Your evidence for God, in another theist's hands...

[rockytopva]

Prove that the spiritual exist

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. - 1 John 1:5

Unfortunately, though, the light and the darkness interact here on planet Earth. Comparing the light and the darkness, the opposite of E/c2 would be z (absolute zero)/ c (darkness)...

Natural z/d - Nothing, empty space.
Mental z/d - Again nothing but empty space.
Spiritual z/d - z (laziness, coldness, hatred / d (fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

A correct spiritual E/c2 is an important ally to the Christian faith.

"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God… all this talk about God is sheer nonsense." - Joseph Stalin to a boyhood friend
The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - 1 Corinthians 1:25

Yes... Joseph Stalin was right... The power of God is non-sense...There is no intellectual value to virtue, love, faith, hope, charity, and joy. It is the presence of the Spiritual E/c2 that is Christianities greatest friend. And its powers brought back Christianity to the Russian people...

 

[cvanwey]

The question was for you, not about what the Bible says. You are saying that those things are immoral. You must have a reason for thinking that, else how are you judging the Bible's stance on the issue?

May I jump in here? I, myself, cannot account for what is truly absolutely 'good' or 'bad'. You state, in a later response, that God IS good.

I would assume the Bible IS God's Word? Well, assuming this to is true, by using faith/reason/other, let's continue...

The Bible tells it's readers:

"44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Maybe we should first ask ourselves...

1. Did God have a hand in this passage? How do you know?
2. If He did, do you agree with God's instructions here?

 

[coffee4u]

On the other hand, if the evidence for God was there, why would I look for another solution?

Because God does not want to be found based on evidence but on a spiritual connection, on faith.

You answered as I knew you would.

Have a nice day.

 

[cvanwey]

Because God does not want to be found based on evidence but on a spiritual connection, on faith.

You answered as I knew you would.

Have a nice day.

This response seems to bring up more head scratching, than to answer the question...

Aside from the Book saying so, why should I only apply faith in/to this doctrine, verses another? And please remember preemptively, you are claiming God does not seem to care as much for evidence.

 

[coffee4u]

This response seems to bring up more head scratching, than to answer the question...

Aside from the Book saying so, why should I only apply faith in/to this doctrine, verses another? And please remember preemptively, you are claiming God does not seem to care as much for evidence.

I am sure many here have tried to give you answers and you toss them aside.

People crave evidence because that is what the mind wants. And many find 'evidence' because the fallen spiritual side may provide it.

The spiritual can only be found by the spirit. This is why I said even a miracle done in front of you would not cause you to have faith. Faith comes from the spirit not the mind.

I can't make your spirit search the same way I can't see for you. The Bible is not just a book, it is God's word to us.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
It can do this if we allow it to. But God is a 'gentleman' for want of a better word. If you have closed your spirit off he leaves you to your choice.

 

[Norbert L]

I also said: "And if a third party asked you which of the two of you were correct, would you be able to show them that you were?"
And you answered: "As to the 3rd question, see above."

I can't see anything above. If it's a video, this might be because I live in China.

That could explain the comments you made previously. I thought the video might have been interesting to discuss. It's the first thing I thought of when I read your first two questions. It is about a dialogue within English culture that happens face to face and not some stuffy online forum. Seems Christian and Muslim scholars have been going at it for years without too many punches being thrown.

Did you read this text that was written under the video?

"The Quran affirms the inspiration, preservation, and authority of the Christian scriptures (including the Torah and the Gospel). Yet the Quran contradicts the Christian scriptures on fundamental doctrines (e.g., Jesus' death, resurrection, and deity). By affirming scriptures that contradict Islam, the Quran self-destructs. In this short video, David Wood (Acts 17 Apologetics) explains "The Islamic Dilemma."

He makes a point about informing his audience every time when someone else made a mistake in logic. I couldn't find a complete written script of his presentation.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. - 1 John 1:5

Unfortunately, though, the light and the darkness interact here on planet Earth. Comparing the light and the darkness, the opposite of E/c2 would be z (absolute zero)/ c (darkness)...

Natural z/d - Nothing, empty space.
Mental z/d - Again nothing but empty space.
Spiritual z/d - z (laziness, coldness, hatred / d (fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

A correct spiritual E/c2 is an important ally to the Christian faith.

