Your evidence for God, in another theist's hands...

[Clizby WampusCat]

All I have to go on is text, what you say here, but I don't know you. Since that is all I have to go on I may draw wrong conclusions, but all I can think is you were searching with your mind not your spirit. You have declared yourself an atheist so you are not a seeker, it is a hard position -and again we only have the text that you provide to go on.

No. I am a atheist because I am not convinced God exists. I am still open to the idea because I am seeking truth. I want to know what is true and what is false. I did seek honestly for the two years it took to lose my faith. I believed but wanted good evidence for my belief. None came after two years. If God wanted me to know he existed why did He not do this during this time?

"I then tried to find good reasons for my belief"
Do you understand that the spirit is not your mind?
It is the mind that wants reasons.

Yes. To believe something without reason is unreasonable to believe.

And when you say you were a believer, again I don't know what you mean by it.
Was it a head knowledge belief? That never lasts. When all you have is head knowledge belief the mind is always looking for the next thing to confirm it. This is why the Israelite's following Mosses were constantly up and down. God would do a miracle and they would believe but some time later they would doubt until God did another miracle. When Moses went up the mountain they couldn't even hold onto their belief long enough for him to come back down and instead made themselves a golden calf idol.
When the Israelite's marched around Jericho they didn't do that because they thought it was a well reasoned plan. They did it because the leaders trusted God and they carried out what he told them to do even though it must have looked stupid. Nothing about what they did there looked sane or reasonable. Faith is putting all our trust in God even when it doesn't appear to be reasonable.

I did this for 16 years. Believing in something without good evidence is is a good way to believe false things. I can believe anything with this epistemology. Why do you choose to believe the God of the bible exists without reasonable evidence?

"I was sincerely seeking and wanted God to exist."
And I am very sorry that you did not find God.

Well God had his chance, he still does. God has the ability to provide me the evidence I would need to believe. I can only conclude that he does not want me to know yet or that he does not exist.

God says you must believe that he is first.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Perhaps something was blocking your trust, again I don't know I can only guess.

Yes evidence. I cannot believe God exists without good evidence, no one can. So this requirement is not just backwards but impossible for many to do. Belief is not a choice, we cannot choose what we believe. I can try all I might but how can i believe God exists by just trying? Choose to believe the moon is made of cheese. I bet you cannot do it.

 

[coffee4u]

No. I am a atheist because I am not convinced God exists. I am still open to the idea because I am seeking truth. I want to know what is true and what is false. I did seek honestly for the two years it took to lose my faith. I believed but wanted good evidence for my belief. None came after two years. If God wanted me to know he existed why did He not do this during this time?

Yes. To believe something without reason is unreasonable to believe.

I did this for 16 years. Believing in something without good evidence is is a good way to believe false things. I can believe anything with this epistemology. Why do you choose to believe the God of the bible exists without reasonable evidence?

Well God had his chance, he still does. God has the ability to provide me the evidence I would need to believe. I can only conclude that he does not want me to know yet or that he does not exist.

Yes evidence. I cannot believe God exists without good evidence, no one can. So this requirement is not just backwards but impossible for many to do. Belief is not a choice, we cannot choose what we believe. I can try all I might but how can i believe God exists by just trying? Choose to believe the moon is made of cheese. I bet you cannot do it.

You said 'evidence' 5 times. So that would be the mind, which is all about evidence, facts, reason. With most things in life this holds true but not for faith in God.

It is the spirit that connects to God not the mind. The mind can learn scripture and doctrine but faith doesn't come from the mind. The Spirit has evidence that is experienced and felt.

The moon is a physical object, it is testable to not be cheese.
Physical things are easy to believe in because you believe in it with your mind. You believe your chair is there because you can see and touch it.

