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Young Earth Six Day Creationism: The Scandal of the LCMS

Discussion in 'Theologia Crucis - Lutherans' started by GratiaCorpusChristi, Mar 23, 2015.

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  2. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I could never understand the 6 24-hour Days creation.

    It simply is not in the Bible.

    What amazes me the most are the Bible "scholars" who defend this view without even 1 clear verse supporting their theory.

    What "yom" means is a period of time. We translated it as "day".
    Genesis said there was a certain period of time between an evening and a morning.
    No one said 24 hours. Just a period of time - "yom".

    Even the Sun was not created till the 3rd "day" and the pull of the Sun is essential in influencing the rotation of Earth around own axis.

    How can Christianity go so off radar as far as Bible study is concerned?
     
  3. KEPLER

    KEPLER Crux sola est nostra theologia

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    While I happen to agree with Dr. Becker on this issue, he has gotten himself into hot water from all sorts of other issues, including actively participating in the installation of a woman pastor at Valpo. (By active, I mean he was vested and participated in the laying on of hands).

    Whether or not one agrees with women's ordination, a rostered LCMS pastor has no business participating in the installation of an ELCA pastor. If he wants to sit in the pews and be supportive of a fellow faculty member, I have no truck with that.

    K
     
  4. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh my ... Kepler is here. :wave:
     
  5. KEPLER

    KEPLER Crux sola est nostra theologia

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    Hey Ed, yeah, blast from the past and all that. I breeze through every now and then to see what's up and who's around.

    Cheers,

    K
     
  6. WirSindBettler

    WirSindBettler Hoc Est Verum

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    This is as dangerous as Seminex, in my opinion.

    The issue that Becker brings up should not be viewed in a pro-Science, anti-Science light, as he makes it out to be, but rather as one regarding Scriptural authority.

    Walk with me momentarily.

    Any ELCA members who left the denomination's predecessors during the Women's Ordination Crisis in the 1970s were simply sexists. Any ELCA members who left the denomination during the 2009 vote to ordain homosexuals were simply homophobes. The issue of the ELCA, at its root, is not the fact that it ordains women or gays. The issue is far deeper.

    Do you see what I'm getting at?

    The final blow occurred much earlier than either of these issues with the decision to implement the Historical-Critical method of Biblical interpretation. As soon as the ELCA decided its goal was to quote-unquote "understand" Scripture was when the metaphorical gavel began to fall.

    Our goal as Christians is not to "understand" Scripture, that is to be blown about by what Science remarks as true and the ways of the world claim to be undeniable, but rather, to stand under it.

    Frankly, as someone feeling called to the ministry, it scares me incredibly that members of the Synod endorse teachings of evolution and women's ordination, such as Becker, as it was the Synod's steadfast commitment to scripture that drew me to the denomination in the first place. After seeing how screwed up the ELCA was, I rushed to the LCMS believing that it would be truer to both the Bible and the Confessions, and that it would not blow willy nilly with theories of evolution, &c.

    By all means, if you want to preach evolution, feel free to. But don't try to drag the Synod down with you.

    Don't.

    If the LCMS strays even a hairs-breadth from the Scripture in this regard, I, along with President Harrison (as he has made abundantly clear), will leave the Synod, and will probably look towards WELS and the ELS.
     
  7. Yeah I seem to remember something about that. I thought the name sounded familiar. Wish it had been written by someone else.
     
  8. But I really, genuinely don't believe that Scripture teaches young earth six-day creationism, and I don't see why that should make me anything less than a member in good standing. I don't want to preach or teach evolution in church; I don't want to preach or teach young earth creationism in church. I want the law and the gospel, word and sacrament.
     
  9. Jd34

    Jd34 Junior Member

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    What about God creating Man. Was Adam created as an adult from the dust of the earth--- it sure seems to read that way. ???
     
  10. wondrousgnat

    wondrousgnat Newbie

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    I have had a difficulty with the theories of the age of the earth. Look at the Grand Canyon. It is very wide, more then a mile in some places, and very deep. All carved through solid rock. By what? The river is very small and actually vanishes into the soil. Zillions of tons of rock were carved out and where did it all go? There is virtually no deposit of eroded rock.
     
  11. Jd34

    Jd34 Junior Member

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    I don't have a problem with the 4.5billion year old earth theory. Much more likely than the biblical 5,000-6,000 year range
     
  12. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

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    Ed, I am on the way to a hospital visit 70 miles away, so don’t have time for full reply.

