Your view on predestination

[iambren]

"Now, the programmer can see the future, so He knows before he ever created the program which direction the line is going to turn every time it hits a point, but that doesn't negate the fact that he specifically designed the program so that the line would change direction randomly! In the same way, God designed us with the capacity to choose, and the fact that He always knew what we would choose does not negate the simple fact that He designed us with the capacity to choose!"

1 But God is not random,but He would be omnipotent to determine which way that "random" line went.

2 "Choice" is there yet it is moved upon sovereignty. Best example I heard: put a dog in a room that hasn't eaten in a few days,a room with a steak in the corner. Dog has freewill to curl up and sleep OR dash for the steak. I'm banking on the latter who set up conditions that will surely induce the dog a certain way.

 

[now faith]

Then part of his hard drive gets a virus called sin then the lines refuse to turn at all,thus spending eternity in one direction.
It was a employee who tossed in the virus.

Using the word predestined as a absolute term in a infinite universe is impossible.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Using the word predestined as a absolute term in a infinite universe is impossible.

What made you think the universe is infinite? Everything in the universe is finite. The universe is not God. The universe was created by God. Only God is infinite.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

1 But God is not random,but He would be omnipotent to determine which way that "random" line went.

I would add that it would be impossible for God to create or design or put into motion anything that he considers random. Randomness is just extreme complexity that we find difficult or impossible to follow or predict, usually because of the high level of disorder of the process. To suggest that anything can be random to God is to suggest that he is not omniscient.

Perhaps we need to coin the word polyscient for those among us who've been following a very knowing but not-quite-omniscient God all of these years.

 

[98cwitr]

Then part of his hard drive gets a virus called sin then the lines refuse to turn at all,thus spending eternity in one direction.
It was a employee who tossed in the virus.

Using the word predestined as a absolute term in a infinite universe is impossible.

Programmer foreknew all the viruses that was to occur, and created the program anyway.

 

[BBAS 64]

SBC, Abstract Principles:

II. GOD There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.



IV. PROVIDENCE
God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

V. ELECTION
Election is God’s eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life – not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ – in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

VIII. REGENERATION
Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.



IX. REPENTANCE
Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being, by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

A Southern Baptist Looks at the Biblical Doctrine of Election | Founders

 

[Skala]

Hi. I only learned about predestination recently(about a week ago), and I'm confused. I would just like to know how other baptists view predestination? Thanks

It's simple.

Every single person is guilty in God's eyes and deserves hell.

Predestination teaches that rather than sending us all to hell, God stepped in and chose to save multitudes of people, showing them grace and mercy, for his glory. He does this by sending the gospel message to his chosen people, and bringing them to faith in Christ during their lives, and the knowledge of their salvation.

In other words, the only reason anyone at all comes to faith in Jesus is because of predestination.

Without predestination, nobody would be saved because nobody would believe the gospel and everyone would land squarely in hell.

Consider Paul's testimony:

"He set me apart before I was born, and called me by his grace, and was pleased to reveal his Son to me..." Galations 1:15-16

And again:

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." Eph 1:4-5

 

[Avid]

It's simple.

Every single person is guilty in God's eyes and deserves hell.

Predestination teaches that rather than sending us all to hell, God stepped in and chose to save multitudes of people, showing them grace and mercy, for his glory...

Someone on these forums had offered a video clip from a sermon that stated, "If God had not chosen some, Heaven would have none!"
.

 

[Avid]

Programmer foreknew all the viruses that was to occur, and created the program anyway.

This simple principle is missed by too many people as they try to fit God into a mold they have fashioned.
.

 

[98cwitr]

This simple principle is missed by too many people as they try to fit God into a mold they have fashioned.
.

aka...idolatry!

 

[Skala]

Someone on these forums had offered a video clip from a sermon that stated, "If God had not chosen some, Heaven would have none!"
.

Absolutely!

Grace alone is the reason anyone is in heaven!

 

[FoxyRoxy]

I think simple logic can answer this question. Is God omniscient? If yes, then of course predestination is correct.

 

[98cwitr]

I think simple logic can answer this question. Is God omniscient? If yes, then of course predestination is correct.

That is of course assuming that God also creates us. Yes! On both accounts!

 

[corinth77777]

I believe God seen who would accept his son..in the future Becsuse He is Spirit His Son is spirit...and action of love are spiritual...He can look through love and find the calprit...or he can be any place at any time

 

[Winman]

How do sinners, slaves to sin, have a free will? The will of mankind is bound by their nature. An apple tree can produce nothing but apples. A lion given the choice betwixt a gazelle or a bale of hay will choose the gazelle every time. A salmon swimming up stream to mate, lay eggs and die, do so according to their nature. Sinners, in their fallen, depraved nature, have a will that chooses freely within the confines of their nature.

Change the nature, change the will. Only God can do this, and it's called regeneration. And that and conversion of the soul aren't the same thing.

I cannot tell you how sinners, slaves to sin have a free will, but I can show you from scripture that they do.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Here Paul thanks God that while these Romans WERE servants of sin, they OBEYED the gospel from the heart. Being THEN made free from sin, they BECAME the servants of righteousness.

This scripture utterly refutes the false doctrine of Total Inability. The scriptures themselves clearly show that sinners who are servants or slaves of sin have the ability to obey and believe the gospel, and that when they do, they are THEN made free from sin and become the servants of righteousness.

The problem is that people misunderstand what the scriptures mean when they say we are servants or slaves of sin. The scriptures are not saying that we are compelled to sin. A slave can disobey his master, a slave can run away from his master.

