Your Not Word of Faith or Charismatic?

[MinJeremiah]

Many of the threads I see are crazy. I'm not gonna call any names or particular threads, but why do you consider yourself a Charismatic or Word of Faith believer? Why is it that I see all our leaders spoken against? Why is it that you don't believe in the two fundamental tenants of our movements such as the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and healing being part of the atonement; but still say you are part of the movement?

 

[lismore]

Many of the threads I see are crazy. I'm not gonna call any names or particular threads, but why do you consider yourself a Charismatic or Word of Faith believer? Why is it that I see all our leaders spoken against? Why is it that you don't believe in the two fundamental tenants of our movements such as the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and healing being part of the atonement; but still say you are part of the movement?

Hi there

Scottish Pentecostal here. I believe in speaking in tongues and healing in the atonement, of course.

Nice to meet you

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Many of the folks here are just against what they perceive to be extremes in these area.

 

[MrSnow]

Are those two tenets part of the charismatic movement or the pentacostal movement? I know that tongues being the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism is a pentacostal doctrine, but I didn't think that it was an overall charismatic doctrine. Then again, there are a lot of things that I don't know.

I think that people call themselves charismatic because they believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today and that they are part of what the church ought to be engaged in to spread the Gospel and expand the Kingdom.

I know that when I received the Holy Spirit I spoke in tongues. As to whether I should expect that from every person who receives the Holy Spirit, I really don't know. As to healing being in the atonement, I tend to lean against it, but like I said, there are a lot of things that I don't know (better to keep my mouth shut about things and look like a fool than to open it and remove all doubt, n'est-ce pas?).

 

[MinJeremiah]

Are those two tenets part of the charismatic movement or the pentacostal movement? I know that tongues being the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism is a pentacostal doctrine, but I didn't think that it was an overall charismatic doctrine. Then again, there are a lot of things that I don't know.

I think that people call themselves charismatic because they believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today and that they are part of what the church ought to be engaged in to spread the Gospel and expand the Kingdom.

I know that when I received the Holy Spirit I spoke in tongues. As to whether I should expect that from every person who receives the Holy Spirit, I really don't know. As to healing being in the atonement, I tend to lean against it, but like I said, there are a lot of things that I don't know (better to keep my mouth shut about things and look like a fool than to open it and remove all doubt, n'est-ce pas?).

Every official Charismatic, Apostolic, Pentecostal, and Word of Faith ministry that I am aware of have these listed in the tenants of faith as things they believe. Ministers from the Charismatic Movement like Derick Prince and Oral Roberts believed these things.

The problem I have is its like saying your pink, honk, roll in the mud, and calling yourself a dog. No your a pig! Why would you call yourself Charismatic, Apostolic, Pentecostal, or Word of Faith but don't believe in the core tenants as taught historically by these denominations and movements?

And these are not just things I suppose. I can and am willing to provide credible references on the beliefs of the Churches (Movements etc).

 

[ARBITER01]

Many of the threads I see are crazy. I'm not gonna call any names or particular threads, but why do you consider yourself a Charismatic or Word of Faith believer? Why is it that I see all our leaders spoken against? Why is it that you don't believe in the two fundamental tenants of our movements such as the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and healing being part of the atonement; but still say you are part of the movement?

Some Christians actually want to achieve this goal,..

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

If you are not worried about maturity and growth for this sort of end result, then continue to support your wof church.

 

[JimB]

Many of the threads I see are crazy. I'm not gonna call any names or particular threads, but why do you consider yourself a Charismatic or Word of Faith believer? Why is it that I see all our leaders spoken against? Why is it that you don't believe in the two fundamental tenants of our movements such as the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and healing being part of the atonement; but still say you are part of the movement?

Crazy? Maybe to you.

Do we all have to be cookie-cutter Charismatics to particpate in this forum? Could it be that some in this forum have just not bought into some of the doctrines other P/C’s have? Could it be that, maybe, they are less indoctrinated and have a clearer view of scripture than what they have been taught?

