Futurist Only Your end times scenario

Job8 · Jan 11, 2016

keras said:
The detail missing is what happens to allow the AC to gain power.

The removal of the Restrainer -- the Holy Spirit -- allows the AC to gain power and Satan to take full control (2 Thess 2:1-12)

Plus, of course, the 'rapture' described by Paul in 1 Thess 4:15-17 happens at the Return.

It is impossible that salvation (the Rapture) and judgment (the Second Coming) can be simultaneous. It's like asking someone to laugh and cry (not tears of joy but weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth) at the same time. For those who believe in such impossibilities we have Jude 14,15 and Rev 1:7: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him...Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

keras · Jan 11, 2016

Job8 said:
The removal of the Restrainer -- the Holy Spirit -- allows the AC to gain power and Satan to take full control (2 Thess 2:1-12)

You still miss what will happen to commence all the last days events. In order for the nations to relinquish their sovereignty, there must be some kind of dramatic disaster. The Bible prophets tell us in great detail what that worldwide disaster will be and what will trigger it. Psalms 11:4-6, Luke 21:34-35, 1 Thess. 5:3, Revelation 6:12-17.

Job8 said:
It is impossible that salvation (the Rapture) and judgment (the Second Coming) can be simultaneous.

This I fully agree with. Except for the 'rapture', the gathering of Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is not to heaven, but to Jerusalem; where Jesus will be.
The Judgement/punishment of the nations is the next prophesied event we can expect. Jesus quoted and fulfilled Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry. Verse 2b...the Day of vengeance of our God.... comes next.
Note that at the Return Jesus comes with garments splashed with blood. He got that at His earlier Judgement of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12, Isaiah 63:1-6, Psalms 110:6

iamlamad · Jan 11, 2016

dysert said:
Rapture

Antichrist revealed/Start of Tribulation

Seal judgments & start of 2 Witnesses (for 3 1/2 years) & Trumpet judgments 1-4

Antichrist turns against Israel and pursues her, but she's protected for 3 1/2 years; 2 Witnesses killed

Trumpet judgments 5-7 & Bowl judgments 1-7

Second Coming & Battle of Armageddon

satan cast to pit & Antichrist, False Prophet cast to LOF & unsaved killed

Millennium

Battle of Gog and Magog; unsaved killed

Great White Throne judgment & satan, unsaved to LOF

New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem

Details available upon request ;-)

I disagree, since NONE of the seals will be a part of the week. Only the 7th is the marker for the start of the week.
Seal 1 is to represent the church sent out with the Gospel.
Seals 2-4 ride together and are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. As we can see he failed. However, there are still many places in the world where someone teaching the gospel will be put to death.

Seal five is the last of the seals broken as soon as Jesus ascended. It is for the martyrs of the church age. they most wait for the END of the church age for judgment to begin. The church has been between the 5th and 6th seal since the early days of the gospel.

The Two witnesses show up just before the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet. They testify for 1260 days and are killed just before the 7th vial, lay dead for that time and rise up with all the Old TEstament saints AT the 7th vial.

The trumpet judgments, 1-6 come in the first half of the week. The vials in the last half - but late in the last half.

Douggg · Jan 12, 2016

iamlamad said:
Wow! You said it - you just don't believe it. Indeed the beast does stand by, but NOT by His will. It is simply that he CANNOT Kill them. He really would want to but cannot because they are not finished.

the beast finally gets around to making war on them and kills them.

NO! Of course he will have probably tried to kill them numerous times: but cannot.

You need to read again what it says in Revelation 13.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

If the two witnesses were around for that 42 months, then the world would not be saying "who is able to make war with him?"

The reason the world will be saying that in Revelation 13:4 is because the beast had just killed the two witnesses leaving 42 months in the 7 years, unhampered.

And you never did respond to how the world is going to witness the two witnesses's bodies lying in the streets of Jerusalem near the end of the great tribulation. Things like electric power, the internet, TV are not going to be functioning. And exchanging presents at that time, when the world will be starving and ill, with the pale horse rider come up on the earth.... is just not rationale.

After the two witnesses are killed. The ten kings, the ten leaders of the EU, go on a spree to eliminate all Christian sources still present on the earth that they will see as impediment to the beasts claim of God-hood agenda. Which they burn the Vatican to the ground.

Psalm3704 · Jan 12, 2016

Douggg said:
And you never did respond to how the world is going to witness the two witnesses's bodies lying in the streets of Jerusalem near the end of the great tribulation. Things like electric power, the internet, TV are not going to be functioning. And exchanging presents at that time, when the world will be starving and ill, with the pale horse rider come up on the earth.... is just not rationale.

No offense to Lamad but there's no temple either in the 2nd half of the tribulation. It's destroyed at the AoD (Matthew 24:15-22).

The bible tells us the 2 witnesses will testify during those 42 months when the temple is up and gentiles will also be roaming about the temple, Revelation 11:1-3.

Revelation 11:1-3 GNT
1 I was then given a stick that looked like a measuring-rod, and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count those who are worshiping in the temple. 2 But do not measure the outer courts, because they have been given to the heathen, who will trample on the Holy City for forty-two months. 3 I will send my two witnesses dressed in sackcloth, and they will proclaim God's message during those 1,260 days.”

In chapter 11:1-14, John in parenthesis went back to the beginning to cover the entire first half of the tribulation of what will happen to the 2 witnesses, from when they arrive at the temple up until the time they died and are resurrected in the middle of the tribulation when the man of sin arrives (Revelation 11:7) and becomes the beast.

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Douggg · Jan 12, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
No offense to Lamad but there's no temple either in the 2nd half of the tribulation. It's destroyed at the AoD (Matthew 24:15-22).

The bible tells us the 2 witnesses will testify during those 42 months when the temple is up and gentiles will also be roaming about the temple, Revelation 11:1-3.

Revelation 11:1-3 GNT
1 I was then given a stick that looked like a measuring-rod, and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count those who are worshiping in the temple. 2 But do not measure the outer courts, because they have been given to the heathen, who will trample on the Holy City for forty-two months. 3 I will send my two witnesses dressed in sackcloth, and they will proclaim God's message during those 1,260 days.”

In chapter 11:1-14, John in parenthesis went back to the beginning to cover the entire first half of the tribulation of what will happen to the 2 witnesses, from when they arrive at the temple up until the time they died and are resurrected in the middle of the tribulation when the man of sin arrives (Revelation 11:7) and becomes the beast.

