Your views on ecumenism

[Lik3]

What are your personal beliefs on ecumenism, even in Christian churches?

 

[Kevin Snow]

Firstly that's redundant since ecumenism refers to the unity in churches to begin with.

Nextly, we were obviously never meant to be separate churches ideologically. The churches were separated by land and peoples and sooner or later differences of belief and customs grow about.

I think we will certainly be united completely when Christ returns but as for making efforts towards that I think we already have done an exceedingly good job.

The only thing that can unite our differences is the fullness of understanding which is required to explain those differences of doctrine. And that takes a very strong hand of authority in Christ much like an apostle's authority. So until we have apostles again and God multiplies visions, then we won't be seeing any of those efforts really stick. It requires apostle authority to unite two separate churches.

 

[A_Thinker]

I do think that the Church should find a way to get along.

Jesus said to His disciples ...

"A new commandment I give to you, ... that you love one another as I have loved you.

By this will all men know that you are My disciples, if you love one another."

We should not allow differences in non-essential doctrines to separate us.

 

[Dave-W]

Very early on, the church started removing itself from the knowledge and customs of Judaism that birthed it. That started it down a path of increasing misunderstanding which only got worse over time; and led to conflicting misunderstandings.

The only way to put it all back together is for everyone to accept Rom 3.2-3 in concrete terms. If God entrusted the Jews with His word, then let the Jews be the arbiters of its interpretation.

 

[SpiritSong]

My church gathers many churches together every week to have a fellowship meal with all the folks in our small town. Each week a different church does the cooking in our kitchen and brings the food which is to be cooked. There is also a Summer Camp that helps out too. We even have one church that helps out from the next town over.

We also participate in a Vespers in the Valley Service every Wednesday evening and an Easter Sunrise Service every year as well. These are hosted by many churches also. There are other multi-church events too, where one church invites our church to worship with them.

All in all, I'd say we are an ecumenical community and there are about 10 churches here, in a town of 1800 folks or so. Pretty good, huh? God is so awesome when He brings us all together like this!

 

[A_Thinker]

The only way to put it all back together is for everyone to accept Rom 3.2-3 in concrete terms. If God entrusted the Jews with His word, then let the Jews be the arbiters of its interpretation.

Which Jews ?

 

[A_Thinker]

My church gathers many churches together every week to have a fellowship meal with all the folks in our small town. Each week a different church does the cooking in our kitchen and brings the food which is to be cooked. There is also a Summer Camp that helps out too. We even have one church that helps out from the next town over.

We also participate in a Vespers in the Valley Service every Wednesday evening and an Easter Sunrise Service every year as well. These are hosted by many churches also. There are other multi-church events too, where one church invites our church to worship with them.

All in all, I'd say we are an ecumenical community and there are about 10 churches here, in a town of 1800 folks or so. Pretty good, huh? God is so awesome when He brings us all together like this!

Sounds like your town is doing a good job of expressing christian Love ...

 

[Dave-W]

Which Jews ?

Messianic Jews, when we, as a movement, mature a lot more.

 

[dreadnought]

What are your personal beliefs on ecumenism, even in Christian churches?

I think it's healthy for different denominations to worship together once in a while.

 

[ubicaritas]

I have misgivings about ecumenism at times. Our church agreeing to altar and pulpit fellowship with the UMC seems premature, for instance, given the extremely loose nature of UMC confessionalism, if it exists at all. Plus the pietist background potentially makes it at odds with Lutheranism (especially the doctrine of Christian perfection and a different understanding of sin). And some of our agreements with the Reformed likewise conceded too much confessionally (even if I think Catholics and Reformed are closest to us in theology), amounting to a shallow kind of ecumenism where we simply sweep real disagreements aside in favor of idealism.

 

[Kevin Snow]

I have misgivings about ecumenism at times. Our church agreeing to altar and pulpit fellowship with the UMC seems premature, for instance, given the extremely loose nature of UMC confessionalism, if it exists at all. Plus the pietist background potentially makes it at odds with Lutheranism (especially the doctrine of Christian perfection and a different understanding of sin). And some of our agreements with the Reformed likewise conceded too much confessionally (even if I think Catholics and Reformed are closest to us in theology), amounting to a shallow kind of ecumenism where we simply sweep real disagreements aside in favor of idealism.

Ecumenism refers to the efforts made to unite churches over their doctrinal differences. Just having grill outs and ball games does not merit ecumenism. Agreeing to disagree is not ecumenism but actually making efforts towards coming to an agreement is ecumenism.