"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God… all this talk about God is sheer nonsense." - Joseph Stalin to a boyhood friend
The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - 1 Corinthians 1:25

Yes... Joseph Stalin was right... The power of God is non-sense...There is no intellectual value to virtue, love, faith, hope, charity, and joy. It is the presence of the Spiritual E/c2 that is Christianities greatest friend. And its powers brought back Christianity to the Russian people...

You're conflating things that actually have nothing to do with each other. Please can I check - are you actually expecting me to take this seriously?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

May I jump in here? I, myself, cannot account for what is truly absolutely 'good' or 'bad'. You state, in a later response, that God IS good.

I would assume the Bible IS God's Word? Well, assuming this to is true, by using faith/reason/other, let's continue...

The Bible tells it's readers:

"44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Maybe we should first ask ourselves...

1. Did God have a hand in this passage? How do you know?
2. If He did, do you agree with God's instructions here?

Hello cvanwey! Nice to see you again

Here we are on another thread about Biblical slavery. They can't resist them, can they?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

That could explain the comments you made previously. I thought the video might have been interesting to discuss. It's the first thing I thought of when I read your first two questions. It is about a dialogue within English culture that happens face to face and not some stuffy online forum. Seems Christian and Muslim scholars have been going at it for years without too many punches being thrown.

Did you read this text that was written under the video?

"The Quran affirms the inspiration, preservation, and authority of the Christian scriptures (including the Torah and the Gospel). Yet the Quran contradicts the Christian scriptures on fundamental doctrines (e.g., Jesus' death, resurrection, and deity). By affirming scriptures that contradict Islam, the Quran self-destructs. In this short video, David Wood (Acts 17 Apologetics) explains "The Islamic Dilemma."

He makes a point about informing his audience every time when someone else made a mistake in logic. I couldn't find a complete written script of his presentation.

Thank you, that does sound quite interesting. But I seem to be hearing just one side here. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Islamic debaters aren't so impressed, and have a counterargument.
My first thought is that it's quite possible for the Quran to say that the Christian scriptures are authoritative and contain truth while also saying some parts of them are incorrect. Isn't that what Islamic scholars have always said, just as Christians do of Jewish scriptures?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I am sure many here have tried to give you answers and you toss them aside.

People crave evidence because that is what the mind wants. And many find 'evidence' because the fallen spiritual side may provide it.

The spiritual can only be found by the spirit. This is why I said even a miracle done in front of you would not cause you to have faith. Faith comes from the spirit not the mind.

I can't make your spirit search the same way I can't see for you. The Bible is not just a book, it is God's word to us.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
It can do this if we allow it to. But God is a 'gentleman' for want of a better word. If you have closed your spirit off he leaves you to your choice.

I think you should be reminded that this is a debating forum. Christians are actually enjoined to back up their claims with reasons, evidence and logic.

 

[coffee4u]

I think you should be reminded that this is a debating forum. Christians are actually enjoined to back up their claims with reasons, evidence and logic.

You know very well that God cannot be proved or defined by human reason, evidence and logic. If he could be shown so very easily everyone would believe without faith. God's very nature being spirit defies it. Just because you can't grasp or see the spirit like a hand does not mean it's not real. The same can be said of God, you can't disprove or prove he exists except with what you can experience for yourself, but we can't force you to go and experience, now can we. The evidence is personal, it is felt with the spirit because God is spirit. So we have come back around full circle.
If you truly were open to experiencing God and really wanted to know and connect with him you could through scripture and prayer; but you don't so you won't.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If you truly were open to experiencing God and really wanted to know and connect with him you could through scripture and prayer; but you don't so you won't.

What about people like me that was a believer for a long time. When I then tried to find good reasons for my belief I studied the scriptures and asked God in prayer for a couple of years and I never got to know God? God never answered or reveled himself to me during this process. Why? I was sincerely seeking and wanted God to exist.

 

[cvanwey]

I am sure many here have tried to give you answers and you toss them aside.

I only toss answers aside which either do not look to answer my direct question(s), or maybe seem to defy reason and logic.

People crave evidence because that is what the mind wants.