No, what is meant is that sin OWNS us. The moment we sin we are SOLD to sin and become his possession (sin and righteousness being personified). Sin now owns us like a slave that was purchased in the ancient markets, and sin's payment or wage is DEATH. No matter what you do, good or bad, sin is going to pay you death. You can disobey your master "sin", you can even attempt to run away, but he has the power of the law over you and can recapture you. There is no escape. This is what the scriptures mean when they say we are the servants or slaves of sin. They are NOT saying we are compelled to sin.

The moment we obey the gospel and trust Christ we are baptized into his body. We DIED with Jesus to sin (Rom 6:2-7). Sin no longer has any power or dominion over us. We are now free from sin. We are now bought by the blood of Christ and belong to him. Now we are the slaves or servants of righteousness (Jesus).

Being a slave does not compel your behavior. If so, being now the servants of righteousness we would be unable to sin. Obviously we can and do sin, even after we have become the servants of righteousness.

Calvinism misinterprets scripture resulting in error. Total Inability is completely false, Romans 6:17-18 proves this.

 

[Skala]

Calvinism misinterprets scripture resulting in error.

Easy to assert. Much harder to prove.

See? It's easy to make assertions, watch:

Winman misinterprets scripture resulting in error.

Well, would you look at that. My argument is about as convincing as yours was.

 

[98cwitr]

I cannot tell you how sinners, slaves to sin have a free will, but I can show you from scripture that they do.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Who forms a man's heart?

Psalm 33:15 he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

A man does not direct his own steps:

Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.

Proverbs 20:24 A person’s steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand their own way?

 

[Kazza Ah-O]

I am no great learned scholar but I do read my Bible. Here is how I settled this question years ago......maybe I should say, here's how the Spirit settled my spirit in regards to this.

1) God is not willing that any should perish. Up until a person's last breath, they have a choice of accepting or rejecting salvation. God is supremely merciful.

2) The words such as "predestined" speak of the outcome of the acceptance or rejection of salvation. Accept = heaven & eternity with our Lord.....Reject=eternity in hell, seperated completely from God (along with all the weeping, wailing & gnashing of teeth)

3) It is not ME that was predestined or chosen, it was the result of MY action that was predestined. What was chosen from the beginning is, I believe, God's desire for to all believe and be saved.

Just, me, and how I think....that's all.

 

[98cwitr]

I am no great learned scholar but I do read my Bible. Here is how I settled this question years ago......maybe I should say, here's how the Spirit settled my spirit in regards to this.

1) God is not willing that any should perish. Up until a person's last breath, they have a choice of accepting or rejecting salvation. God is supremely merciful.

2) The words such as "predestined" speak of the outcome of the acceptance or rejection of salvation. Accept = heaven & eternity with our Lord.....Reject=eternity in hell, seperated completely from God (along with all the weeping, wailing & gnashing of teeth)

3) It is not ME that was predestined or chosen, it was the result of MY action that was predestined. What was chosen from the beginning is, I believe, God's desire for to all believe and be saved.

Just, me, and how I think....that's all.

Reconcile this for me then, assuming you believe God is Omniscient: Why does He create people He knows will never believe prior to their own creation?

 

[Kazza Ah-O]

Reconcile this for me then, assuming you believe God is Omniscient: Why does He create people He knows will never believe prior to their own creation?

Hmm, you have made me think! Ow, my head hurts now. Ok, I hope I can put this into a way that makes some sense. I do tend to babble.

First, above all else, I love & trust God. Not in his relationship to me, but overall. He is bigger, stronger, mightier, more loving, more merciful, more a righteous judge, etc etc etc, than I can even comprehend. His ways are always going to be higher than my ways. He is THE ultimate of everything. (As my husband likes to say, He is "the All".) Some things I may question and wonder and ponder and even pray about if the need to know is hindering me somehow. For example, I still read the book of Joshua and cringe at how the Lord's instructions in certain areas were to kill & destroy everything. On a rational level, I think , yeah, ok, had to get rid of harmful influence. But on a heart level, I think of men, women, children and animals slaughtered and I cringe. But his will and love and compassion and yes, at times, anger were all towards bringing his beloved chosen people to a safe place....safe in all aspects. I still (probably always will) cringe when I read it....but I, with peace in my heart, accept it. That is how I have chosen to accept God and his ways. With peace and trust because no matter what I see, I know it is all meant to produce in me, the best of what he desires for me. Even difficulties. Understand what I mean?

Next, I think all people are born with the choice to make. Believe or not believe. Accept or reject. If you believe him to be a righteous judge, and a God of equity, then he must create all with the same playing field. And in my illogical emotional logic, I believe he creates every single person with the intent that all may come to the saving knowledge of Jesus. If they do not, it is with sadness that He will do what his righteousness requires. God cries over every lost soul. God made us creatures of choice. If he had wanted automotons, robots, Pavlov's dogs, then he would have created us as such. But he did not. He created intelligent beings that would choose to love him and not creatures that would do his will out of self preservation. He created beings that would choose to be obedient, to learn him and his ways, to be in relationship with him.

Lastly, in a similar vein of thought as yours, why would he have created Satan and his minion, knowing that one day they would rebel & cause a real hullabaloo in heaven, then going on to cause the scandal in the garden? Again, I believe t goes back to choice. They chose, their destiny is decided.

But mostly, above any argument I could think of, in my own heart, it boils down to trust. If I cannot trust him in one aspect, can I trust him in them all? And I believe I can.

(And yes, I can see you shaking your head. )​