Therefore the shallow kind of ecumenism isn't it at all. So I agree with you. We must be sure to unite our real differences in belief through the authority of Christ. But as I said originally, this can't be done without apostolic authority.

 

[SpiritSong]

It has to start somewhere, and if is cook-outs that lay the groundwork, so be it.

Also, my church does definitely participate in joint worship services, in case I did not make the clear. Not only that, but sometimes funerals have more than one pastor as well, due to the person having gone to these services or being a part of the joint meals on a regular basis.

 

[ubicaritas]

At the heart of ecumenism, at least in the US, is often the American pietist ethos that doctrine is secondary and egg-headed stuff that is an obstacle to "real" Christianity. Early on in the 20th century American missionaries and politicians in the US started imagining an "American Council of Churches" in the belief that a lack of religious unity was somehow an obstacle to their notion of social progress, national unity, etc. And doctrine has tended to be in the crosshairs ever since, it is derisively seen as old fashioned, divisive, etc.

 

[SpiritSong]

My view is that we have One Leader, Jesus. How man interprets His Word is the problem. Also, translation of the Bible is such that there can be misunderstandings. Unless a person is fluent in both Greek and Hebrew, there is a lot of room for error. Hence the different denominations in some cases. The other thing, I think, that gets in the way, is that some folks place bigger priority on certain things in the Bible, ignoring others, while others place more importance on different things. That also can cause division between denominations. Just my opinion.

 

[Kevin Snow]

My view is that we have One Leader, Jesus. How man interprets His Word is the problem. Also, translation of the Bible is such that there can be misunderstandings. Unless a person is fluent in both Greek and Hebrew, there is a lot of room for error. Hence the different denominations in some cases. The other thing, I think, that gets in the way, is that some folks place bigger priority on certain things in the Bible, ignoring others, while others place more importance on different things. That also can cause division between denominations. Just my opinion.

Great. So the only problems we have is because of our human condition. In order to overcome them we have to be walking according to the spiritual nature which we've been given. As it says here:

For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? ~1 Corinthians 3:4

Only the apostles have this circumcision clearly in mind and we see that the people would have been divided then had it not been for their authority in Christ.

 

[A_Thinker]

At the heart of ecumenism, at least in the US, is often the American pietist ethos that doctrine is secondary and egg-headed stuff that is an obstacle to "real" Christianity. Early on in the 20th century American missionaries and politicians in the US started imagining an "American Council of Churches" in the belief that a lack of religious unity was somehow an obstacle to their notion of social progress, national unity, etc. And doctrine has tended to be in the crosshairs ever since, it is derisively seen as old fashioned, divisive, etc.

A good question is "Did Jesus ever elevate doctrine over love ?"

An example is in John 6 where He let disciples leave over His teaching on His sacrifice for mankind (i.e. eating His flesh, drinking His blood). Of course, one could argue that Jesus felt that, post-crucifixion, there would be increased understanding of this teaching ....

Can you think of other examples ?

 

[A_Thinker]

Great. So the only problems we have is because of our human condition. In order to overcome them we have to be walking according to the spiritual nature which we've been given. As it says here:

For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? ~1 Corinthians 3:4

Only the apostles have this circumcision clearly in mind and we see that the people would have been divided then had it not been for their authority in Christ.

It is significant to me that the Jerusalem church council opted to minimize it's requirements for the Gentile churches ...

 

[ubicaritas]

A good question is "Did Jesus ever elevate doctrine over love ?"

I think it's a false choice anyways. Doctrine does not create a lack of love, human beings evil hearts do that. One can be generous in their orthodoxy, or narrow and prickly. It's up to the individual, really, how they deal with doctrine. But merely being generous in ones orthodoxy does not necessarily create adequate ground for shared table/pulpit fellowship. Religions and churches are not only about truth in the abstract sense, but community. And every community has some sense of who they are. Hence why doctrine is important.

 

[A_Thinker]

I think it's a false choice anyways. Doctrine does not create a lack of love, human beings evil hearts do that.

But, can you define so much required doctrine, such that it becomes difficult to get everyone to agree on all points ?

Especially in this day that everyone has access to the scriptures ?

 

[ubicaritas]

But, can you define so much required doctrine, such that it becomes difficult to get everyone to agree on all points ?

Especially in this day that everyone has access to the scriptures ?

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying.

Religious communities and churches are more than Bible interpretation mills working de novo every generation. Generally, Christians read the Scriptures within some type of tradition that shapes the kinds of hermeneutics they use to interpret the Scriptures. That's why I think confessionalism has more integrity, because it makes this mechanism more explicit, which makes us capable of more self-reflection. It isn't reduced to a pure social or personality-focused movement.