The mind is the soul while the spirit is something different and while they often work together there is a difference.
Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said:
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour."
Her praise to God came from her spirit and was expressed through her soul and body.
We are three in one because he is three in one.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You said 'evidence' 5 times. So that would be the mind, which is all about evidence, facts, reason. With most things in life this holds true but not for faith in God.

I never said evidence has to be facts or reason. There are all kinds of evidences, the thing is some evidence is better than others to base a belief on.

It is the spirit that connects to God not the mind. The mind can learn scripture and doctrine but faith doesn't come from the mind. The Spirit has evidence that is experienced and felt.

How can you determine a feeling is from God?

The moon is a physical object, it is testable to not be cheese.
Physical things are easy to believe in because you believe in it with your mind. You believe your chair is there because you can see and touch it.

Why does your standard of evidence change when it comes to non physical claims? We should have good evidence for what we believe no matter what the claim is.

The mind is the soul while the spirit is something different and while they often work together there is a difference.
Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said:
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour."
Her praise to God came from her spirit and was expressed through her soul and body.
We are three in one because he is three in one.

No one has demonstrated a soul or spirit to exist.

 

[coffee4u]

I never said evidence has to be facts or reason. There are all kinds of evidences, the thing is some evidence is better than others to base a belief on.

Well most atheists on here seem to think so since anything posted about our own or other people's experiences has been tossed aside. I tried to post about that once, not again.

How can you determine a feeling is from God?

A feeling or an experience will never contradict the Word of God.
Scripture warns about false signs and teachers.
Apart from that I don't know how to describe it. How does one describe how a banana taste to someone? Its difficult. But peace when you should not be feeling peace is one feeling.
Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Why does your standard of evidence change when it comes to non physical claims? We should have good evidence for what we believe no matter what the claim is.

As I said God is spirit and because he is he can only been known by our spirit. Just like we have eyes to see the physical world we have the spirit to connect to the spirit.

No one has demonstrated a soul or spirit to exist.

No one said we could. You won't demonstrate it any more than you can demonstrate God. But if you look around you will see the vast majority of the world are involved in spiritual matters in one way or the other.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Well most atheists on here seem to think so since anything posted about our own or other people's experiences has been tossed aside. I tried to post about that once, not again.

They are not tossed aside without good reason, they are unconvincing because the evidence does not support the claim. Personal experience is very hard to show it is true to someone else. I don't believe most of what theists claim as personal experience but that does not mean that the experience did not happen. It usually breaks down when you try to show the experience was connected to a God in some way. That is very hard to demonstrate.

A feeling or an experience will never contradict the Word of God.
Scripture warns about false signs and teachers.
Apart from that I don't know how to describe it. How does one describe how a banana taste to someone? Its difficult. But peace when you should not be feeling peace is one feeling.
Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

That is fine but then you need to show that the Bible is the Word of God. Feelings are deceptive and an unreliable pathway to truth.

As I said God is spirit and because he is he can only been known by our spirit. Just like we have eyes to see the physical world we have the spirit to connect to the spirit.

How can you show that we have a spirit?

No one said we could. You won't demonstrate it any more than you can demonstrate God. But if you look around you will see the vast majority of the world are involved in spiritual matters in one way or the other.

How is this good evidence the spiritual is true? The more people believe something does not make it more likely to be true. More people do not believe Christianity is true than do. This has no bearing on whether Christianity is actually true or not.

 

[cvanwey]

So long as your upmost goal is 'reason and logic' you will never find God.

I stated that I toss aside answers which either do not answer my direct response or defy reason and logic. Here, you did not answer my direct response. Maybe I should toss this answer aside.

I think you will find my epistemology very consistent. Although I am unsure of what claims you are referring to here.

I get the feeling anytime I talk to you that you are playing a game so I guess I reply in kind.

If you were to speak to someone you trust and admire, and they tell you God told them this or that, do you apply the same amount of faith that what they told you really happened (vs) if/when you speak to another person you trust and admire whom tells you Xenu told them this or that?

