Your stance on the Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?

Sorn

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Those two do seem like the most likely candidates. There is a 3rd option (though probably unlikely) that eventually ends up in eternal torture though.
So that would be that God creates this paradise place where He puts all the people that rejected Him. The only real differences between it and His Heaven is that He is not in this other place and the inhabitants of this other place would still have their sin natures. So in the paradise without God the selfishness, greed & other bad attributes of the inhabitants of that place would still eventually ruin it & turn it into a place of eternal torture except for the few that came, through power struggles, to rule it.
It would be very unlikely that any person would be a ruler there as the Devil & his angles would also be there.
 
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Diamond7

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So in the paradise without God the selfishness, greed & other bad attributes of the inhabitants of that place would still eventually ruin it & turn it into a place of eternal torture except for the few that came, through power struggles, to rule it.
I have heard the difference between heaven and hell is that in Heaven people help each other and in Hell everyone is on their own to fend for themselves.
 
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trophy33

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Does anyone have a third option?

The Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death, what does that mean?
I think its useful to consider the first and second death in the context of the first and second resurrection. It probably belongs together.

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them.
Rev 20:6
 
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d taylor

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Does anyone have a third option?

The Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death, what does that mean?

The second death is that unbelievers who never received The Life of God will remain permanently separated from God.

God's plan was for fallen man, who through Adam's losing his Life of God, was born with out the Life of God. But God made a way for fallen man/woman to receive The Life of God again, by belief in Jesus.

God did this so when, man/woman who has believed in Jesus, died physically, they have The Life of God. So they will be able to live in eternity with God, which requires a human to have The Life of God, to live with God.

The people who never received The Life of God can not live with God. So God has a place (lake of fire) for people who never received the Life of God to spend eternity. These people remain a sinner and will live on as a sinner permanently separated from The Life of God and living with God.

I do not see this as a torture in the since that these people will be actually be burning for all eternity.
The torture comes from just remaining a sinner and being separated for all eternity from the new earth and living with God.
 
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BobRyan

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Does anyone have a third option?

The Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death, what does that mean?
Some will find ways to claim that infinite torture is the right answer rather than something proportional to the crime.

Luke 12
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Rev 20 - each one is judged out of the books of record and recompensed according to his deeds done in the body 2 Cor 5:10

Matt 10:28 "do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul .. rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell"

And what about Satan? the covering cherub in heaven who has lead all into sin?

Ezek 28:


“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you
.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth

In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”
 
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Diamond7

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And what about Satan? the covering cherub in heaven who has lead all into sin?
My understanding is that he did not want to give praise, honor and glory to God. He wanted all of the worship & adoration for himself. That actually makes no sense to me because there is nothing better than to worship God.
 
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public hermit

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Does anyone have a third option?

The Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death, what does that mean?

A potentially viable and historically rooted third option cannot be discussed in this subforum. "Controversial Theology" can allow for such.
 
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Diamond7

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I think its useful to consider the first and second death in the context of the first and second resurrection. It probably belongs together.

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them.
Rev 20:6
There are people that believe they have to be joined back with their body in order for God to judge them.
 
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BobRyan

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My understanding is that he did not want to give praise, honor and glory to God. He wanted all of the worship & adoration for himself. That actually makes no sense to me because there is nothing better than to worship God.
You are right that in the big picture - rebellion makes no sense
 
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BobRyan

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There are people that believe they have to be joined back with their body in order for God to judge them.
In Job 1 and Job 2 - the court was making a decision about Job - without him being physically present.

In Dan 7:8-end we see that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" prior to the second-coming / appearing of Christ in vs 27.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I'm not sure what will happen to people but I think the Lake of Fire will be reserved for the devil and his angels at the very least.

I think they'll be immobilised in it, unable to move whereas in Hell they seem to have some freedom, even being allowed on occasion for tempation duty.

But at the end of time they'll end up in the Lake of Fire, which it somewhere states is like molten glass.

Revelation 20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Then there were the demons in the two men in the region of the Gadarenes, who shouted -

Mathew 8:29 (NIV) “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

God might be the creator of the butterfly, the colours of the rainbow and the early morning sun. But He also created tidal waves, earthquakes, hurricanes and Black Holes.

We don't hear much about His wrath these days.
 
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BobRyan

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I'm not sure what will happen to people but I think the Lake of Fire will be reserved for the devil and his angels at the very least.
True and Rev 20 says all the wicked are cast into that lake of fire as well.
 
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CoreyD

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Does anyone have a third option?
I'm happy with your choices.

The Second Death: Annihilationism or Eternal Torture?
Total annihilation.
Romans 16:20 - the God of peace will
crush Satan under your feet shortly
Hebrews 2:14 - He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Psalms 92:7 - When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, It is that they may be destroyed forever.
Psalm 37:38 -But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

The Lake of Fire is the Second Death, what does that mean?
I just created a thread on that question.
 
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CoreyD

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I think its useful to consider the first and second death in the context of the first and second resurrection. It probably belongs together.

