Your views on ecumenism

[hedrick]

As you probably know, much of the heat on communion between Lutherans and Reformed comes from Calvin's insistence that Christ's body can only be present in one place at a time. This isn't something I commonly hear in the PCUSA.

 

[ubicaritas]

As you probably know, much of the heat on communion between Lutherans and Reformed comes from Calvin's insistence that Christ's body can only be present in one place at a time. This isn't something I commonly hear in the PCUSA.

In your opinion, do Presbyterians have a sacramental worldview?

In the modern Lutheran context we don't focus so much on Christ's body being omnipresent, I actually think that idea is downplayed in importance (in fact there were disputes in the 17th century about this. I favor Martin Chemnitz's position that Christ's human body can be omnipresent, but isn't necessarily so). But we do emphasize that the bread and wine are transfigured by Christ's presence, and it's a significant part of modern Lutheran spirituality. Just as the bread and wine are transfigured, our lives are also transfigured.

 

[A_Thinker]

I am reminded of Father Girzone's excellent fictional account of ecumenism with one bishop leading each area's Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox and Methodist churches.

Was that "The Shepherd" ?

I've read a few of Joseph Girzone's books ...

 

[amariselle]

We will be on that day. That's what Christ was praying for. So in faith you are right. We will be one in him so we are one in him in faith. But as it is, even born again believers have their disagreements. Just look at Paul and Barnabas. There disagreement was so sharp that they had to split ways.

Yes, and yet they never stopped being brothers in Christ. I know that things are not perfect yet, and you’re correct, one day they will be. If we are saved and born again, however, we are part of the body of Christ and are one in Him. That’s all I was saying.

 

[The Times]

Ecumenism agenda within the 21st century constructs, will bring in the Abomination of Desolation and to remove the Daily Sacrifice.

It is the last hour!

 

[Kevin Snow]

Ecumenism agenda within the 21st century constructs, will bring in the Abomination of Desolation and to remove the Daily Sacrifice.

It is the last hour!

You may be right. Especially if they are looking to reunite without any doctrinal agreement but just forced...united pastoralship or something; and uniting all the wrong things too.

 

[The Times]

You may be right. Especially if they are looking to reunite without any doctrinal agreement but just forced...united pastoralship or something; and uniting all the wrong things too.

When the Abomination that makes desolate within the constructs of God's spiritual Temple is introduced, the Daily Sacrifice must be replaced with it, within the Church Establishment itself. Jesus is removed from his proper throne of authority and man is placed at the forefront, in conforming with the trending ways of the world.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Romans 12:1-2)

 

[Kevin Snow]

When the Abomination that makes desolate within the constructs of God's spiritual Temple is introduced, the Daily Sacrifice must be replaced with it, within the Church Establishment itself. Jesus is removed from his proper throne of authority and man is placed at the forefront, in conforming with the trending ways of the world.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Romans 12:1-2)

If I read you right I have to say I agree to all that. Except for the part "within the church establishment itself" Whatever "church" the antichrist is a part of will have nothing to do with the church of God. Pretty much as Catholicism is being totally absorbed into mankind and is losing any visible features of godliness so also will this syndicate be. That's why I'd call it a syndicate than a church.

 

[The Times]

If I read you right I have to say I agree to all that. Except for the part "within the church establishment itself" Whatever "church" the antichrist is a part of will have nothing to do with the church of God. Pretty much as Catholicism is being totally absorbed into mankind and is losing any visible features of godliness so also will this syndicate be. That's why I'd call it a syndicate than a church.

The Falling Away from the faith, requires the Church establishment (leadership) as the City of Peace (Jerusalem), opening the way for the unveiling of the Sons of Perdition. The final act of betrayal will be by those who profess Christ, yet sell him out. The Act of replacing the Daily Sacrifice with the Abominations of Desolation is by the Establishment themselves, who have been infiltrated by the enemy (The TARES).

1A day of the Lord is coming, Spiritual Jerusalem (Where God Dwells Pentecost), when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

The Church denominations and Assemblies will be infiltrated by the Sons of Perdition (Progressive Liberals), advocating conformance with the world and man's experiences as truth, rather than the authority of Jesus and his objective moral laws.

2I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem (Church) to fight against it; the city (Christ's Church) will be captured, the houses (Assemblies) ransacked, and the women (Denominations) raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle.