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Matthew 24:15-22 is not indicating there won't be a temple. It is indicating when the thing called the abomination of desolation is setup there - it means there will be no ritual ceremonies carried out by the priests and that the Jews will forbid from worshiping there; that is, making it desolate.

Daniel 8 indicates that a temple will be there, but in an unclean condition, until Jesus returns. The timeframe given for when the daily sacrifices resume, then are stopped by the revealed man of sin (the little horn person), then the transgression, followed by the abomination, of desolation - until the temple is cleansed, in total is 2300 days.

So we can know on a 2520 day timeline, that the daily sacrifices will resume on day 220.

Daniel 8:
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Since the sanctuary will be cleansed of the Abomination of Desolation, a temple has to be in existence when Jesus returns. And is critical to understand that the cleansing of the temple will be that the image, the statue, that comes to life, that facade will be melted away by the brightness of Jesus's coming. And there will be Satan on the temple mount, exposed to the whole world.

When the lone angel descends and binds Satan in chains, and he is cast into the bottomless pit - then the temple will be cleansed.

iamlamad · Jan 12, 2016

Douggg said:
You need to read again what it says in Revelation 13.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

If the two witnesses were around for that 42 months, then the world would not be saying "who is able to make war with him?"

The reason the world will be saying that in Revelation 13:4 is because the beast had just killed the two witnesses leaving 42 months in the 7 years, unhampered.

And you never did respond to how the world is going to witness the two witnesses's bodies lying in the streets of Jerusalem near the end of the great tribulation. Things like electric power, the internet, TV are not going to be functioning. And exchanging presents at that time, when the world will be starving and ill, with the pale horse rider come up on the earth.... is just not rationale.

After the two witnesses are killed. The ten kings, the ten leaders of the EU, go on a spree to eliminate all Christian sources still present on the earth that they will see as impediment to the beasts claim of God-hood agenda. Which they burn the Vatican to the ground.

There is a difference in making war and killing someone with supernatural protection. Satan will give him authority over all the earth, but that does NOT include the two witnesses.

The reason the world will be saying that in Revelation 13:4 is because the beast had just killed the two witnesses leaving 42 months in the 7 years, unhampered.

This is only a theory and human reasoning that cannot be proven by scripture. You are trying to rearrange Revelation. You will be proven wrong.

Things like electric power, the internet, TV are not going to be functioning.

This too is theory.

with the pale horse rider come up on the earth.... is just not rationale.

Wow! You said that right! The seal for the pale horse and rider was broken about 32 AD. That horse and rider, along with the Black and Red, are to stop the advance of the Gospel. They ride together. Are they REAL riders on REAL horses? God does not tell us.

Remember that "Babylon" and the cities of the world are not destroyed until the 7th vial earthquake.

AGain you miss it: JERUSALEM will be burned. Jerusalem is the great Wh**e Babylon.

iamlamad · Jan 12, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
No offense to Lamad but there's no temple either in the 2nd half of the tribulation. It's destroyed at the AoD (Matthew 24:15-22).

The bible tells us the 2 witnesses will testify during those 42 months when the temple is up and gentiles will also be roaming about the temple, Revelation 11:1-3.

Revelation 11:1-3 GNT
1 I was then given a stick that looked like a measuring-rod, and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count those who are worshiping in the temple. 2 But do not measure the outer courts, because they have been given to the heathen, who will trample on the Holy City for forty-two months. 3 I will send my two witnesses dressed in sackcloth, and they will proclaim God's message during those 1,260 days.”

In chapter 11:1-14, John in parenthesis went back to the beginning to cover the entire first half of the tribulation of what will happen to the 2 witnesses, from when they arrive at the temple up until the time they died and are resurrected in the middle of the tribulation when the man of sin arrives (Revelation 11:7) and becomes the beast.
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Sorry my friend, but you miss it BIG TIME here. There is NO SUCH THING as John going back to the beginning. That is MYTH. It is also MYTH that the temple is destroyed at the abomination. Please show us the scripture? I think the image the Beast makes will SET in the temple for much of the days of GT.

What is a parentheses is the time of the two witnesses down the last half of the week. John is very close to the midpoint at the first of chapter 11, and is a second or two after the abomination in 12:6.

iamlamad · Jan 12, 2016

Douggg said:
Matthew 24:15-22 is not indicating there won't be a temple. It is indicating when the thing called the abomination of desolation is setup there - it means there will be no ritual ceremonies carried out by the priests and that the Jews will forbid from worshiping there; that is, making it desolate.

Daniel 8 indicates that a temple will be there, but in an unclean condition, until Jesus returns. The timeframe given for when the daily sacrifices resume, then are stopped by the revealed man of sin (the little horn person), then the transgression, followed by the abomination, of desolation - until the temple is cleansed, in total is 2300 days.

So we can know on a 2520 day timeline, that the daily sacrifices will resume on day 220.

Daniel 8:
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Since the sanctuary will be cleansed of the Abomination of Desolation, a temple has to be in existence when Jesus returns. And is critical to understand that the cleansing of the temple will be that the image, the statue, that comes to life, that facade will be melted away by the brightness of Jesus's coming. And there will be Satan on the temple mount, exposed to the whole world.

When the lone angel descends and binds Satan in chains, and he is cast into the bottomless pit - then the temple will be cleansed.

Exactly: CLEANSED. It will still be there.

keras · Jan 13, 2016

Matthew 24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down. Quote Psalm3704

The 'elect' are gathered from the 'four winds'; that is the earth and from heaven.
We know who these two groups are from Revelation; the ones from heaven are the souls of the martyrs that are kept under the Altar, Revelation 6:9
The other group are people on earth who have refused the mark of the beast, and all those who were taken to the place of safety during the GT. Revelation 12:14
So your premise that any live person goes to live in heaven is wrong.

.[/QUOTE]

Psalm3704 · Jan 13, 2016

keras said:
The 'elect' are gathered from the 'four winds'; that is the earth and from heaven.
We know who these two groups are from Revelation; the ones from heaven are the souls of the martyrs that are kept under the Altar, Revelation 6:9
The other group are people on earth who have refused the mark of the beast, and all those who were taken to the place of safety during the GT. Revelation 12:14

No, the four winds implies the cardinal directions: North, South, East, and West.

