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Your Thoughts on Creation & Evolution

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AV1611VET

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Since you attribute the origin of the universe to God, then explain the existence and origin of God.
God is self-existent.
pitabread said:
If you can't then clearly we're not talking logic are we?
Theologic ... as in theological.
pitabread said:
All you're doing is invoking "God" as a placeholder for lack of an explanation for the origin of the universe.
Either that, or God created it ex nihilo.
pitabread said:
And then deferring having to answer for the origin of God.
Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
pitabread said:
Our positions are entirely the same in that respect.
No.
pitabread said:
We're both starting with a mystery for which we don't have an explanation.
Science is myopic.

(Inquiring Mind, I hope you don't mind me butting in here.)
 
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inquiring mind

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Since you attribute the origin of the universe to God, then explain the existence and origin of God. If you can't then clearly we're not talking logic are we?



All you're doing is invoking "God" as a placeholder for lack of an explanation for the origin of the universe. And then deferring having to answer for the origin of God.

Our positions are entirely the same in that respect. We're both starting with a mystery for which we don't have an explanation.

I said Creation was the most logical option. You asked me why I thought it was logical. I've told you. Why don't you explain why everything developing spontaneously from nothing is more logical?
 
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pitabread

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I said Creation was the most logical option. You asked me why I thought it was logical. I've told you.

Consider these two scenarios:

Q: Explain the origin and existence of the universe.
A: It's a mystery.


Q: Explain the origin and existence of the universe.
A: God created it.
Q: Explain the origin and existence of God.
A: It's a mystery.

How can the latter be more "logical" if you're arriving at exactly the same answer?

Why don't you explain why everything developing spontaneously from nothing is more logical?

I never said it was more logical. I said that our positions are the same: they both end in a mystery.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Again, what do you mean by evidence or proof?
Well, for a start, let's contrast God with my parents. My parents love me, they call me up & ask me how I'm doing, they drop by on occasions & say G'Day, they care for what I'm doing & how I do it, they give me life advice & if I did something wrong, they'd be the first to correct me. To me, this is Evidence - albeit first-hand evidence - because of that, I'm confident my parents exist.

With a God, firstly, which God, or Gods are we talking about? I know of a few propositions from just among the people I know - Allah, Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva, YHWH, Jehova, all proposing their unique selling points on "Creation" - then there's also a proposition that we're in this on our own, and we have to look after ourselves, even if only until a God proposition can be verified. So far, none of the Gods currently worshipped have stepped forward to clear up the confusion and for some reason, whichever God(s) exist, doesn't even seem to care about not only all the different religions, but even vesions of the same religions that believe in mutually exclusive things about the same God! If there was a God, and that God had plans for us, and that God cares about having a relationship with us, then surely that God could at least put in a little effort like my parents do to let us know in person about him, couldn't he?

Let me put it another way. Imagine you were brought up in an orphanage, you learn from one of your fellow orphans that your parents are alive and love you dearly! You think to yourself, "Great! I'll get to live with my Real parents one day!" one kid tells you about how he has letters-from-your-parents, saying they're Millionaires and there's a Beautiful Mansion awaiting your homecoming when you come of age and leave the orphanage - this kid is adamant they're from your parents and he has their letters for you to read, and he keeps them safe for you and helps you understand them better for the small price of your cafeteria meal every now and then, particularly the bits you don't understand, like why they don't come get you now, and why they don't visit you personally, etc. .... but then another kid, this time an indian kid comes over, he says He has letters-from-your-parents too, they're completely different to the letters the first kid has, this kid tells you that your parents are from a commune that is self-sufficient in a tropical paradise lagoon, and the better you conduct yourself at the orphanage, the better off you'll be when you get to this paradise lagoon. the indian kid assures you of the beauty of this lagoon paradise, and it sounds Great! - same thing though, he asks for sweets and other knick-knacks to let you read these letters from your commune parents, they're nothing like the letters the first kid has, and this proposition has different but equally attractive post orphanage propositions..... then another kid comes over, he's an arab kid, and he claims he has yet another set of letters written by your parents, loosely similar to the first kid's letters-from-your-parents, but the arab kid's letters-from-your-parents are definitely different enough that one of the two sets will have to be wrong, but both are certainly nothing like the indian kid's letters from your parents... the arab kid also wants you to tythe some of your cafeteria allowance to look too. Now you have Three sets of "letters-from-your-parents" and none of these kids have any real evidence beyond their say-so that their letters-from-your-parents are real... How can you tell which one (if any) are from your real Parents? Why do all of them not have any evidence that they're from your real parents, and none of them make sensible cases for why you're still in that orphanage either...