I have said this to you on a few occasions now.
You can only find God who is spirit with your spirit. The same goes for the mind and the body.
Spirit to spirit.

Mind to mind
Body to body.
Not to say when you hug someone that your mind is not also involved, it is of course, but you don't just hug them with your mind and expect them to know you have hugged them, do you? To connect to someone by a hug you have to do so physically and to connect to God you must do so spiritually.

I agree with your later comparison(s) (i.e.):

Mind to mind
Body to body

The "mind" is a virtual synonym for the word brain. Without the brain, there can be no
'mind'?

The body is physical. It can be called a body whether it be alive or dead.

WHERE is the spirit located, or where is it's origin?

Then you would have head knowledge just like the Israelite's had. What will that get you?

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Do you know how long their faith lasted? Hardly at all. Someone is sure to have counted up how many miracles God did for them and how many times they had complete disbelief. I can easily count 16 without even checking, but I am sure there were more. This was because their 'faith' was not faith it was head knowledge reasoning and acceptance.

I think you've missed my point. These 'demons' are not considered atheists, are they?

An atheist lacks belief that God even exists. An atheist is not someone whom thinks they exist, but decides to reject/rebel/other.

The one who is given sufficient knowledge of His existence can still choose to reject His offering. (i.e.) I have a choice of whether or not to apply my 'faith'/'trust'/'hope' in Him.

Yes you do, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Where is my spirit? How do I tap into my spirit?

 

[cvanwey]

Tried what for a long time? To search for God with your mind?

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Your friends and colleagues spirit is stirred, it is awake and searching. Like I said in an earlier post this is one proof (if the word 'proof' must be used) that the spiritual exists.
If the spiritual didn't exist you would not have all of these religions and experiences.
As I said in my first post, you can liken the spirit to another sense, but it is poorly working. So their spirit is indeed searching and it is finding and connecting to the spiritual side, but it isn't just God on that side so are angels and fallen angels. Unfortunately many people allow their spirit to reach out and connect to fallen angels. There is but one God, but many gods. Those gods are fallen angels. So yes, your friends and colleges are right, they have connected to various gods but not to God.

- I was a believer, or thought I was, for decades. The reason I state "I thought I was", is because I no longer believe He is real. Just as maybe a former believer in Santa Claus...

- Sounds like you are stating my friends and colleagues are victims of option 2) Maybe it is [your] "spirit" which is "poorly working"? Why is this not possible?

- A wise person once told me... Erase history, erase memory, eliminate most humans, and place the rest on a remote and secluded island. Sooner or later, they will start to worship something. Just because humans have the innate instinct to apply intentional agency, does not necessarily mean there exists something actually there to worship. It could also simply be yet another type one error, for which we all commit on a regular basis.

 

[Bradskii]

Well most atheists on here seem to think so since anything posted about our own or other people's experiences has been tossed aside.

If a Hindu or an animist were to try to convince you of their beliefs by using their own personal experience, would you accept them as indications that what they believed in was true?

 

[coffee4u]

They are not tossed aside without good reason, they are unconvincing because the evidence does not support the claim. Personal experience is very hard to show it is true to someone else. I don't believe most of what theists claim as personal experience but that does not mean that the experience did not happen. It usually breaks down when you try to show the experience was connected to a God in some way. That is very hard to demonstrate.

And what 'evidence' can we put in text about a personal experience that we are recounting exactly? Do you expect the text to glow at you off the page?
You either accept what we say or not, but don't ask for it if you don't want to hear it.
At least you acknowledge that it is difficult to demonstrate. Most here don't even do that but seem to think we can wave magic off a page of text on the internet.

That is fine but then you need to show that the Bible is the Word of God. Feelings are deceptive and an unreliable pathway to truth.

Feelings certainly can be deceptive, God agrees with you on that point.
Jeremiah 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

The Bible claims to be God's breathed word, you believe it or not.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

How can you show that we have a spirit?