    But, don’t be fooled into thinking your response is sufficient. YOM (יומ), when joined ordinal numbers (1st, 2nd, etc.), is always 24 hour period in the entire OT. So, if you want it to be something other than 24 hour period, then this text in Genesis would have to be an exception, and there is nothing in the text to make it an exception. This coincides with Exodus 20 and the giving of the commandments.

    If not, then Yom can refer to an indefinite (but fixed) time.

    :wave:
     
  13. WirSindBettler

    WirSindBettler Hoc Est Verum

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    Actually, as someone who has read the OT in the original, this is not always the case. As I posted in a different thread, "Hebrew, unlike English, has a rather limited lexicon. Thus, in order to make words such as years, compounds of "yom" are used. "Yom" itself is not. For example, in the Hebrew "many days" (could be interpreted as a year) בַּיָּמִים is used, not simply יום. Thus, the word for year, when translated, is not simply "yom," but "yom" compounded, such as "many-days," "later-day," &c., &c. Besides this compound, "yom" is also looked at in terms of context. As the Genesis Creation story has no context insinuating anything other than literal 24-hour days, it would be wrong, when translating, to assume it meant anything else."

    The real issue with evolution is twofold, and though they do relate to Genesis, that is not the primary reason. First off is the issue of death. If you believe the rest of Scripture (excluding the creation) to be the inerrant and infallible word of God (as the LCMS holds it to be), than you cannot believe in evolution. By doing so, you deny Romans 5:12-13, which says, and I quote:

    Paul says that Adam brought death into the world. Yet if Adam was the product of evolution, then how would we have gotten past the primeval gloop, or evolved into man without death? What is natural selection without death? What is the survival of the fittest without death?

    Yet Scripture tells us there was no death before Adam, but also that Adam was a man. Explain.

    "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?” John 5:46-47

    Point two is the incredible slippery slope that evolution brings to scripture. When I was considering joining the ELCA (before I knew the LCMS existed), the Pastor at that congregation told me that a literal Adam and Eve did not exist.

    Can you see the problem in this?

    If a literal Adam and Eve did not exist, than there was no literal Eden. If there was no literal Eden then there was no literal temptation. If there was no literal temptation then there was no literal fall. With no literal fall, sin has not been brought into this world. Thus, we are reconciled to God, and Christ died for nothing.

    This is terrible theology.
     
  14. Evolution does not posit that Adam and Eve did not exist at all. It simply posits that Adam and Eve are not the sole natural ancestors of all living humans, because species are descended from population groups. But who cares if they weren't? If I can be credited with Christ's righteousness without being his natural, biological descendant, why can't I be credited with Adam's sinfulness without being his natural, biological descendant? After that, the result of your P -> Q chain falls apart.
     
  15. WirSindBettler

    WirSindBettler Hoc Est Verum

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    That still doesn't account for the Scriptural position that there was no death before Adam, which again would nullify the theory of evolution.
     
  16. Does Scripture actually say that? Or does it say that death gets it's power to separate us from God through sin? Death without sin exists, it is simply incapable of separating us from God. Rom 5:12 and 1 Cor 15:56
     
  17. And in all of this, I'd like to point out that I still affirm the existence of a historical Adam and a historical fall and do genuinely believe that I am being faithful to the testimony of Scripture. And that somehow means I should just go over to the ELCA and be condemned with the woman-ordainers and the gay-lovers?
     
  18. wondrousgnat

    wondrousgnat Newbie

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    My wife is ELCA (I am not). I have been involved in some of their activities. The people there are very nice and very good Christians. But yet they are too liberal for my taste. And the membership is shrinking and not being replaced to maintain it.
     
  19. WirSindBettler

    WirSindBettler Hoc Est Verum

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    You quoted Romans 5:12, which again says "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

    No death without sin.
     
  20. WirSindBettler

    WirSindBettler Hoc Est Verum

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    Again, the issues of female and homosexual ordination are not the root issues with the ELCA, but rather with their interpretation of Scripture. The Genesis creation, when read in context, is clear that the Earth was created in six 24 hour days.

    The Synod has affirmed this repeatedly as fundamental to the faith.

    If you don't agree with the Synod, then what's the point of staying in it, when you could be surrounded by people with the same interpretations as yourself?
     
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