Biblical
In the Hebrew Bible, there is frequent reference to four cardinal directions.[5] The names of the directions seem to be associated with physical landmarks for the ancient Israelites living in the region of Judea, e.g. East is referred to as kedem, which derives from "edom" ("red"), and may be a reference to the color of the rising dawn, or the red sandstone cliffs of the Land of Edom to the east; North is referred to as saphon, from Mount Zaphon on the northern edge of Syria, South is often negev, from the Negev desert to the south, and West is yam ("sea", meaning the Mediterranean Sea).[6][7] Orientation seems to be to the East, in the direction of the rising sun, with the result that the terms kedem, saphon and negev became generalized with "facing", "left" and "right" side of anything.

The association of cardinal directions with winds is implied at several places in the Old Testament.[8] "Four winds" are referred to in the Bible in several places.[9] Kedem (East) is used frequently as the name of a scorching wind that blows from the east.[10] There are several passages referring to the scattering of people "to all the winds".[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_compass_winds

keras said:
So your premise that any live person goes to live in heaven is wrong.

Relax Keras, the way you constantly keep pushing this abomination, I don't think you're going.

Hebrews 12:22-24 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Keras, the people in Hebrews 12:22-24 went straight to heaven, it certainly was not a U-turn back down to earth!

Hebrews 12:25-29 NKJV
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

And when did this happen Keras? Well Hebrews 12:26 reveals they were raptured into heaven before God's judgement upon the earth. Guess what Keras? It's a PreTrib rapture.....to heaven.

.

.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Psalm3704 · Jan 13, 2016

Douggg said:
Matthew 24:15-22 is not indicating there won't be a temple. It is indicating when the thing called the abomination of desolation is setup there - it means there will be no ritual ceremonies carried out by the priests and that the Jews will forbid from worshiping there; that is, making it desolate.

I didn't elaborate on this because I thought you knew all this already.

Matthew 24:15-22 NKJV
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The holy place in Matthew 24:15 is the temple. From verse 16-20 Christ tells them to flee for their lives. Because there will be such great tribulation there not the likes since the dawn of man nor ever will be again. And no one will survive unless this period is shorten: Matthew 24:21-22.

All scriptures below are about Jerusalem and Israel during the tribulation. Everything in the Jerusalem and the temple will be destroyed during the tribulation. In Micah 1:19, Isaiah 64:10, all the cities of Israel destroyed.

Isaiah 64:9-12 NKJV
9 Do not be furious, O Lord,
Nor remember iniquity forever;
Indeed, please look—we all are Your people!
10 Your holy cities are a wilderness,
Zion is a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful temple,
Where our fathers praised You,
Is burned up with fire;
And all our pleasant things are laid waste.
12 Will You restrain Yourself because of these things, O Lord?
Will You hold Your peace, and afflict us very severely?

Jeremiah 26:18 NKJV
“Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Zion shall be plowed like a field,
Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins,
And the mountain of the temple
Like the bare hills of the forest.”’

Ezekiel 22:17-22 GNT
17 The Lord said to me, 18 “Mortal man, the Israelites are of no use to me. They are like waste metal—copper, tin, iron, and lead—left over after silver has been refined in a furnace.19 So now I, the Sovereign Lord, am telling them that they are just as useless as that. I will bring them all together in Jerusalem 20 in the same way that the ore of silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin is put in a refining furnace. My anger and rage will melt them the way fire melts ore. 21 Yes, I will gather them in Jerusalem, build a fire under them, and melt them with my anger. 22 They will be melted in Jerusalem the way silver is melted in a furnace, and then they will know that they are feeling the anger of the Lord.”

Isaiah 29:1-8 GNT
29 God's altar, Jerusalem itself, is doomed! The city where David camped is doomed! Let another year or two come and go, with its feasts and festivals, 2 and then God will bring disaster on the city that is called “God's altar.” There will be weeping and wailing, and the whole city will be like an altar covered with blood. 3 God will attack the city, surround it, and besiege it. 4 Jerusalem will be like a ghost struggling to speak from under the ground, a muffled voice coming from the dust.

5 Jerusalem, all the foreigners who attack you will be blown away like dust, and their terrifying armies will fly away like straw. Suddenly and unexpectedly 6 the Lord Almighty will rescue you with violent thunderstorms and earthquakes. He will send windstorms and raging fire; 7 then all the armies of the nations attacking the city of God's altar, all their weapons and equipment—everything—will vanish like a dream, like something imagined in the night. 8 All the nations that assemble to attack Jerusalem will be like a starving person who dreams he is eating and wakes up hungry, or like someone dying of thirst who dreams he is drinking and wakes with a dry throat.

(Isaiah 29:1-8 is in figurative language. If you want it interpreted, please say so. But it's a nuclear bomb.)

Micah 1:1-9 GNT
1 During the time that Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah, the Lord gave this message to Micah, who was from the town of Moresheth. The Lord revealed to Micah all these things about Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 Hear this, all you nations;
listen to this, all who live on earth!
The Sovereign Lord will testify against you.
Listen! He speaks from his heavenly temple.
3 The Lord is coming from his holy place;
he will come down and walk on the tops of the mountains.
4 Then the mountains will melt under him
like wax in a fire;
they will pour down into the valleys
like water pouring down a hill.

5 All this will happen because the people of Israel have sinned and rebelled against God. Who is to blame for Israel's rebellion? Samaria, the capital city itself Who is guilty of idolatry in Judah? Jerusalem itself 6 So the Lord says, “I will make Samaria a pile of ruins in the open country, a place for planting grapevines. I will pour the rubble of the city down into the valley, and will lay bare the city's foundations. 7 All its precious idols will be smashed to pieces, everything given to its temple prostitutes will be destroyed by fire, and all its images will become a desolate heap. Samaria acquired these things for its fertility rites, and now her enemies will carry them off for temple prostitutes elsewhere.”

8 Then Micah said, “Because of this I will mourn and lament. To show my sorrow, I will walk around barefoot and naked. I will howl like a jackal and wail like an ostrich. 9 Samaria's wounds cannot be healed, and Judah is about to suffer in the same way; destruction has reached the gates of Jerusalem itself, where my people live.”