Is your epistemology consistent? Meaning, do you willfully apply credulity to all claims equally, or do you pick and choose? And if you pick and choose which assertions you decide to apply faith, how exactly do you do so?

The spiritual can only be found by the spirit.

Wait a minute... What?

This is why I said even a miracle done in front of you would not cause you to have faith. Faith comes from the spirit not the mind.

If a miracle was done in front of me, I would assume God's reasoning, at least in part for doing so, was to provide evidence. At which point, maybe that would be enough for me to believe He exists. Then, and only then, would I truly have the available choice of deciding whether or not to follow Him. You know, like Satan and all the angels apparently did.

I can't make your spirit search the same way I can't see for you. The Bible is not just a book, it is God's word to us.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
It can do this if we allow it to. But God is a 'gentleman' for want of a better word. If you have closed your spirit off he leaves you to your choice.

Wait a minute...? I have a 'spirit'?

 

[cvanwey]

If you truly were open to experiencing God and really wanted to know and connect with him you could through scripture and prayer; but you don't so you won't.

I tried this for a long time, and I apparently felt nothing? Does this mean...

1) ... He has decided to avoid me?
2) ... am I too clouded by sin to actually hear Him?
3) ... there exists no such God, and god is imaginary?

Thus far, 3) sounds the most reasonable. Why? Well, for starters, I have many friends and colleagues whom claim to speak to god(s), of a differing flavor. They cannot all be right - (unless more than one god exists), but they could all certainly be wrong.

 

[Norbert L]

Thank you, that does sound quite interesting. But I seem to be hearing just one side here. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Islamic debaters aren't so impressed, and have a counterargument.
My first thought is that it's quite possible for the Quran to say that the Christian scriptures are authoritative and contain truth while also saying some parts of them are incorrect. Isn't that what Islamic scholars have always said, just as Christians do of Jewish scriptures?

There certainly were many oppositional replies and it did create a significant reaction from the Muslim community within western democracies. Now they have to engage with rules of logic. Depending on the specific topic, Islam and Christianity fully agree on some things and disagree on others.

I suspect this issue arose because of three factors. 1) Immigration of Muslims to western democracies and the availability of translated Islamic holy books to the greater English speaking public in just the past 20 years. 2) As a result western academia began to show more involvement with the claims that religion was making. 3) The Islamic claim that the Quran is perfectly preserved and can not been tampered with. In my view that is the number one issue that Atheist, Christian and Jewish apologists began to take an adversarial position on. It also has expanded to other areas of study, maybe of even more significance. Here's the way I see it:

When disciplines within universities began to use the same methods of analysis which was applied to Christian books, they found numerous claims circulating in the broader general public today contradict the claims being made by what was said by their own Islamic written record.

Basically the historical written records from their past has holes in their narrative as Dr. Sheikh Yaser Qadhi pointed out. He is a Muslim immigrant who is also one of the highly visible Ivy League educated professors of Islamic studies. But it hasn't stopped with just philosophical and religious related departments within universities.

Harder sciences from archeology and history have become involved to the point of questioning Muhammad's existence. Similar to the questioning of Jesus' existence in academia but unlike Christianity and Judaism (did Moses exist is also a question) which have hundreds of years of experience in these fields of research. However Islam wasn't asking or being allowed to ask this question in their countries of origin. Their laws tend to have extremely strict legal penalties if you're on the wrong side of the religious issue being discussed. Such things like capital punishment when found guilty of apostasy tend to silence the tongue.

I believe what we have in common is having a large respect for rules of logic, numerous Muslims too appreciate its' use. Places like universities tend to attract the best minds and students that likewise hold these rules as common ground to have discussions with.

Unfortunately I'm not as skilled at communicating as they are, so unless I find a written script of the video I won't have much else to add.

 

[coffee4u]

What about people like me that was a believer for a long time. When I then tried to find good reasons for my belief I studied the scriptures and asked God in prayer for a couple of years and I never got to know God? God never answered or reveled himself to me during this process. Why? I was sincerely seeking and wanted God to exist.

All I have to go on is text, what you say here, but I don't know you. Since that is all I have to go on I may draw wrong conclusions, but all I can think is you were searching with your mind not your spirit. You have declared yourself an atheist so you are not a seeker, it is a hard position -and again we only have the text that you provide to go on.