The exiled gentile nations (TARES) who trample the outer unmeasured court, when the time of the fullness of the gentiles comes, when they will break the power of the Holy People (the Living Stones), will signal the end of the preaching of the gospel.

This is the climax to the end, where the Man (Anthropos) of Sin (Sons of Perdition) will dethrone Christ and to place something else (Abomination of Desolation) in his place, in conformance with all the world.

 

[Man on Fire]

As Christians we are or should be one mind and one body.

God is a Square. Someone dwelling on God's Law and experiencing him may be aware of how God works. As a starting point he may need mainline Christian beliefs. Given he is talking to God, he may be aware of God's Law. Having doctrine that is wrong may hurt someone from finding God or it may allow in other spirits. A Church should be 100% right. The Bible asserts Truth.

God is a Square

God is a Square. In the 1950's or so, a square was someone who dressed well, was polite, respected his elders, was capable of following directions, and was probably set up to be productive and successful in life. The rebel, the Counter Cultural guy, saw "The Square" as lame. The Counter Culture was about rebellion. Rebellion against Judeo-Christian Tradition. Rebellion of man against God and into spiritualism, gurus, and new age. Rebellion of children from their parents. Rebellion of wives against their husbands. Rebellion against righteousness and good living, and embracing of sin and debauch and wickedness. God is a square.

In the US Military the saying is "Square yourself away soldier." This roughly translates into "You are Wrong," and "Fix yourself." A squared away soldier would be one that meets the standards. In the Army, if someone doesn't meet the standard, they get chastised or rebuked. The Counter Culture embraces moral relativism. Given there is no standard, it is hard to chastise and rebuke someone? No moral person is tolerant of everything. A man has to draw the line? God already had a line for acceptable conduct.

God is a Judge like a Judge in a Courtroom. He is your Honor or The Honorable. It is hip to be square.

 

[JoeP222w]

.

 

[mark46]

I have a much different attitude toward the various joint statements. I believe that they bear witness to the world that our differences are so much less important than our common faith. I'll give three examples. There are many more, for example the joint statements by Anglicans and Orthodox.

LUTHERANS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS
For almost 5 centuries, Lutherans and Catholics refused to accept each other as being Christian. After Vatican II, there were many discussions culminating with the Joint Statement on Justification in 1986. While many of the elders and congregants disagreed, this witnessed to the world that we are of one faith.

ORTHODOX AND ROMAN CATHOLIC
The joint statements at Rivenna (and later) witnessed to the world that we are of one faith, and carefully discussed differences including JOINTLY accepting the Bishop of Rome as the primus, the first among patriarchs (Moscow wasn't there).

EVANGELICALS AND CATHOLICS
Both realized the paradox and the open question. Was the Holy Spirit speaking to and guiding both faith communities. Or was one being lead the Evil One. They used the Apostle's Creed, and prayed and discussed together for months. The joint statement (actually a book) witnessed to the world that we are of one faith.

BOTTOM LINE
We MUST understand that our mission to the world is harmed greatly by giving the impressions to unbelievers that we are not of one faith. Open bickering is simply not acceptable.

I understand why this happens. I find it particularly harmful to split up faith communities because of different understanding of the definitions and requirements of the sacraments of marriage and holy orders. We share one faith and one Creed.

Hedrick, I think sometimes ecumenically oriented statements can simply be sources of confusion. For instance, our joint document with the Reformed churches called Marburg Revisited (I'm not sure if it can be considered status confessionis exactly, but it's been referenced enough), where we suppossedly agree that our different views of the Eucharist are merely acceptable diversity. And what are the fruits of it? Our kids are continuing to be catechized the same way they always have . So what was really done with Marburg Revisited? It's mostly two things 1) a gesture of goodwill towards fellow Christians with whom we share a great deal of theological common ground 2) a potentially confusing message and witness to the outside world about what our churches really believe, teach, and confess.

Lets put it this way. In our congregation some people bow at the Words of Institution or the elevation of the bread because we really believe Christ is present there. Some Presbyterians, no doubt, consider that highly problematic, flirting with idolatry. And yet Marburg Revisited can give the false impression these differences are mere trivialities and obscure differences that still exist within our respective traditions.