**********************************************

In 3 different locations and time: Matthew 24:1-2, Mark 13:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6, Jesus told them not one stone will be left on top of another. He was referring to everything being destroy. Not just the sanctuary nor the great buildings outside the sanctuary, nor the structures of the temple: temple walls. Everything will be destroy in one blow: Matthew 24:15-22.

*********************************

Also days of Lot: Luke 17:26-37 and Jacob's Trouble: Jer 30:4-8 reveals Jerusalem being nuked at the AoD.

If need explanations, please say so.

Douggg said:
Daniel 8 indicates that a temple will be there, but in an unclean condition, until Jesus returns. The timeframe given for when the daily sacrifices resume, then are stopped by the revealed man of sin (the little horn person), then the transgression, followed by the abomination, of desolation - until the temple is cleansed, in total is 2300 days.

So we can know on a 2520 day timeline, that the daily sacrifices will resume on day 220.

Doug, it's 2300 forward from the time the daily sacrifices is stopped (1260). It's speaking about the length at which there will be no sacrifices can be perform. This leads up to about 965 days or 2.68 years after the tribulation when the cleansing is completed.

2300 - 1335 = 965

Douggg said:
Daniel 8:
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Since the sanctuary will be cleansed of the Abomination of Desolation, a temple has to be in existence when Jesus returns. And is critical to understand that the cleansing of the temple will be that the image, the statue, that comes to life, that facade will be melted away by the brightness of Jesus's coming. And there will be Satan on the temple mount, exposed to the whole world.

When the lone angel descends and binds Satan in chains, and he is cast into the bottomless pit - then the temple will be cleansed.

Daniel 8:
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

See in verse 13, it said the temple is desolate. It's destroyed. The transgression is what caused it: a nuclear bomb was dropped on Jerusalem: Zechariah 14:12, Isaiah 29:1-8.

(This next part I'm not 100% certain because I haven't researched this area yet in scriptures) But based on what I know will happen in Jerusalem from scriptures, and how all the fires will be put out in Jerusalem (ask if you want scriptures revealing it), it's telling you the area where the temple once stood will take 2300 days, about 965 days after the tribulation when the residuals from the radiation will be cleansed before it become inhabitable again. The temple cannot be left standing based on so many other scriptures. It's hard to imagine the entire city of Jerusalem completely destroyed but only the sanctuary is left standing, Isaiah 64:11.

Other scriptures to support this. The Ezekiel temple will be built on Mount Zion. Currently, the temple mount sits on Mount Moriah, not the same location. If the next temple survives the entire tribulation, there will be two temples in Jerusalem. The 3rd temple has to be destroy so a 4th temple (Ezekiel's Temple) can be made.

Ezekiel's Temple will not be built on the same location where the temple mount is. The next temple (Zerubbabel's Temple) will be completed on the temple mount during the first year of the tribulation. (it's also in the bible, I'm too lazy to dig this up right now).

Locations below. Mount Zion where Ezekiel's Temple will be built is at the center of map. Temple Mount located at northeast corner of map.

http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/MountZion.html

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Psalm3704 · Jan 13, 2016

iamlamad said:
Sorry my friend, but you miss it BIG TIME here. There is NO SUCH THING as John going back to the beginning.

Yeah I already knew you would disagree so we'll agree to disagree on this prophecy.

iamlamad said:
Please show us the scripture?

Post #72.

.

Douggg · Jan 13, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
I didn't elaborate on this because I thought you knew all this already.

Matthew 24:15-22 NKJV
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
The holy place in Matthew 24:15 is the temple. From verse 16-20 Christ tells them to flee for their lives. Because there will be such great tribulation there not the likes since the dawn of man nor ever will be again. And no one will survive unless this period is shorten: Matthew 24:21-22.

But those verses don't say that the temple will be destroyed.

All scriptures below are about Jerusalem and Israel during the tribulation. Everything in the Jerusalem and the temple will be destroyed during the tribulation. In Micah 1:19, Isaiah 64:10, all the cities of Israel destroyed.

Those prophecies have already been fulfilled by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans.

Jerusalem has to be in existence because Jesus returns to the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half making a way from them captive there a way for escape.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Daniel 8:
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

See in verse 13, it said the temple is desolate. It's destroyed. The transgression is what caused it: a nuclear bomb was dropped on Jerusalem: Zechariah 14:12, Isaiah 29:1-8.

Desolate means empty of the priests and the ordinances performed and the Jews worshiping there. If the sanctuary is trodden under foot, then it has to be in existence.

The 70th week temple will not be the millennium temple. The size of the 70th week temple, the sanctuary only has to be a minimum of 15 ft x 30 ft, the same as the tent tabernacle, in order to carry out the temple ceremonies. It will be small because of the short time given to construct it during the 70th week. It will be a temple, but considered an interim temple until the greater temple is undertaken.

No nuclear bomb is going to be dropped on Jerusalem. If that were to happen, there would be an empty hole in the ground and everyone in the city destroyed.

tranquil · Jan 13, 2016

Douggg said:
But the EU will eventually control the whole earth as the dominant kingdom. It is a matter of progression on the end times timeline.

The beast in Revelation 13:1-2, the kingdom aspect, is that with 42 months left in the 7 years, the EU will have gained controlled of all the middle east oil producing states, which is why the body of the beast is made up of parts of the animals of the three historic empires in Daniel 7.

But I don't read anything in bible prophecy that earthquakes, tsunamies, CME's, will happen as a catalyst for global geo-political change . The big event in the bible, extensively, not just a verse or two, that will change the global geo-politics is Gog/Magog. That will change everything. Islam destroyed. Russia incapacitated. The EU moving into the middle east to take over the oil rich territories, and act as peace occupier. The little horn leader of the EU, embraced by the Jews as their messiah, anointed King of Israel. Peace and safety messianic age (false) begins. The 7 years following Gog/Magog. And the great falling away from Christianity begins.

What the Jews are expecting, from Judaism 101.com, the mashiach,
"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5)."

What the bible indicates: The little horn will become politcial leader over the ten leader government of the EU. When Gog/Magog becomes eminent, he stages his armies in Greece. Gog/Magog takes place/destroyed by God. The little horn arrives in the middle east with his armies.

What the Jews are expecting, from the Judaism 101.com site, the mashiach,
"He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

The little horn will have appeared to the Jews to have intended to fight Gog/Maog for them. He will be a Jew.

