Your stance on the Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?

[Spiritual Jew]

Does anyone have a third option?

The Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death, what does that mean?

I don't know of a third option. My view is the second option because that is what is indicated here:

Revelation 14:12 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

I don't believe this is talking about people being literally burned (this text is contained in the most highly symbolic book in the Bible), but it seems clear that they will experience conscious torment of some kind for eternity.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I'm happy with your choices.


Total annihilation.
Romans 16:20 - the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly
Hebrews 2:14 - He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

How do these verses support total annihilation when they refer to things that happened long ago already to Satan? Was he annihilated? No. Hebrews 2:14 said that the devil, Satan was destroyed or defeated by Christ's death. In what sense? In the sense that he had the power of death taken away from him which resulted in many being set free from the fear of death while gaining the hope of eternal life.

Psalms 92:7 - When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, It is that they may be destroyed forever.
Psalm 37:38 -But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

You are equating the words "destroyed" and "destruction" with annihilation, but that is not right. In these cases the words are used to describe unbelievers being separated "from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power", not annihilated.

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

This talks about unbelievers being tormented "for ever and ever" with them not having any "rest day or night". That is not a description of annihilation. If they were annihilated they would have rest for eternity, but this says they will not have any rest "for ever and ever".

 

[CoreyD]

So something that is spiritual is not literal, a person experiences a literal second birth.

I am simply trying to understand you.
So, you are saying that the second death is not everlasting destruction, literally, but a literal spiritual death, so that 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is not referring to physical death, but spiritual?

In that case, are you saying that the first literal spiritual death, which we were born in (Ephesians 2:1), which is followed by a literal physical death {Romans 5:12), is then followed by a second death - not literal physical, but literal spiritual - that Jesus puts us in?

Any believer should be able to answer this, when David was born again. David was born again the moment he believed in The Messiah for God's Eternal Life.

Are you saying that being born again, is "believed in The Messiah"? So, once a person believes in the Messiah, they are born again?
Can you show me where Jesus said that, please?

 

[CoreyD]

How do these verses support total annihilation when they refer to things that happened long ago already to Satan? Was he annihilated? No. Hebrews 2:14 said that the devil, Satan was destroyed or defeated by Christ's death. In what sense? In the sense that he had the power of death taken away from him which resulted in many being set free from the fear of death while gaining the hope of eternal life.

The apostle Paul lived after Jesus death.
He wrote these texts.
Romans 16:20 - the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly
Hebrews 2:14 - He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

I'm not sure why you think they are past tense, other than because you believe what you said. Aren't these scriptures in the future tense? Are they not about the future?

You are equating the words "destroyed" and "destruction" with annihilation, but that is not right. In these cases the words are used to describe unbelievers being separated "from the presence of the Lord", not annihilated.

You say that. I haven't read that.
I can't go with what you think, above what scripture says.

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

This talks about unbelievers being tormented "for ever and ever" with them not having any "rest day or night". That is not a description of annihilation. If they were annihilated they would have rest for eternity, but this says they will not have any rest "for ever and ever".

May I ask - Why do you take a highly symbolic book, which the writer directly says is written in signs/symbolism (Revelation 1:1), and you take the words of that text, and apply a literal meaning to them, even after the angel explicitly explained the symbolic meaning; then you take words uttered - not stated to be symbolic by anyone, and you apply a symbolic meaning to it?
That's something I would like to know.

 

[d taylor]

I am simply trying to understand you.
So, you are saying that the second death is not everlasting destruction, literally, but a literal spiritual death, so that 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is not referring to physical death, but spiritual?

In that case, are you saying that the first literal spiritual death, which we were born in (Ephesians 2:1), which is followed by a literal physical death {Romans 5:12), is then followed by a second death - not literal physical, but literal spiritual - that Jesus puts us in?


Are you saying that being born again, is "believed in The Messiah"? So, once a person believes in the Messiah, they are born again?
Can you show me where Jesus said that, please?

