people will deliberately ignore the clear word of scripture to advance their own personal reasoning and agenda.

I find it interesting, actually fascinating, that people will purposely argue against their stated view and beliefs in order to make a point that is contrary to their stated view and beliefs.

The Lord's hand is not so short, that it cannot save:)

We can only sound the trumpet and pray the Holy Spirit does the rest.


Jon
 
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Jon0388g

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If Jesus could have 'chosen' to sin, then God can (present tense) choose to sin. period! Otherwise you must believe that Jesus is/was not God. There's NO other option.

In CHRIST alone...

Divine nature cannot sin.

Did Jesus Christ come to earth with His divine-nature, or was He found "in the likeness of men." There is your option.


Jon



P.S: Has nobody yet seen the posted Scripture, "but was made a little lower than the angels". Sheesh anymore clear and its crystal:doh:
 
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