What the Jews are expecting, from the Judaism 101.com site. the mashiach,
"He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship"

Islam will be destroyed, Gog/Magog, allowing for the rebuilding of a temple.

What the Jews are expecting, from the Judaism 101:com site, the mashaich,

The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
Ezekiel 38:16

The Jews tie the messiah to Gog/Magog. The little horn will become the Antichrist, King of Israel, then revealed as the man of sin, then becomes the beast of Revelation. He has to become the leader of the EU first.

Gog is Abaddon, the man of sin/ lawlessness.

The tribulation appears to be :
-10 days tribulation (6th Seal + Trumpets 1-4),
-150 days of the 5th Trumpet (in which Abaddon is attempting to take over Jerusalem),
-385 days for the 6th Trumpet war (Rev 9:15) (aka the Gog war, at the end of the Gog war, Gog is killed by the angel Michael.) (Abaddon is the leader of the 7 headed, 10 horned, 7 crowned dragon of Rev 12:2) (during which Abaddon has taken over Jerusalem, at the end of which he dies and is resurrected, to become the leader of the 7 headed, 10 horned, 10 crowned Revelation 13 beast from the sea.)

-the woman goes into the wilderness at the end of this Gog war. for 1260 days, at the end of which she has to choose the false prophet or Christ - hence the 5 wise, 5 foolish virgins
-the resurrected 7th head/ the 8th beast (the Rev 13 beast from the sea) makes the 7 year covenant (but is not the same as the "7 year tribulation") (start of the Ezekiel 39:9 burning the weapons for 7 years.)
-at the same time, the "most holy" is anointed (Dan 9:24). Who is that? the 2 witnesses (Zech 4:14) are the anointed ones... Joshua and Zerubabbel.

After 1260 days, the beast from the 'bottomless pit' wages war on them (Abaddon, beast from the sea and the false prophet, beast from the earth.) This is when the false prophet makes an image of the beast and is enforced with 666.

After 3.5 days, the 2 witnesses are raised up.
The bowls of wrath are poured out.
Then 70 weeks finishes the transgression.
10 + 150 + 385 + 1260 +3.5 + 490= 2298.5 days (rounded to 2299 days) leaving the 2300th day when the sanctuary is cleansed (meaning the body of Christ, not a temple).

Again, all of that is just a straight reading of Dan 9

24 Seventy weeks are decreed
about your people and your holy city—
to bring the rebellion to an end,
to put a stop to sin,
to wipe away iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most holy place.

[the translation says : "most holy" not 'most holy place']

25 Know and understand this:
From the issuing of the decree
to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
until Messiah the Prince

'messiah is an anointed one' - the anointed one comes at the 7th week (49 days in) and is cut off at the 62nd week (the 483rd day. 483 days - 49= 385 days. This anointed one is Gog.

will be seven weeks and 62 weeks.
It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat,
but in difficult times.
26 After those 62 weeks
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be war;
desolations are decreed.
27 He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator.”

keras · Jan 13, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
No, the four winds implies the cardinal directions: North, South, East, and West.

Your reply doesn't address the fact Matthew 24:31 is talking about 2 places: from the four winds= earth and from one end of heaven to the other. = heaven. The souls of the martyrs are kept in heaven and those survivors who have kept their faith during the time of testing are on earth.

Psalm3704 said:
Relax Keras, the way you constantly keep pushing this abomination, I don't think you're going.

The way you and other rapture believers show your hatred of anyone who challenges that false and un-Biblical belief, is an indictment against yourself.

Psalm3704 said:
And when did this happen Keras? Well Hebrews 12:26 reveals they were raptured into heaven before God's judgement upon the earth. Guess what Keras? It's a PreTrib rapture.....to heaven.

Hebrews 12:26 reveals a rapture to heaven?????
Grasping at straws, and making a rapture out of prophesies about the forthcoming Judgement, shows the paucity and shallowness of the rapture theory.

iamlamad · Jan 13, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
I didn't elaborate on this because I thought you knew all this already.

Matthew 24:15-22 NKJV
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The holy place in Matthew 24:15 is the temple. From verse 16-20 Christ tells them to flee for their lives. Because there will be such great tribulation there not the likes since the dawn of man nor ever will be again. And no one will survive unless this period is shorten: Matthew 24:21-22.

All scriptures below are about Jerusalem and Israel during the tribulation. Everything in the Jerusalem and the temple will be destroyed during the tribulation. In Micah 1:19, Isaiah 64:10, all the cities of Israel destroyed.

Isaiah 64:9-12 NKJV
9 Do not be furious, O Lord,
Nor remember iniquity forever;
Indeed, please look—we all are Your people!
10 Your holy cities are a wilderness,
Zion is a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful temple,
Where our fathers praised You,
Is burned up with fire;
And all our pleasant things are laid waste.
12 Will You restrain Yourself because of these things, O Lord?
Will You hold Your peace, and afflict us very severely?

Jeremiah 26:18 NKJV
“Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Zion shall be plowed like a field,
Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins,
And the mountain of the temple
Like the bare hills of the forest.”’

Ezekiel 22:17-22 GNT
17 The Lord said to me, 18 “Mortal man, the Israelites are of no use to me. They are like waste metal—copper, tin, iron, and lead—left over after silver has been refined in a furnace.19 So now I, the Sovereign Lord, am telling them that they are just as useless as that. I will bring them all together in Jerusalem 20 in the same way that the ore of silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin is put in a refining furnace. My anger and rage will melt them the way fire melts ore. 21 Yes, I will gather them in Jerusalem, build a fire under them, and melt them with my anger. 22 They will be melted in Jerusalem the way silver is melted in a furnace, and then they will know that they are feeling the anger of the Lord.”.

Please understand, the bible exaggerates for effect: 1/3 will survive this.

Psalm3704 said:
Isaiah 29:1-8 GNT
29 God's altar, Jerusalem itself, is doomed! The city where David camped is doomed! Let another year or two come and go, with its feasts and festivals, 2 and then God will bring disaster on the city that is called “God's altar.” There will be weeping and wailing, and the whole city will be like an altar covered with blood. 3 God will attack the city, surround it, and besiege it. 4 Jerusalem will be like a ghost struggling to speak from under the ground, a muffled voice coming from the dust..