I mean, it’s a thought.

~Jim

If you ask enough people you’ll find someone who will tell you to do what you are going to do anyway.​

 

[Elijah2]

Many of the threads I see are crazy. I'm not gonna call any names or particular threads, but why do you consider yourself a Charismatic or Word of Faith believer? Why is it that I see all our leaders spoken against? Why is it that you don't believe in the two fundamental tenants of our movements such as the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and healing being part of the atonement; but still say you are part of the movement?

Mate, I don't consider myself Charismatic or WOF, I have myself listed as a Pentecostal, but as far as I am concerned, we are HIS Disciples, and the only tenants I try to move and live by is His Inspired Word, which I thought is the purpose, goal, and life of a believer.

The only movement I know is what they called those persons who followed our Lord Jesus Christ as the followers of "The Way", which became Christian.

 

[pdudgeon]

Crazy? Maybe to you.

Do we all have to be cookie-cutter Charismatics to particpate in this forum? Could it be that some in this forum have just not bought into some of the doctrines other P/C’s have?

entirely possible. but you will allow that they would be straining the definition of charasmatic if they did so, and others who do adhere fully to the charismatic beliefs would be remiss if they did not question such declarations.

Could it be that, maybe, they are less indoctrinated and have a clearer view of scripture than what they have been taught?

I mean, it’s a thought.

or it could also mean that they have voluntarily turned away from what they once believed into a different way, having left their former beliefs and practices behind.
They still have some mental connection with the tag 'charasmatic', but their belief, practice, and committment is no longer there.

it's kind of like the difference between being a fully dedicated and participating member of a church, and being a seasonal attender.

they follow, but they follow from afar off by their own choice.

i'm hoping here that as a minister you will understand that the questions come out of concern for you and others, and not from a place of derision.

the fact that there are honest questions being raised in regards to some statements of non-belief here in the forum should at least engender a momentary pause, and a bit of self-reflection from all of us as to where we stand now in our beliefs, and whether they have changed since we first declared ourselves as Charismatics or Word of Faith.

if anything this forum should be a means to strengthen our faith and not for causing us to doubt or to change it.

and finally (with a bow of thanks to Neph) we have this:
Romans 14:1-3, Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. the man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

 

[JimB]

entirely possible. but you will allow that they would be straining the definition of charasmatic if they did so, and others who do adhere fully to the charismatic beliefs would be remiss if they did not question such declarations.

---

or it could also mean that they have voluntarily turned away from what they once believed into a different way, having left their former beliefs and practices behind.
They still have some mental connection with the tag 'charasmatic', but their belief, practice, and committment is no longer there.

it's kind of like the difference between being a fully dedicated and participating member of a church, and being a seasonal attender.

they follow, but they follow from afar off by their own choice.

i'm hoping here that as a minister you will understand that the questions come out of concern for you and others, and not from a place of derision.

the fact that there are honest questions being raised in regards to some statements of non-belief here in the forum should at least engender a momentary pause, and a bit of self-reflection from all of us as to where we stand now in our beliefs, and whether they have changed since we first declared ourselves as Charismatics or Word of Faith.

if anything this forum should be a means to strengthen our faith and not for causing us to doubt or to change it.

and finally (with a bow of thanks to Neph) we have this:
Romans 14:1-3, Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. the man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

And it could mean that they have turned away from what they have been taught to a better understand of the truth.

For the record, I do not like to be labeled either Charismatic or Pentecostal (and certainly not Word of Faith) but I do speak in tongues, prophesy, occasionally receive revelation, heal the sick though not always in the manner I was once taught. That pretty much makes me “Charismatic” by some people’s (including this forum's) definition.
​

But I differ with most P/C’s in that I believe every Christian (not just those who speak in tongues) is baptized in the Holy Spirit from the moment of salvation (or else they would not be members of Christ’s body, 1 Cor. 12.13) and I believe that all the giftings of the Spirit—tongues included—are available to all Christians all the time from the moment they come to Christ (see here). I did not learn this out of some man’s book or from some denomination’s statement of faith.