We can't. You can't see or touch your spirit the same way you can't see or touch God. There are spiritual things and there are earthy physical things.
John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

How is this good evidence the spiritual is true? The more people believe something does not make it more likely to be true. More people do not believe Christianity is true than do. This has no bearing on whether Christianity is actually true or not.

As I said the spiritual is not just God. It's God, angels and fallen angels. Spiritual matters whether they are connected to God or to fallen angels are widely practiced by the majority of people across the world. if there was nothing there why would so many practice some form of religion or spirituality?
People may be well dressed and attending a church or they could be in some far flung forest worshiping a volcano or a group of people into the new age reading tarot cards and hanging up crystals. These are all people trying to contact the spiritual world in some way. Each looks very different but the reason they are pursuing these things at all is because they feel the pull of the spirit. Since your experience is personal to you there is no hard and fast evidence. If there was everyone here including you would believe in the existence of God.

 

[coffee4u]

post

I stated that I toss aside answers which either do not answer my direct response or defy reason and logic. Here, you did not answer my direct response. Maybe I should toss this answer aside.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

If you were to speak to someone you trust and admire, and they tell you God told them this or that, do you apply the same amount of faith that what they told you really happened (vs) if/when you speak to another person you trust and admire whom tells you Xenu told them this or that?

I would tell them that what they heard or feel must align with scripture. That is the guide God gave us for navigating the spiritual.

I agree with your later comparison(s) (i.e.):

Mind to mind
Body to body

The "mind" is a virtual synonym for the word brain. Without the brain, there can be no
'mind'?

The body is physical. It can be called a body whether it be alive or dead.

WHERE is the spirit located, or where is it's origin?

God breathed in the spirit and like God it is unseeable and untouchable. The spirit is there to contact the spiritual, that is its only purpose.

I think you've missed my point. These 'demons' are not considered atheists, are they?

Atheists are people, demons are fallen angels.

An atheist lacks belief that God even exists. An atheist is not someone whom thinks they exist, but decides to reject/rebel/other.

The one who is given sufficient knowledge of His existence can still choose to reject His offering. (i.e.) I have a choice of whether or not to apply my 'faith'/'trust'/'hope' in Him.

Yes its your choice to reject or accept.

Where is my spirit? How do I tap into my spirit?
You have to truly want a relationship with God for a start.

 

[coffee4u]

If a Hindu or an animist were to try to convince you of their beliefs by using their own personal experience, would you accept them as indications that what they believed in was true?

I would believe that they made contact with the spiritual realm. That comprises of God, angels and fallen angels. Fallen angles are only too ready to grant 'experiences.'

 

[coffee4u]

- I was a believer, or thought I was, for decades.

You had head knowledge belief. Ever read the parable of the sower?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You had head knowledge belief. Ever read the parable of the sower?

You can’t possibly know that. You want us to believe your personal experience but you waive away our personal experience.

 

[coffee4u]

You can’t possibly know that. You want us to believe your personal experience but you waive away our personal experience.

Jesus said there are four types of belief.
Matthew 13
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

 

[Bradskii]

I would believe that they made contact with the spiritual realm. That comprises of God, angels and fallen angels. Fallen angles are only too ready to grant 'experiences.'

But their personal experiences will reflect the 'spiritual realm' of their specific religion. Which are many and varied. They would use those experiences to deny the validity of your experiences.

If I was looking for someone who epitomised the validity of their beliefs then India and S.E. Asia would be where I'd look. Places where religion is inseparable from everyday life. Places where religion is reflected in everyday interactions. It seems so entirely natural. Which is so dramatically different from countries where the dominent religion is some form of Christianity (including the US).

 

[coffee4u]

But their personal experiences will reflect the 'spiritual realm' of their specific religion.

I agree.
People can connect to fallen angels instead of God and many do.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
That is what Satan does, he deceives.

Which are many and varied. They would use those experiences to deny the validity of your experiences.