A Reformed Christian might say, so what? After all, typically Reformed concede less in ecumenical dialogues like this. But from the Lutheran perspective this goes closer to the heart of a sacramental worldview that pervades our theology, hymns and our liturgy.

 

[mark46]

We ARE all of one faith and one Church. The issue is that we cannot accept that fact.

My desire is That Everyone who believes The Nicene Creed / Apostles’ Creed be that We Are All One Church.

That We Are One as Jesus and The Father Are One.

 

[mark46]

Was that "The Shepherd" ?

I've read a few of Joseph Girzone's books ...

yes

I look forward to having one local bishop over Catholics, Lutheran, Anglican, and Orthodox with several patriarchs and one primus (one patriarch above the others). [I understand that many communities do not accept the ideas of bishop
and patriarch. I would think that the Methodist bishop would want to be included; I don't know about others].

There is no reason that this need lead to any loss of identity.

As I have said, I do NOT believe it is the world leaders of the various faith communities that prevent this from happening.

 

[The Times]

The Dethroning of Jesus

As Jesus said you shall know them by their works.

The removal of the Daily Sacrifice and the placement of the Abomination that makes Desolate.

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Time to choose between Jesus Christ and the unification ecumenical movement of faiths. The two do not mix.

What one world unified ecumenical church will yield itself to the authority of Jesus Christ?

God the Father said....."All authority I have given to my Son".

 

[ubicaritas]

Mark, despite the ecumenical dialogues and agreements, I don't see the LWF or ELCA having close fellowship with Eastern Orthodoxy. We are too far apart on ecclessiology, praxis, and ethics. When Patriarch Kiril of Moscow denounces western Protestant churches as abandoning the faith, I think that pretty much shuts down doors on dialogue.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

What are your personal beliefs on ecumenism, even in Christian churches?

It is the very foundation of the one world religion.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Maybe God is bringing about what I said. I read up on that movement and so far, there doesn't seem to be a focus on ecumenism with this movement. When apostleship is the very thing needed to do unite the churches you would think this would be their focus but rather they are focused on this:

So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. ~1 Corinthians 14:12

There is a clear emphasis on manifestations of the spirit and this has nothing to do with the authority of apostleship but rather the working of a prophet. So in my judgment they are prophets, not apostles.

The NAR is totally involved in ecumenicalism, maybe you are not paying close attention.

 

[amariselle]

The NAR is totally involved in ecumenicalism, maybe you are not paying close attention.

Yes. More and more Protestants and Evangelicals are joining with the Pope and Rome and the Pope is doing his best to unite all world religions.

Very very concerning. The Bible warns about this.

The problem is that Christians have been told that all division is evil and all unity is good. Many have also been told that doctrine no longer matters.

The NAR and the Ecumenical Movement is absolutely poisonous and heretical. Believers should have nothing to do with it.

 

[amariselle]

I have a much different attitude toward the various joint statements. I believe that they bear witness to the world that our differences are so much less important than our common faith. I'll give three examples. There are many more, for example the joint statements by Anglicans and Orthodox.

LUTHERANS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS
For almost 5 centuries, Lutherans and Catholics refused to accept each other as being Christian. After Vatican II, there were many discussions culminating with the Joint Statement on Justification in 1986. While many of the elders and congregants disagreed, this witnessed to the world that we are of one faith.

ORTHODOX AND ROMAN CATHOLIC
The joint statements at Rivenna (and later) witnessed to the world that we are of one faith, and carefully discussed differences including JOINTLY accepting the Bishop of Rome as the primus, the first among patriarchs (Moscow wasn't there).

EVANGELICALS AND CATHOLICS
Both realized the paradox and the open question. Was the Holy Spirit speaking to and guiding both faith communities. Or was one being lead the Evil One. They used the Apostle's Creed, and prayed and discussed together for months. The joint statement (actually a book) witnessed to the world that we are of one faith.

BOTTOM LINE
We MUST understand that our mission to the world is harmed greatly by giving the impressions to unbelievers that we are not of one faith. Open bickering is simply not acceptable.

I understand why this happens. I find it particularly harmful to split up faith communities because of different understanding of the definitions and requirements of the sacraments of marriage and holy orders. We share one faith and one Creed.

The Catholic Church has not changed in its official doctrines and traditions. Sacramental salvation is works based salvation.

Doctrine matters and cannot be put aside and dismissed for the sake of “unity.”