Is this speaking of AD 70 or the future of Jerusalem?

Psalm3704 said:

5 Jerusalem, all the foreigners who attack you will be blown away like dust, and their terrifying armies will fly away like straw. Suddenly and unexpectedly 6 the Lord Almighty will rescue you with violent thunderstorms and earthquakes. He will send windstorms and raging fire; 7 then all the armies of the nations attacking the city of God's altar, all their weapons and equipment—everything—will vanish like a dream, like something imagined in the night. 8 All the nations that assemble to attack Jerusalem will be like a starving person who dreams he is eating and wakes up hungry, or like someone dying of thirst who dreams he is drinking and wakes with a dry throat.

Click to expand...

Psalm3704 said:
(Isaiah 29:1-8 is in figurative language. If you want it interpreted, please say so. But it's a nuclear bomb.).

I think your imagination got away from you here. No nuke. Just the two edged sword of the words of our Lord Jesus. He did say He would send hundred pound hail stones. This is the battle of Aramageddon. No nuke: only GOD in his power.

Psalm3704 said:
Micah 1:1-9 GNT
1 During the time that Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah, the Lord gave this message to Micah, who was from the town of Moresheth. The Lord revealed to Micah all these things about Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 Hear this, all you nations;
listen to this, all who live on earth!
The Sovereign Lord will testify against you.
Listen! He speaks from his heavenly temple.
3 The Lord is coming from his holy place;
he will come down and walk on the tops of the mountains.
4 Then the mountains will melt under him
like wax in a fire;
they will pour down into the valleys
like water pouring down a hill.

5 All this will happen because the people of Israel have sinned and rebelled against God. Who is to blame for Israel's rebellion? Samaria, the capital city itself Who is guilty of idolatry in Judah? Jerusalem itself 6 So the Lord says, “I will make Samaria a pile of ruins in the open country, a place for planting grapevines. I will pour the rubble of the city down into the valley, and will lay bare the city's foundations. 7 All its precious idols will be smashed to pieces, everything given to its temple prostitutes will be destroyed by fire, and all its images will become a desolate heap. Samaria acquired these things for its fertility rites, and now her enemies will carry them off for temple prostitutes elsewhere.”

8 Then Micah said, “Because of this I will mourn and lament. To show my sorrow, I will walk around barefoot and naked. I will howl like a jackal and wail like an ostrich. 9 Samaria's wounds cannot be healed, and Judah is about to suffer in the same way; destruction has reached the gates of Jerusalem itself, where my people live.”

**********************************************

In 3 different locations and time: Matthew 24:1-2, Mark 13:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6, Jesus told them not one stone will be left on top of another. He was referring to everything being destroy. Not just the sanctuary nor the great buildings outside the sanctuary, nor the structures of the temple: temple walls. Everything will be destroy in one blow: Matthew 24:15-22.

*********************************.

Some here disagree with you, thinking Jesus was only talking about the TEMPLE proper. That certainly happened in 70 AD.

Psalm3704 said:
Also days of Lot: Luke 17:26-37 and Jacob's Trouble: Jer 30:4-8 reveals Jerusalem being nuked at the AoD.

If need explanations, please say so.

I don't think so: over-active imagination again.

Psalm3704 said:
Doug, it's 2300 forward from the time the daily sacrifices is stopped (1260). It's speaking about the length at which there will be no sacrifices can be perform. This leads up to about 965 days or 2.68 years after the tribulation when the cleansing is completed.

2300 - 1335 = 965

Come on, guys, this is talking about when Antiochus, not the future!

Dan 8
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. [Alexander]

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

This is about the end of Greece as it once was. When Antiochus took over it was only a fraction of what it was when Alexander died. It continued for many more years, but almost as a ghost of what it was. The 2300 days was to clease the temple after Antiochus placed the image of Zeus there.

Psalm3704 said:
Daniel 8:
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

HISTORY NOT FUTURE.

Psalm3704 said:
See in verse 13, it said the temple is desolate. It's destroyed. The transgression is what caused it: a nuclear bomb was dropped on Jerusalem: Zechariah 14:12, Isaiah 29:1-8.

Imagination gone wild here.

Psalm3704 said:
(This next part I'm not 100% certain because I haven't researched this area yet in scriptures) But based on what I know will happen in Jerusalem from scriptures, and how all the fires will be put out in Jerusalem (ask if you want scriptures revealing it), it's telling you the area where the temple once stood will take 2300 days, about 965 days after the tribulation when the residuals from the radiation will be cleansed before it become inhabitable again. The temple cannot be left standing based on so many other scriptures. It's hard to imagine the entire city of Jerusalem completely destroyed but only the sanctuary is left standing, Isaiah 64:11.

Wrong: HISTORY not future.

Psalm3704 said:
Other scriptures to support this. The Ezekiel temple will be built on Mount Zion. Currently, the temple mount sits on Mount Moriah, not the same location. If the next temple survives the entire tribulation, there will be two temples in Jerusalem. The 3rd temple has to be destroy so a 4th temple (Ezekiel's Temple) can be made.

Revelation tells us the city will be burned. Would that destroy a stone temple?

Psalm3704 said:
Ezekiel's Temple will not be built on the same location where the temple mount is. The next temple (Zerubbabel's Temple) will be completed on the temple mount during the first year of the tribulation. (it's also in the bible, I'm too lazy to dig this up right now).

Locations below. Mount Zion where Ezekiel's Temple will be built is at the center of map. Temple Mount located at northeast corner of map.

http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/MountZion.html

.

I think you need to research Daniel 8.

Psalm3704 · Jan 14, 2016

keras said:
The way you and other rapture believers show your hatred of anyone who challenges that false and un-Biblical belief, is an indictment against yourself.

You need to chill out or take a chill pill Keras. All I did was finally agreed with your notion that no one goes to heaven and said "Relax Keras, the way you constantly keep pushing this abomination, I don't think you're going" and you're already having a heart attack.

If you don't want us to talk about this, stop constantly telling everyone here that no one goes to heaven. You keep preaching this as if you life depended upon it. And no I don't hate you Keras, I just think you're lost, like somewhere out in the boonies. There's a difference.

keras said:
Hebrews 12:26 reveals a rapture to heaven?????
Grasping at straws, and making a rapture out of prophesies about the forthcoming Judgement, shows the paucity and shallowness of the rapture theory.