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them.
Rev 20:6
That's very useful, thanks.
So, while the second death can affect those who are part of the second resurrection, the first cannot be affected. That does harmonize with scripture, since those having part in the first resurrection are immortal - 1 Corinthians 15:53-55
 
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CoreyD

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The second death is that unbelievers who never received The Life of God will remain permanently separated from God.

God's plan was for fallen man, who through Adam's losing his Life of God, was born with out the Life of God. But God made a way for fallen man/woman to receive The Life of God again, by belief in Jesus.

God did this so when, man/woman who has believed in Jesus, died physically, they have The Life of God. So they will be able to live in eternity with God, which requires a human to have The Life of God, to live with God.

The people who never received The Life of God can not live with God. So God has a place (lake of fire) for people who never received the Life of God to spend eternity. These people remain a sinner and will live on as a sinner permanently separated from The Life of God and living with God.

I do not see this as a torture in the since that these people will be actually be burning for all eternity.
The torture comes from just remaining a sinner and being separated for all eternity from the new earth and living with God.
Does this mean you don't see death as literal? May I ask, how do you view 2 Thessalonians 1:9?
 
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d taylor

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Does this mean you don't see death as literal? May I ask, how do you view 2 Thessalonians 1:9?

What do you mean by literal, is this, as in the unbeliever cease to exist. If so not i do not believe in that.

The second death goes along with the second birth, which is being born again. If a person is not born again spiritually. That is the person receives The Life of God, which is a spiritual birth, by faith in Jesus. They will experience the second death.

The second death is the lake of fire so the lake of fire is a literal place, so the second death is a literal event.

Did You Know That Everyone Will Experience Either Two Births or Two Deaths? – Grace Evangelical Society
Unlike John 3:3-4, here we have no one asking the obvious question, “Will a person’s heart and brain stop a second time?” No, that is not what is in view. The resurrected unbeliever will have a heart and brain and they will continue to function properly forever. The second death is not a second cessation of physical life. It is an eternal lack of spiritual life, or, conversely, the eternal experience of separation from God in the place where those who have died twice will live, the lake of fire.
 
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CoreyD

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What do you mean by literal, is this, as in the unbeliever cease to exist. If so not i do not believe in that.
Literal death, as in described by God at Genesis 3:19, as well as Ecclesiastes 3:20; Ecclesiastes 12:7;
What do you believe happens to the unbeliever when they die?

The second death goes along with the second birth, which is being born again. If a person is not born again spiritually. That is the person receives The Life of God, which is a spiritual birth, by faith in Jesus. They will experience the second death.
What you are describing here is, figurative death, rather than literal death.
This is why I asked the question. So, you do not see the second death as everlasting destruction - literally. Is that what you are saying?

The second death is the lake of fire so the lake of fire is a literal place, so the second death is a literal event.
You reversed it. The lake of fire is the second death.
The angel thus explains what the lake of fire represents, or means.
It's like when the angel explains the symbolic representation of other things.
Revelation 1:20; Revelation 5:6; Revelation 17:9, 15

If we reverse these explanations, we change the angel's explanation/interpretation of his own words, and it becomes our interpretation, rather than allowing the angel to explain what he meant.
We most certainly don't want to do that.

We must remember that God gave this message to Jesus, who sent his angel to present the message to John, in signs. Revelation 1:1

Did You Know That Everyone Will Experience Either Two Births or Two Deaths? – Grace Evangelical Society
Unlike John 3:3-4, here we have no one asking the obvious question, “Will a person’s heart and brain stop a second time?” No, that is not what is in view. The resurrected unbeliever will have a heart and brain and they will continue to function properly forever. The second death is not a second cessation of physical life. It is an eternal lack of spiritual life, or, conversely, the eternal experience of separation from God in the place where those who have died twice will live, the lake of fire.
Allow me to ask please. When did David receive a second birth?
 
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d taylor

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Literal death, as in described by God at Genesis 3:19, as well as Ecclesiastes 3:20; Ecclesiastes 12:7;
What do you believe happens to the unbeliever when they die?


What you are describing here is, figurative death, rather than literal death.
This is why I asked the question. So, you do not see the second death as everlasting destruction - literally. Is that what you are saying?


You reversed it. The lake of fire is the second death.
The angel thus explains what the lake of fire represents, or means.
It's like when the angel explains the symbolic representation of other things.
Revelation 1:20; Revelation 5:6; Revelation 17:9, 15

If we reverse these explanations, we change the angel's explanation/interpretation of his own words, and it becomes our interpretation, rather than allowing the angel to explain what he meant.
We most certainly don't want to do that.

We must remember that God gave this message to Jesus, who sent his angel to present the message to John, in signs. Revelation 1:1


Allow me to ask please. When did David receive a second birth?

So something that is spiritual is not literal, a person experiences a literal second birth.

Any believer should be able to answer this, when David was born again. David was born again the moment he believed in The Messiah for God's Eternal Life.
 
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