They might.

If I was looking for someone who epitomised the validity of their beliefs then India and S.E. Asia would be where I'd look. Places where religion is inseparable from everyday life. Places where religion is reflected in everyday interactions. It seems so entirely natural. Which is so dramatically different from countries where the dominent religion is some form of Christianity (including the US).

That's a generalization and one thing about those is they are always going to be incorrect. You don't know every single Christian to know how each individual lives their life.

There are many 'Christians' but not many Christians. Being a Christian is spiritual, it is not head faith or something you get baptized into or because your family is or a set of rules to follow. People call themselves Christian in the west without actually being Christian, its become a label. People likewise call themself Jewish also without actually practicing it and I bet there are Muslims who do to.

 

[Bradskii]

That is what Satan does, he deceives.

That's a generalization and one thing about those is they are always going to be incorrect. You don't know every single Christian to know how each individual lives their life.

I'll suggest again that it seems that those who say that satan and/or angels can deceive never seem to consider that they themselves are being deceived.

And as for a generalisation, let's say that someone has spent time travelling around a Christian country like...the USA for example? And has also done the same in India, S.E. Asia and the Middle East. And has found a significant difference in how people live their day to day lives as it relates to their religion. Not on an individual v individual basis (although the most genuinely devout people I have known have not been Christian), but as a general comment on how people in other parts of the world view their beliefs.

There's a depth and committment that is missing in places like, for example, the USA.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

And what 'evidence' can we put in text about a personal experience that we are recounting exactly? Do you expect the text to glow at you off the page?
You either accept what we say or not, but don't ask for it if you don't want to hear it.
At least you acknowledge that it is difficult to demonstrate. Most here don't even do that but seem to think we can wave magic off a page of text on the internet.

That is the point. If you cannot demonstrate that your personal experience with God is real then I am not going to believe you. I am not saying that it is untrue or that you did not experience anything. Don't be offended, it is the nature of the claim. The claim is extraordinary and requires more evidence than if you said you own a white car. If my mother told me this I would not believe her based on her testimony either.

The Bible claims to be God's breathed word, you believe it or not.

I know what the bible says I just don't think there is sufficient evidence to believe it was god breathed.

We can't. You can't see or touch your spirit the same way you can't see or touch God. There are spiritual things and there are earthy physical things.

Then why believe it exists?

As I said the spiritual is not just God. It's God, angels and fallen angels. Spiritual matters whether they are connected to God or to fallen angels are widely practiced by the majority of people across the world. if there was nothing there why would so many practice some form of religion or spirituality?
People may be well dressed and attending a church or they could be in some far flung forest worshiping a volcano or a group of people into the new age reading tarot cards and hanging up crystals. These are all people trying to contact the spiritual world in some way. Each looks very different but the reason they are pursuing these things at all is because they feel the pull of the spirit. Since your experience is personal to you there is no hard and fast evidence. If there was everyone here including you would believe in the existence of God.

You need to demonstrate your claim that they are all feeling the pull of the spirit. Like I said just because most people believe the spiritual exists is not good evidence that it is true.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Jesus said there are four types of belief.
Matthew 13
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Yes, I know what the bible says. Like I said, you want us to believe your personal experiences are true but not believe our personal experiences are true.

 

[mindlight]

What if a believer in a different God told you they had the same reasons for believing in their God as you do for believing in yours? Would you then believe in their God?

And if a third party asked you which of the two of you were correct, would you be able to show them that you were?

The cross and resurrection and the incarnation of God as Christ would be the most powerful evidence of God's existence and the only reason for any kind of assurance about faith. No other God has shown that love in history and provided a credible mechanism for our redemption. The Christian God is distinguished from the others by actually coming into history to save us and sharing our humanity. Islam's god is remote and angry, the gods of the Hindus are just not credible in historical terms and all the other religions are also-rans in this competition for our souls.