Have you ever read John chapter 3, if not i would read John 3.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The apostle Paul lived after Jesus death.
He wrote these texts.
Romans 16:20 - the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly
Hebrews 2:14 - He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

The Hebrews 2:14 verse is talking about what was accomplished through Jesus's death. Did you not look at the context of the verse? It seems that you are not in the habit of looking at the context of scripture.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

When you look at verse 15 as well you should see that Paul was saying that through His death, Jesus destroyed the devil. In what way? Notice it says the devil HAD the power of death. Christ took that away by His own death. What has been the result of that? Many people being delivered from their "fear of death" that kept them in "bondage". That verse has absolutely nothing to do with annihilation.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

I'm not sure why you think they are past tense, other than because you believe what you said. Aren't these scriptures in the future tense? Are they not about the future?

You need to learn to read more carefully. I only said that about the first 2 verses you referenced, not this verse or the other 2 verses. This verse is definitely future tense. The point I'm making about this verse is that it's not talking about annihilation it's talking about being separated "from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power". Someone doesn't need to be annihilated in order to be separated from the Lord's presence. Whatever the lake of fire represents, the people there will be separated from the presence of the Lord. Revelation 14:9-11 indicates they will experience conscious torment there.

You say that. I haven't read that.
I can't go with what you think, above what scripture says.

I am going by what scripture says. You clearly are not reading what I'm saying carefully enough because you thought I was saying all of the verses you referenced were past tense even though I said no such thing and was only referring to the first 2 verses you referenced as being past tense.

May I ask - Why do you take a highly symbolic book, which the writer directly says is written in signs/symbolism (Revelation 1:1), and you take the words of that text, and apply a literal meaning to them, even after the angel explicitly explained the symbolic meaning; then you take words uttered - not stated to be symbolic by anyone, and you apply a symbolic meaning to it?
That's something I would like to know.

It's not as if every word in the entire book is symbolic. That's taking it way too far. While the description of a lake of fire may not be referring to a literal lake of fire, what reason is there to think that a reference to eternal torment is not meant to be taken literally even if it's not referring to literally being burned with fire?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Do you believe that the devil, Satan, will experience eternal torment? If so, why would you interpret Revelation 14:9-11 in a different sense than you interpret this verse?

 

[Diamond7]

I don't believe this is talking about people being literally burned (this text is contained in the most highly symbolic book in the Bible), but it seems clear that they will experience conscious torment of some kind for eternity.

Whatever the torment is, it is to the end of the ages. When there is a New Heaven and a New Earth. Other than the second death we do not know what the lake of fire is.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

We know that God is a God of absolute Justice. Everyone will receive a good, fair, right and true judgement.

 

[Diamond7]

I don't believe this is talking about people being literally burned

I had an operation when I was 8 years old. I dreamed I was falling in a bottomless pit. Years later I came to realize the bottomless pit is a volcano. There is no bottom because there is a lake of fire at what would be the bottom. We see where the sky is darkened and the stars do not shine their lite. This all describes an active volcano. There is a literal understanding but clearly it is the spiritual that is most important

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Does anyone have a third option?

The Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death, what does that mean?

Annihilationism is a heresy that was condemned long ago. Annihilationism as a doctrine was condemned as heresy at the second council of Constantinople in A.D. 553. The protestant creeds flowing out of the reformation likewise rejected annihilationism (Westminster confession of Faith XXX2.1; XXXIII.2).

 

[Diamond7]

Satan? Was he annihilated?

He was exiled. Thrown out of Heaven to the Earth. Although I believe that Jesus paid the price for all of Creation. Because all of Creation is going to be redeemed.

 

[Diamond7]

How do these verses support total annihilation

The word in the bible is "destroy". Does that mean annihilation or not?