.....and then an asian kid comes over......
I appreciate that, but we’re talking logic. What logic does it take to say everything just came about spontaneously from nothing for no reason? You have to admit that besides that being a weird occurrence, it’s also not very heavy thinking. Where’s the spotlight on it? The universe exists... therefore it must have been created... who or what could do such a thing besides almighty God... Now that’s logic, that’s the way you tell it.
What if we have no evidence whatsoever for the beginning of the universe? Why isn't "I don't know" the better response than an answer that can't be demonstrated and therefore could very well be the wrong answer? Assuming an answer before we can verify its substance is a show-stopper, it prevents you from looking for the potentially correct answer.
God had an origin?
Perhaps....

"It is said that men may not be the dreams of the god, but rather that the gods are the dreams of men." - Carl Sagan
 
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dad

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This doesn’t need to be a scientific or religious dissertation, simply what you feel about the subject.

For me, I love the Bible and science, but this wondrous universe coming about spontaneously from singularity (the meaning of which I barely understand) in a big bang, without the mighty hand of God; a “single cell something” rising up from a mud hole (primordial soup of some kind) “on its own” in baron, inhospitable conditions and becoming “the common ancestor” in a linear progression to the varieties of everything on a beautifully complex earth, including man... well, just step back from all the jargon and defense for a moment and look at that picture. I know there are a lot of Christians who enjoy investigating God’s creation, I do myself (my handle is inquiring mind), but how people are completely sold on that “one in a gazillion” possibility, and at the same time regard the biblical creation by an Almighty God (however and by whatever means He desired to accomplish it) to be a fairy tale, really puzzles me.
As I see it, even if God did create the universe in the BB, He is a liar. That doesn't fit with the bible at all.
 
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Consider these two scenarios:

Q: Explain the origin and existence of the universe.
A: It's a mystery.


Q: Explain the origin and existence of the universe.
A: God created it.
Q: Explain the origin and existence of God.
A: It's a mystery.

How can the latter be more "logical" if you're arriving at exactly the same answer?

Now, who's pushing back with another step?
 
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inquiring mind

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Consider these two scenarios:

Q: Explain the origin and existence of the universe.
A: It's a mystery.


Q: Explain the origin and existence of the universe.
A: God created it.
Q: Explain the origin and existence of God.
A: It's a mystery.

How can the latter be more "logical" if you're arriving at exactly the same answer?

The two scenarios are more like this:

Q: Explain the origin and existence of the universe.
A: It just spontaneously developed.

Q: How could something develop from nothing, on its own?
A: No logical answer, something from nothing by nothing is not logical, scientifically or supernaturally


Q: Explain the origin and existence of the universe.
A: God created it.

Q: Explain the origin and existence of God.
A: It's a mystery because no man can answer that, but that doesn’t make it impossible or illogical.
*** Therefore, this is the more logical answer.
 
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pitabread

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Q: Explain the origin and existence of God.
A: It's a mystery because no man can answer that, but that doesn’t make it impossible or illogical.
*** Therefore, this is the more logical answer.

If you don't have an answer then how can it be the most logical answer? Do you not see the contradiction in what you've stated?
 
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AV1611VET

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I don't see why not. If you're going to claim that God is self-existent then why not the universe?
Welcome to the world of faith.

If you believe the universe is self-existent, then you're doing it in spite of science, not with respect to it.
 
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pitabread

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If you believe the universe is self-existent, then you're doing it in spite of science, not with respect to it.

I wasn't aware we've reached a point where we can scientifically claim one way or the other.
 
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If you don't have an answer then how can it be the most logical answer? Do you not see the contradiction in what you've stated?

Either everything was created by an almighty God, or everything just spontaneously developed “from absolutely nothing” “on its own” for “no apparent reason.” You honestly can’t see that even the possibility of a Creator is more logical thinking than “something from nothing, by nothing.”
 
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AV1611VET

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I wasn't aware we've reached a point where we can scientifically claim one way or the other.
Until you do, enjoy your walk by faith.
 
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AV1611VET

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Either everything was created by an almighty God, or everything just spontaneously developed “from absolutely nothing” “on its own” for “no apparent reason.” You honestly can’t see that even the possibility of a Creator is more logical thinking than “something from nothing, by nothing.”
And they want us to believe that spontaneous generation was pwned decades ago?

It's just been given a new name ... that's all.
 
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Astrophile

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If the universe and life were uncaused, then everything just came into existence out of absolutely nothing. What kind of logic is that?

I think that you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that. Perhaps you could start by reading A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss, The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, and the last three chapters of Calculating the Cosmos by Ian Stewart.
 
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