Young earth creationist questions

[Blue Wren]

Thanks for the information, 56Bluesman.

 

[56Bluesman]

Thanks for the information, 56Bluesman.

You are most welcome Blue Wren.

 

[classicalhero]

Anyone who believes the ancients taught that the Earth was flat, is kidding themselves.
Flat earth myth - creation.com

But I do wonder why it took a person who hated God to show us "the truth" and basically meaning God lied to people for many thousands of years.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The literal description of the earth in the Bible is that of a flat (rather than spherical) earth covered with a solid dome with windows that God opens at His will.

Correction: you impose a flat earth into the text and then appeal to the views of those who could not be expected to understand as we do today, whether we are talking about the earth, or whether we are talking about the revelation provided to us.

The Bible does not teach a flat earth. This has been addressed.

Ancient secular literature describes the earth in the same manner, these two sources together showing us the cosmology of the ancient Hebrew people.

How about their theology? Did they understand Messiah?

Again, an appeal to majority view is a false and deceptive platform to stand on. This too has been addressed.

Descriptions of the earth in the New Testament and secular literature prove that Christians adopted the ancient Hebrew cosmology of the Old Testament and continued to teach it up till the middle ages.

In your view it "proves" it, but the proof-texts you have provided...do not teach a flat earth. That people did believe the earth was flat is irrelevant. What is relevant is the Word of God itself. People used the same Word of God to promote numerous errors.

And they still do.

Rather than quoting from secular literature, I have consistently quoted from the Old and New Testaments in Hebrew and Greek respectively, and in English for the benefit of readers who are not able to read Hebrew and Greek.

And they have been addressed. Where do we see a flat earth in any Scripture you have provided?

Rather, we have seen a denial of what Scripture does say. You question whether the Lord could have been shown all the kingdoms of the world, despite the fact that we are dealing with a supernatural entity (Satan).

This proves flat earth teaching in Scripture? I would think most readers would not think of a flat earth and visibility due to being on a high mountain, but rather...a supernatural event.

And whether dome, vault, expanse, or firmament is used...you have to interject a view of what is below, because there is no description of what is above and below.

In other words, we cannot support what we believe by denying what others believe. The best we will get from that is to say our error is more reasonable than theirs. We have to focus on what is actually said and place it in the immediate and broader context of Scripture.

The fact that the literal description of the earth in the Bible is that of a flat (rather than spherical) earth covered with a solid dome with windows that God opens at His will proves that the Bible is NOT an accurate source of scientific information,

This is fabricated "fact." It was not a fact when people in the ancient world viewed the earth as flat, and it is not fact today.

And for the record, as already addressed, that the Bible is not a source of scientific information does not equate to what you are teaching...scientific error in Scripture, which undermines the veracity of Scripture, and just as everyone that is hostile to Scripture seeks to do, it is intended to provide something else as a basis for faith.

And that is the wisdom of men.

And we have to question such an agenda.

and that the age of the earth cannot be determined from the Bible.

I would agree, for the most part, however, a more important issue would not be whether we can determine the age of the earth, but the focus lies more on whether one embraces the truths taught in Scripture or one embraces the "truths" taught by men.

Old Earth belief does not have to embrace an evolutionary view, but can see a number of possibilities to explain why the earth might be viewed as old.

If one does not accept that God created man as a competed man, but embraces evolution, then they reject what Scripture teaches. There is no way to reconcile the two teachings.

However, the age of the earth can be, and has repeatedly been, determined from the science of radiometric dating.

So says 3 million scientists, who have no clue as to the conditions at the time of Creation. Perhaps Gap Restoration Theorists are correct, and the earth is billions of years old, and dating techniques are not more fabricated "facts" of Secular Humanists.

But again, there is no reconciliation between Evolution and the Word of God.

Indeed, the earth has been accurately and certainly determined to be 4.5 - 4.6 billion years old.

Indeed, the earth's age has constantly changed since the Theory of Evolution began to gain popularity among the majority of scientists.

The facts are always changing, and it is Science which forces the changes that have arisen in Evolution.

Not sure how you can use the word "accurately" with a straight face, seeing it has not been a constant age given since dating techniques were introduced as "evidence" and "proof" of Evolution.