• Matthew 10:28 (New Testament, Bible): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Some interpret this verse to suggest the possibility of total annihilation rather than eternal suffering in hell.
• John 3:16 (New Testament, Bible): "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." The word "perish" is sometimes interpreted to mean complete destruction rather than eternal torment.
• 
  The concept of the destruction of the wicked in hell isoften associated with the theological position of annihilationism. Here are a few more verses that some individuals or groups interpret as supporting the idea of destruction in hell rather than eternal torment:
  
  1. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (New Testament, Bible): "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." Some interpret "everlasting destruction" as the complete annihilation of the wicked rather than eternal suffering.
  2. Revelation 20:14 (New Testament, Bible): "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." Some argue that the phrase "the second death" implies that the wicked will experience permanent, irreversible death rather than eternal conscious torment.
  3. Psalm 92:7 (Old Testament, Bible): "That when the wicked sprouted up like grass and all who did iniquity flourished, it was only that they might be destroyed forevermore." This verse has been interpreted by some as indicating the ultimate destruction of the wicked.

 

[Diamond7]

Annihilationism is a heresy that was condemned long ago. Annihilationism as a doctrine was condemned as heresy at the second council of Constantinople in A.D. 553. The protestant creeds flowing out of the reformation likewise rejected annihilationism (Westminster confession of Faith XXX2.1; XXXIII.2).

The Second Council of Constantinople is not universally recognized as an ecumenical council by all Christian traditions. Some Western Christian churches, including the Roman Catholic Church, did not fully accept its decisions, which contributed to ongoing theological divisions within Christianity.

 

[Diamond7]

11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

Forever and every means to the end of all the ages. This is when there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Second Council of Constantinople is not universally recognized as an ecumenical council by all Christian traditions. Some Western Christian churches, including the Roman Catholic Church, did not fully accept its decisions, which contributed to ongoing theological divisions within Christianity.

The Second Council of Constantinople is the fifth of the first seven ecumenical councils recognized by both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church.

 

[Diamond7]

The Second Council of Constantinople is the fifth of the first seven ecumenical councils recognized by both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church.

The Second Council of Constantinople is indeed recognized as one of the first seven ecumenical councils by the Eastern Orthodox Church, but it is not recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church. This discrepancy in recognition is one of the historical points of division between the two Christian traditions.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Second Council of Constantinople is indeed recognized as one of the first seven ecumenical councils by the Eastern Orthodox Church, but it is not recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church. This discrepancy in recognition is one of the historical points of division between the two Christian traditions.

Second Council of Constantinople - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Second Council of Constantinople

This council was held at Constantinople (5 May-2 June, 553), having been called by Emperor Justinian. It was attended mostly by Oriental bishops; only six Western (African) bishops were present

www.newadvent.org

The 21 Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church

A list of the 21 Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church which have defined Catholic doctrine

www.catholicbridge.com

 

[Diamond7]

The 21 Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church

Dante Alighieri's "Divine Comedy" is a medieval epic poem consisting of three parts: "Inferno," "Purgatorio," and "Paradiso." Each part represents a journey through different realms of the afterlife: Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven.

Book Three, "Paradiso," is the final part of the "Divine Comedy," and it represents Dante's ascent through the celestial spheres of Heaven, ultimately reaching the presence of God. "Paradiso" consists of 33 cantos, each of which corresponds to one of the nine celestial spheres plus the Empyrean, the highest and final realm where God resides.

Divine Comedy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Dante Alighieri's "Divine Comedy" is a medieval epic poem consisting of three parts: "Inferno," "Purgatorio," and "Paradiso." Each part represents a journey through different realms of the afterlife: Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven.

Book Three, "Paradiso," is the final part of the "Divine Comedy," and it represents Dante's ascent through the celestial spheres of Heaven, ultimately reaching the presence of God. "Paradiso" consists of 33 cantos, each of which corresponds to one of the nine celestial spheres plus the Empyrean, the highest and final realm where God resides.

Divine Comedy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I do not quite see how that relates to the 5th oecumenical council.

 

[Diamond7]

I don not quite see how that relates to the 5th oecumenical council.

The discussion has to do with how valid the council was. Also, there is debate over what the council really said. So you have a double whammy here if that is what you are trying to defend.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The discussion has to do with how valid the council was. Also, there is debate over what the council really said. So you have a double whammy here if that is what you are trying to defend.

It isn't what i was thinking about, specifically. It wasn't I who brought it up