Typical of you, pulling verses out of context to emphasizing only you want others to see. Read everything below and not only verse 26. Yes it does reveal the church in heaven before God judges the world.

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

keras said:
Your reply doesn't address the fact Matthew 24:31 is talking about 2 places: from the four winds= earth and from one end of heaven to the other. = heaven. The souls of the martyrs are kept in heaven and those survivors who have kept their faith during the time of testing are on earth.

I've already exposed your error on this matter in post #71. Do you need to read it again? Here it is.

No, the four winds implies the cardinal directions: North, South, East, and West.

Biblical
In the Hebrew Bible, there is frequent reference to four cardinal directions.[5] The names of the directions seem to be associated with physical landmarks for the ancient Israelites living in the region of Judea, e.g. East is referred to as kedem, which derives from "edom" ("red"), and may be a reference to the color of the rising dawn, or the red sandstone cliffs of the Land of Edom to the east; North is referred to as saphon, from Mount Zaphon on the northern edge of Syria,South is often negev, from the Negev desert to the south, and West is yam ("sea", meaning the Mediterranean Sea).[6][7] Orientation seems to be to the East, in the direction of the rising sun, with the result that the terms kedem, saphon and negev became generalized with "facing", "left" and "right" side of anything.

The association of cardinal directions with winds is implied at several places in the Old Testament.[8] "Four winds" are referred to in the Bible in several places.[9] Kedem (East) is used frequently as the name of a scorching wind that blows from the east.[10] There are several passages referring to the scattering of people "to all the winds".[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_compass_winds

More information on the Four Winds:

Question: "What does the Bible mean when it refers to the four winds?"

Answer: Wind is frequently used in the Bible as a metaphor for some spiritual truth (e.g., Psalm 78:39 and Jeremiah 22:22). This holds true when the Bible refers to the “four winds.” The phrase “four winds” is used principally to describe the whole of the earth or heaven. The “four winds” encompass all directions or the “four corners” of the earth: north, south, east, and west (Jeremiah 49:36; Matthew 24:31).

http://www.gotquestions.org/four-winds.html

Here it is in the King James. Matthew was referring to EVERYWHERE in heaven in ALL directions: "from one end of heaven to the other."

Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

************************************

Keras, wanna know how the church got to heaven, PreTrib and why the elects are gathered from heaven after the tribulation? Of course you do!

1) The church is raptured before the tribulation: Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1, Hebrews 12:22-29.

2) At the Bema Seat, Christians will be rewarded. One of the reward will be a mansion: 2 Corinthians 5:1-2, John 14:2-3, Hebrews 11:15-16.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 NKJV
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,

Isaiah 26:19-21 NKJV
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Isaiah 27:1 NKJV
In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

*Isaiah 26:19, the church is raptured.
*Isaiah 26:20, the church waits in our personal mansion in heaven until AFTER the tribulation: Until the indignation is past. The church never leaves heaven until AFTER the tribulation!

*Isaiah 26:21, Christ descends to earth and judges the world.

*Isaiah 27:1, Christ kills the beast.

3) Christ comes to earth with only His angels: Matthew 25:31, to defeat the a/c, judge the world: Matthew 13:40-42, and end the war: Matthew 24:22 before everyone nukes each other's brains out.

Christ does "NOT" come to fight the a/c and judge the world "with" the church. This is a "HUGE HUGE" error someone made and now has many people believing it. Probably someone writing bible study guides or making videos on YouTube giving their view?

4) After the indignation (after the tribulation), Christ (while on earth) sends His angels up to heaven to gather His elects (of the church) still waiting in heaven: Matthew 24:29-31.

Jesus is already on earth. He's not gonna go back up to heaven to gather His elects.

Matthew 24:29-31 NKJV
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is why you must have a gathering at the end of the tribulation. If there is no gathering, the elects (church) waiting in heaven will never be able to descend down to earth and reign with Christ the next 1000 years.

The gathering is NOT the rapture! The rapture happens before the tribulation, the gathering happens after the tribulation.

*****************************************

Keras, answer this question.

If Christ comes to earth to rapture the church after the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31? Who causes the tribulation to end? Who defeats the a/c and destroys all enemies? Who stops the war and prevent people from annihilating each other with nukes?

"Who causes the tribulation to end?"

The fact is, Christ does not descend from heaven at Matthew 24:29-31. There's no post tribulation rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 because there's no post trib without Christ first stopping the war.

.

.

Psalm3704 · Jan 14, 2016

iamlamad said:
Please understand, the bible exaggerates for effect: 1/3 will survive this.

That's correct. Many will successfully flee Jerusalem to safety before the transgression happens.

iamlamad said:

Is this speaking of AD 70 or the future of Jerusalem?

Click to expand...

It's ALL in the tribulation. Every scripture I posted is about the Jerusalem and Israel during the tribulation. The scripture you quoted: Isaiah 29:5-8 never happened in 70 AD. Nobody vanished (poof!) or was blown away like straws in 70 AD, least I've never found any records of it. It's in figurative language, wanna know what it means?

Isaiah 29:5-8 GNT
5 Jerusalem, all the foreigners who attack you will be blown away like dust, and their terrifying armies will fly away like straw. Suddenly and unexpectedly 6 the Lord Almighty will rescue you with violent thunderstorms and earthquakes. He will send windstorms and raging fire; 7 then all the armies of the nations attacking the city of God's altar, all their weapons and equipment—everything—will vanish like a dream, like something imagined in the night. 8 All the nations that assemble to attack Jerusalem will be like a starving person who dreams he is eating and wakes up hungry, or like someone dying of thirst who dreams he is drinking and wakes with a dry throat.

iamlamad said:
I think your imagination got away from you here. No nuke. Just the two edged sword of the words of our Lord Jesus. He did say He would send hundred pound hail stones. This is the battle of Aramageddon. No nuke: only GOD in his power.

Some here disagree with you, thinking Jesus was only talking about the TEMPLE proper. That certainly happened in 70 AD.

I don't think so: over-active imagination again.

Come on, guys, this is talking about when Antiochus, not the future!

Dan 8
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. [Alexander]

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

This is about the end of Greece as it once was. When Antiochus took over it was only a fraction of what it was when Alexander died. It continued for many more years, but almost as a ghost of what it was. The 2300 days was to clease the temple after Antiochus placed the image of Zeus there.

