Young Earth Six Day Creationism: The Scandal of the LCMS

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WirSindBettler

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Correct, however the fact remains that to God a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years are like a day.

We do see different clocks.

These verses read in context don't mean we see two different clocks, (notice how the verses above could be used to support the day-age theory), but rather to point out how God exists outside of space-time as we know it (i.e. foreknowledge).

I think we're in agreement, though.

"Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them."
Psalm 139:16
 
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Edial

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These verses read in context don't mean we see two different clocks, (notice how the verses above could be used to support the day-age theory), but rather to point out how God exists outside of space-time as we know it (i.e. foreknowledge).

I think we're in agreement, though.

"Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them."
Psalm 139:16
All you say is true, but since God is outside of time the way we understand time, He sees time differently.
In revelation we see that the sun would no longer be necessary and there be no more night since light would emanate from God's face, glory of God.
So the "Earth rotation and Sun" clock - is definitely no longer applicable. :)

I mean ... the way God sees it and the way we do in the context of time is different.

All I am saying is this - to say that the Bible states that 6 days of creation are based on 24 hours each because the Bible says so, is flatly incorrect.

Day means "yom" - period of time (undetermined)
The Sun that effects rotation of the Earth around its axis was not there until day 3.
Day one had a shapeless watery mass that was not even rotation. And once it started spinning and waters started to get gathered to one place and even pulled up beyond the sky show that earth started to rotate with centrifugal forces pushing the water out.

... this is becoming a long post. ^_^:sorry:
 
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Kotton

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The verse you quote does not explicitly say what you're pulling from it, but I can tell already you'll not entertain any other possibility. Not a single blade of grass, not a single created cell died before the fall. I find that position unnecessarily grandiose - even problematic.



Smearing views as "historical-critical" is just polemics. You have no better idea what Moses thought than I do what Joshua thought upon hearing his message the first time. It's not the author's original intent we want, but the Spirit's original intent. Lutherans reject the strict Protestant sola scriptura as well as the charismatic "spirit-led" thinking and the RCC "Christ's Vicar" papal position. While we give Scripture the final authority, we are not above using traditional sources (such as Concord) to give an exposition of Scripture.

I am well aware of the dangers of Jewish exegesis, and I did not mean to imply we are beholden to it. But to think Christianity started from scratch in its interpretations and translations of Scripture is just naive.

Regarding cell or plant "death" Many young earth creationists would say that life is defined in one of two ways. 1. That which has the breath of life. Breathing creatures only. 2. Only creatures with blood, the life is in the blood. Thus grass and single cells and perhaps insects would not count as living and dying. Thus Adam and Eve could have eaten all manner of fruit and vegetables and their hair could have grown. Probably not long until the fall as Adam was only 130 when Seth was born.
 
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Tetzel

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Seems to me that because tradition always precedes the written text (this goes for the NT as well) then the text reflects the God-inspired faith of the authors.
Is this certain? I can see what you're saying if we're talking about the Gospels or Acts, but does an epistle have a pre-existing tradition before it's written? You could say that about Luke's Gospel or Acts, which are reports of events some of which Luke did not witness first hand. Thus some kind of tradition/oral history is being processed by Luke. But when Paul or someone else writes a letter I don't see how there needs to be a tradition before the writing.
 
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ContraMundum

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Is this certain? I can see what you're saying if we're talking about the Gospels or Acts, but does an epistle have a pre-existing tradition before it's written? You could say that about Luke's Gospel or Acts, which are reports of events some of which Luke did not witness first hand. Thus some kind of tradition/oral history is being processed by Luke. But when Paul or someone else writes a letter I don't see how there needs to be a tradition before the writing.


Good question - I think Paul is passing on what he has already received in much of the Epistles (he mentions this on occasion too), but it is not hard to imagine much of his letter's content is first mentioned in the Epistles.
 
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Tangible

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The best take I've heard on this topic comes from Pr. Bill Cwirla, one of the hosts of the internet radio show 'The God Whisperers,' a widely respected LCMS pastor and also a trained and experienced chemist. He takes a 'from above' and 'from below' stance, similar to the two kinds of righteousness or other good Lutheran dichotomies. It has to do with the ontology of creation, how we know what we know, and for what purpose will we use this knowledge.

From below, all we can know is what we can see with our own eyes, what we can see and feel and measure and observe. From below, we can only know that the earth appears to be very old, that the current state of creation seems to have come about gradually over time, and that various identified processes seem to be at work, such as plate tectonics, climate change, evolution, etc. If we are doing science, and working within the framework of scientific thought, we accept these processes as tools useful for explaining and understanding the world in order to make use of it - not uncritically, but with a healthy skepticism typical of all scientific thought. In the pursuit of scientific advancement we accept these processes, once proven, as true within the framework of science, in a utilitarian sense.

From above, however, God has made it known through the Holy Spirit to mankind since the beginning of the world (2 Pet 1:21) that God created the world, that he created it within a short span of time, the order of creation, the means of creation, and the identity of the Creator. We do not know these things by scientific observation but through revelation alone. Not only this, but scripture clearly states that is through faith alone that we know that creation is a direct work of God. It is "by faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." (Heb 11:3). As it pertains to faith, theology, doctrine and godly living, we believe what we have received from the hand of God. Therefore we accept these revelations as true, because of our faith in the One who transcends time and space, who is the "Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it." (Isa 40:28)

So when the question of origins arises, it is best to know for what purpose the question is being asked, whether matters of faith or scientific endeavor. Then we can know which viewpoint is useful, God's view from above, or man's view from below.

This admittedly pragmatic approach goes a long way toward reconciling the two views in my mind, at least. It demonstrates why forcing the theological view into science is not really helpful or desirable; It is not falsifiable, demonstrable or repeatable, and therefore not scientific by definition. And it also demonstrates why trying to force a pseudo-scientific understanding onto a theological context is not really helpful or desirable either, despite what Ken Ham may say; It doesn't preach the free forgiveness of sins for the sake of Jesus Christ alone.
 
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FireDragon76

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I used to attend an OCA Orthodox Church. The priest talked about Adam and Eve like they were real people. But, I noticed most cradle Orthodox Christians do not try to force science and religion into a premature reconciliation, which is what I think "creationism", esp. "6-day creationism" is.
 
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