A decade or so ago, I was pretty much steeped in P/C theology and even had a Word of Faith leaning (believe it or not) but, after a major spiritual meltdown when some of my belief systems did not measure up to their claims, I made the decision to scrap everything I had been taught and boldly go where no man (at least I) had dared to go—directly to God, and I asked Him to teach me truth apart from all that I had previously been taught. Much of what I learned, I discovered, was the truth but some of it wasn’t. On the other hand, some of the things, even the fundamental things, I had been taught were more the doctrines of men than of scripture. Much of my core beliefs changed and I lost friends and colleagues, even my denomination, over my changed theology. I am not saying I have a complete handle on truth (far from it) but I am trying to allow the Spirit, and not the teachings of men, to guide me into truth.
​

I would advise anybody to do the same … but if you do it is like crossing a river on thin ice and it will cost you. But what you gain in return no man can ever take from you.

~Jim

If you ask enough people you’ll find someone who will tell you to do what you are going to do anyway.​

 

[pdudgeon]

For the record, I do not like to be labeled either Charismatic or Pentecostal (and certainly not Word of Faith) but I do speak in tongues, prophesy, occasionally receive revelation, heal the sick though not always in the manner I was once taught. That pretty much makes me “Charismatic” by some people’s (including this forum's) definition.

no, actually it makes you closer to the definition of Spirit-filled, rather than Charismatic or Pentecostal or Word of Faith.

Spirit-Filled believes in one simultaneous baptism both for the cleansing of sins and for the infilling of the Holy Spirit; much in the same way as that which was experienced by the prophets in the Old Testament when the Holy Spirit came upon them.
and yes, they also believe that the gifts are for today and are desireable for all Christians.
Spirit-filled Christians are included here because this is a place where they can find sanctuary and support in their search for understanding of who the Holy Spirit is, and how He works in the lives of believers.
The work of the Holy Spirit today might not be taught in the denominational forums or in their churches, but they can come here to learn.

Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Word of Faith all believe in a separate Baptism for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, such as that which happened in Acts 2 at Pentecost.
the difference between them and the Spirit-filled believers is that the Holy Spirit Himself is invited into the heart of the believer in the same way that Christ is invited in. use and direction of those spiritual gifts we have been given is then yielded over to the Holy Spirit so that He may use them thru us.

 

[JimB]

no, actually it makes you closer to the definition of Spirit-filled, rather than Charismatic or Pentecostal or Word of Faith.

Spirit-Filled believes in one simultaneous baptism both for the cleansing of sins and for the infilling of the Holy Spirit; much in the same way as that which was experienced by the prophets in the Old Testament when the Holy Spirit came upon them.
and yes, they also believe that the gifts are for today and are desireable for all Christians.
Spirit-filled Christians are included here because this is a place where they can find sanctuary and support in their search for understanding of who the Holy Spirit is, and how He works in the lives of believers.
The work of the Holy Spirit today might not be taught in the denominational forums or in their churches, but they can come here to learn.

Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Word of Faith all believe in a separate Baptism for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, such as that which happened in Acts 2 at Pentecost.
the difference between them and the Spirit-filled believers is that the Holy Spirit Himself is invited into the heart of the believer in the same way that Christ is invited in. use and direction of those spiritual gifts we have been given is then yielded over to the Holy Spirit so that He may use them thru us.

Spirit-filled? Well, maybe sometimes. But who among us is really Spirit-filled 24/7/365?

It is my belief (and maybe where I differ from my beliefs in a previous life) that every believer is filled with the Spirit from the moment they are saved. We get the whole package right from the start (see here), they do not come in increments. However, I still believed that being Spirit-filled is like fuel in the tank—as we use our giftings, we need to be refilled from time to time but it is unlikely (IMO) that at any given time are we ever completely “Spirit filled.”