HISTORY NOT FUTURE.

Imagination gone wild here.

Wrong: HISTORY not future.

Revelation tells us the city will be burned. Would that destroy a stone temple?

I think you need to research Daniel 8.

Do you want an in-depth explanation of all the scriptures I've listed and reveal how they all show Jerusalem being nuked with a nuclear bomb during the AoD?

You can't see it just by reading Matthew 24 along. It took me many many different scriptures, old and new testament, to put a big puzzle together and finally realized this was what God was talking about. The evidence is overwhelming when they're all understood and combined together.

Your choice if you want the explanation. Might get lengthy tho.

.

Psalm3704 · Jan 14, 2016

Douggg said:
But those verses don't say that the temple will be destroyed.

Yes i know. It's why i listed many other scriptures. But I don't expect you to understand them all to put the puzzle together. I just wrote this message to Lamad. Do you want an in-depth explanation too?

Do you want an in-depth explanation of all the scriptures I've listed and reveal how they all show Jerusalem being nuked with a nuclear bomb during the AoD?

You can't see it just by reading Matthew 24 along. It took me many many different scriptures, old and new testament, to put a big puzzle together and finally realized this was what God was talking about. The evidence is overwhelming when they're all understood and combined together.

Your choice if you want the explanation. Might get lengthy tho.

Douggg said:
Those prophecies have already been fulfilled by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans.

An emphatic "no it is not" Doug. It's about the tribulation. Here's just the first two scriptures I listed in post #72.

Isaiah 64:9-12 NKJV
9 Do not be furious, O Lord,
Nor remember iniquity forever;
Indeed, please look—we all are Your people!
10 Your holy cities are a wilderness,
Zion is a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful temple,
Where our fathers praised You,
Is burned up with fire;
And all our pleasant things are laid waste.
12 Will You restrain Yourself because of these things, O Lord?
Will You hold Your peace, and afflict us very severely?

Jeremiah 26:18 NKJV
“Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Zion shall be plowed like a field,
Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins,
And the mountain of the temple
Like the bare hills of the forest.”’

Isaiah 64:10 said the cities, Zion and Jerusalem are a wilderness. Other translation's view. This didn't happen to Israel in the past.

Isaiah 64:10 (NIV) Your sacred cities have become a desert; even Zion is a desert, Jerusalem a desolation.

Isaiah 64:10 (GW) Your holy cities have become a desert. Zion has become a desert. Jerusalem is a wasteland.

Isaiah 64:10 (NCV) Your holy cities are empty like the desert. Jerusalem is like a desert; it is destroyed.

Isaiah 64:10 (NIRV) Your sacred cities have become a desert. Even Zion is a desert. Jerusalem is a dry and empty place.

In Jeremiah 26:18, the topography of Jerusalem will be change. This never happened in Jerusalem in the past and will take something devastating to alter the landscape of the city. This can only happen in the tribulation. Plus if you study Jeremiah 25-31, it's all about the final years before the tribulation leading up to the end of the tribulation.

Douggg said:
Jerusalem has to be in existence because Jesus returns to the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half making a way from them captive there a way for escape.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Jerusalem is still there but it's in ruins. Read verses 6-7, the city is in utter darkness, absolutely no light. Jerusalem is in ruins with no power or electricity, covered in a blanket of dark smoke from the fire.

Zechariah 14:6-7 NKJV
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

Douggg said:
Desolate means empty of the priests and the ordinances performed and the Jews worshiping there.

C'mon Douggg. This sounds like something Keras would say.

Douggg said:
If the sanctuary is trodden under foot, then it has to be in existence.

It's the Israelites who will be trampled down. The host is the Israelites. There will be a war there when the a/c and his army invades Jerusalem, the Israelites will fight back but be defeated. Many Israelites in Jerusalem have already scattered. Many outside Jerusalem in Judea will scatter too when they see the AoD set up in the holy place: Matthew 24:15-22. The a/c controls the city, sets up the AoD, dunno how manys later but then they're get nuked: Zechariah 14:12. What's left of the city stays under their control the entire second half of the tribulation until Christ returns to defeat the a/c and his army.

Daniel 8:13 (NKJV) Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?"

Daniel 8:13 (CEB) I then heard a certain holy one speaking. A second holy one said to the first one: "How long will this vision last—the one concerning the daily sacrifice, the desolating rebellion, and the handing over of the sanctuary and its forces to be trampled?"

Daniel 8:13 (CJB) Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the speaker, "How long will the events of the vision last, this vision concerning the regular offering and the transgression which is so appalling, that allows the sanctuary and the army to be trampled underfoot?"

Daniel 8:13 (GW) Then I heard a holy one speaking. Another holy one said to the one who was speaking, "How long will the things in this vision--the daily burnt offering, the destructive rebellion, the surrender of the holy place, and the trampling of the army--take place?"

Douggg said:
The 70th week temple will not be the millennium temple. The size of the 70th week temple, the sanctuary only has to be a minimum of 15 ft x 30 ft, the same as the tent tabernacle, in order to carry out the temple ceremonies. It will be small because of the short time given to construct it during the 70th week. It will be a temple, but considered an interim temple until the greater temple is undertaken.

That's what I was telling you. The 3rd/next Temple (Zerubbabel) and Ezekiel's Temple/4th Temple are not the same. Zerubbabel's Temple will be built where the temple mount is on Mount Moriah.

The 4th and final temple: Ezekiel's will be built on Mount Zion. Much much much bigger and 10 times better than any past temples.

If Zerubbabel's temple does not get destroy in the tribulation, why would there be a need to build Ezekiel's temple? That would put two temples in Jerusalem. Logically Zerubbabel's temple has to be destroy for anyone to build a new temple.

Douggg said:
No nuclear bomb is going to be dropped on Jerusalem. If that were to happen, there would be an empty hole in the ground and everyone in the city destroyed.

Go back to Jeremiah 26:18. The whole topography of Jerusalem will be change. Yes, you're probably right, maybe a hole on the ground 1/2 mile in diameters? Maybe this might be where the living water flows from? /shrugs?

.

Futurist Only Your end times scenario

Senior Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Lamad

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Lamad

Lamad

Lamad

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Newbie

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Lamad

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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