"I then tried to find good reasons for my belief"
Do you understand that the spirit is not your mind?
It is the mind that wants reasons.

And when you say you were a believer, again I don't know what you mean by it.
Was it a head knowledge belief? That never lasts. When all you have is head knowledge belief the mind is always looking for the next thing to confirm it. This is why the Israelite's following Mosses were constantly up and down. God would do a miracle and they would believe but some time later they would doubt until God did another miracle. When Moses went up the mountain they couldn't even hold onto their belief long enough for him to come back down and instead made themselves a golden calf idol.
When the Israelite's marched around Jericho they didn't do that because they thought it was a well reasoned plan. They did it because the leaders trusted God and they carried out what he told them to do even though it must have looked stupid. Nothing about what they did there looked sane or reasonable. Faith is putting all our trust in God even when it doesn't appear to be reasonable.

"I was sincerely seeking and wanted God to exist."
And I am very sorry that you did not find God.

God says you must believe that he is first.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Perhaps something was blocking your trust, again I don't know I can only guess.

 

[coffee4u]

I only toss answers aside which either do not look to answer my direct question(s), or maybe seem to defy reason and logic.

So long as your upmost goal is 'reason and logic' you will never find God.

Is your epistemology consistent? Meaning, do you willfully apply credulity to all claims equally, or do you pick and choose? And if you pick and choose which assertions you decide to apply faith, how exactly do you do so?

I think you will find my epistemology very consistent. Although I am unsure of what claims you are referring to here.
I get the feeling anytime I talk to you that you are playing a game so I guess I reply in kind.

coffee4u said: ↑
The spiritual can only be found by the spirit.

Wait a minute... What?

I have said this to you on a few occasions now.
You can only find God who is spirit with your spirit. The same goes for the mind and the body.
Spirit to spirit.
Mind to mind
Body to body.
Not to say when you hug someone that your mind is not also involved, it is of course, but you don't just hug them with your mind and expect them to know you have hugged them, do you? To connect to someone by a hug you have to do so physically and to connect to God you must do so spiritually.

If a miracle was done in front of me, I would assume God's reasoning, at least in part for doing so, was to provide evidence. At which point, maybe that would be enough for me to believe He exists. Then, and only then, would I truly have the available choice of deciding whether or not to follow Him. You know, like Satan and all the angels apparently did.

Then you would have head knowledge just like the Israelite's had. What will that get you?
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Do you know how long their faith lasted? Hardly at all. Someone is sure to have counted up how many miracles God did for them and how many times they had complete disbelief. I can easily count 16 without even checking, but I am sure there were more. This was because their 'faith' was not faith it was head knowledge reasoning and acceptance.

Wait a minute...? I have a 'spirit'?
Yes you do, whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[coffee4u]

I tried this for a long time, and I apparently felt nothing? Does this mean...

1) ... He has decided to avoid me?
2) ... am I too clouded by sin to actually hear Him?
3) ... there exists no such God, and god is imaginary?

Thus far, 3) sounds the most reasonable. Why? Well, for starters, I have many friends and colleagues whom claim to speak to god(s), of a differing flavor. They cannot all be right - (unless more than one god exists), but they could all certainly be wrong.

Tried what for a long time? To search for God with your mind?

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Your friends and colleagues spirit is stirred, it is awake and searching. Like I said in an earlier post this is one proof (if the word 'proof' must be used) that the spiritual exists.
If the spiritual didn't exist you would not have all of these religions and experiences.
As I said in my first post, you can liken the spirit to another sense, but it is poorly working. So their spirit is indeed searching and it is finding and connecting to the spiritual side, but it isn't just God on that side so are angels and fallen angels. Unfortunately many people allow their spirit to reach out and connect to fallen angels. There is but one God, but many gods. Those gods are fallen angels. So yes, your friends and colleges are right, they have connected to various gods but not to God.

 

[Rachel20]

Hey I know this isn't the place to ask this, but I'm concerned. Has anyone heard from @cloudyday2 ?

 

[coffee4u]

Hey I know this isn't the place to ask this, but I'm concerned. Has anyone heard from @cloudyday2 ?

If you check their profile they said "I probably won't be as active at CF now that the world religions area has been closed." So I guess this is why.