By saying that some Christians are “Spirit-filled” is to infer that some are not and it creates a tiered system within Christianity of haves vs. have-nots. I used to joke and say that I was 5/8-Gospel (instead of Full Gospel) because I knew I had room to grow. Also, claiming that one is Spirit-filled and others are not is saying that God’s giftings are given in increments as our maturity (or hunger, or sacrifice, or whatever) merit them. If that were so, then the Spirit would no longer be a gift of grace, but a wage based on merit. This creates a caste system of spiritual smugness among the “haves” that tends to look down its nose at the “have-nots” who have yet to attain the same imagined spiritual level we think we have.

~Jim

If you ask enough people you’ll find someone who will tell you to do what you are going to do anyway.​

 

[pdudgeon]

no, there is a difference that you are not understanding here.

both those who are spirit-filled and those who are baptized in the Spirit are fully Christians. Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are available 24/7/365 to Spirit-filled, Charismatics, Pentecostal, and Word of Faith.
that availability and power is not turned off and turned on at the source, it is constant, without end, infinite. it cannot be depleated because it's source is never ending.

so it's not a matter of 'how much" of the Holy Spirit one has, or how "filled up" a person is.
the only limits are on our understanding of the Holy Spirit, who He is, and how He works thru us.
There are no limits on God's side.

 

[Tenebrae]

entirely possible. but you will allow that they would be straining the definition of charasmatic if they did so, and others who do adhere fully to the charismatic beliefs would be remiss if they did not question such declarations.


.

Again, we miss the point that there are charismatics of traditional denominations that post in this forum.


I dont agree with most of the pentecostal teachers, I think many of them have fallen into error. That said, I believe that gifts of the Spirit are very much for todays church and the modern follower of Christ

Last time I looked acceptance and ahherance to the abuses present in many pentecostal and charismatic churches was not a requirement for being a charismatic christian

 

[Tenebrae]

As to the OP

There are charismatics from a wide range of denominations that post in this forum. Their theology and your theology is going to have differences.

 

[pdudgeon]

Again, we miss the point that there are charismatics of traditional denominations that post in this forum.


I dont agree with most of the pentecostal teachers, I think many of them have fallen into error. That said, I believe that gifts of the Spirit are very much for todays church and the modern follower of Christ

Last time I looked acceptance and adherance to the abuses present in many pentecostal and charismatic churches was not a requirement for being a charismatic christian

no one has missed that point. In fact, it is specifically included in the definition of Spirit-filled.

again, the main difference between Spirit-filled and Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Word of Faith is how they view the receiving of baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Traditional denominations hold with one baptism, thus being Spirit-filled.

 

[Tenebrae]

no one has missed that point. In fact, it is specifically included in the definition of Spirit-filled.

again, the main difference between Spirit-filled and Charismatic, Pentecostal, and Word of Faith is how they view the receiving of baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Traditional denominations hold with one baptism, thus being Spirit-filled.

em no, very much wrong

Some of the traditional denominations do hold to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Its what makes the difference between an anglican and a charismatic anglican or a catholic, and a charismatic catholic and so on.

I attend an anglican church that believes we recieve the Holy Spirit at moment of making a choice for Christ, and that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate experience used to empower believers. My church is anything but cessationist.

 

[lismore]

Last time I looked acceptance and ahherance to the abuses present in many pentecostal and charismatic churches was not a requirement for being a charismatic christian

Hello

That is an avenue better not gone down. Its not just pentecostal and charismatic churches that have abuses. All denominations have abuses, many worse than charismatic/ pentecostal churches. Man is imperfect and will always fail, only God will never let you down.

 

[enoch son]

this is funny try peaching a GOD OF LOVE!

 

[pdudgeon]

I attend an anglican church that believes we recieve the Holy Spirit at moment of making a choice for Christ, and that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate experience used to empower believers. My church is anything but cessationist.

we actually agree on this. and yes, a church that believes that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience would be considered Charismatic.