For an excellent, substantiating article from a Christian perspective, please see the following:

Radiometric Dating

Which is one reason I do not appeal to any "Creation Science" sites, because some of them embrace an Old Earth view.

And their Theological Error should be a good clue to the unreliability of men.

That is why the focus must be on the Word of God.

I have never, in this thread or elsewhere, used biblical facts or arguments from the Bible to teach or advocate for the theory of evolution.

Not sure how you can say that with a straight face wither, when that has been your argument all along, summed up by "Don't believe the Bible...it is in error! Believe the men who can scientifically point out the errors of Scripture! Even the Greeks did this in the ancient world!"

Moreover, charactering the theory of evolution as being a doctrine secular humanism is a maliciously false characterization.

On the contrary, it is the wisdom of God rejecting men from it's beginning, and continues to be the basis of belief of...every atheist.

Do you really want to defend Evolution that badly, that you will ignore some pretty basic details concerning it?

Christians that embrace evolution may in fact be Christians who are deceived, just like we see Christians who are deceived into works-based salvation, thus cancelling out the Gospel of Christ and creating another gospel. But Evolution stands as a primary doctrinal position of all atheists, and that cannot be denied.

Indeed, the theory of evolution is accepted as true by tens of millions of Christians,

Not sure why you keep offering this argument. It has been addressed before. Repeating it will not make it any more true in this post than it did ten posts ago.

And it is not taught as theory, but fact. And it is very likely that many of the Christians that have accepted it as true are also confused about the Gospel of Christ as well.

Can we see a correlation to the stranglehold liberal views have in our modern culture and an embrace of evolution? I think we can.

Evolution teaches that man is just another animal, a product of chance, and it is no wonder why we see people treating other people...as animals.

Again, Evolution cannot be reconciled to Scripture, and it is pretty disgusting to see someone try to do that and call it a "Christian View."

and is taught in Christian universities around the world as a valid, scientific theory.

Correction: it is taught, just as you are doing...as incontrovertible fact.

Lets keep the facts straight, as best as we can.

It is my belief that on a Christian forum, all participants should make a consecrated effort to consistently post the truth in a respectful manner.

I agree, but that doesn't mean we feel bad because someone think they are being attacked when their doctrine is confronted.

If you feel I have been disrespectful, post what it is that you feel was disrespectful and I will examine it. It is never my intention to be disrespectful, but it is never my intention, for one second, to validate the false doctrines which are constantly taught on forums.

Sometimes antagonism between views implies antagonism towards individuals, but that is not the case. I have consistently asked for a focus on Scripture, and have addressed what Scripture has been presented to show Scripture is in error, and that Science is a more reliable source of truth.

Evolution has, from the beginning, been a theory seeking justification, and this Belief System is no different than any other religious group. Instead of trying to bring out of Scripture what is taught, most will impose into Scripture their own religion. By this method the millions of Catholics justify their doctrine. The millions of Charismatics justify their doctrine. The millions of Mormons justify their doctrine...

...need I go on?

All I can say to those who approach the Word of God in that manner is...

...welcome to Religion.


God bless.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Anyone who believes the ancients taught that the Earth was flat, is kidding themselves.
Flat earth myth - creation.com
But I do wonder why it took a person who hated God to show us "the truth" and basically meaning God lied to people for many thousands of years.

From the article:

For the last 200 years or so, many anti-Christians have resorted to a scurrilous lie (acting consistently with their worldview1): that the early and medieval Christian Church taught that the earth is flat.2
One of the most prominent recent examples is probably the most powerful man in the world, the US President Barack Hussein Obama:​

This article is an excellent example of the extreme dishonesty of young earth creationist organizations and how they rely upon smear tactics to defend their beliefs. All scholars on the subject agree that up UNTIL the Middle Ages the church taught that the earth was flat rather than spherical. Please notice that the article does not provide any evidence at all against this fact, but only evidence that DURING the middle ages some people in the church taught that the earth is spherical—a fact that no one denies!

Based upon a literal interpretation of the verses that I quoted above, the Church universally taught until the Middle Ages that the earth is flat rather than spherical….

Moreover, President Obama is not even familiar with the issue, so quoting him and smearing his name is nothing but disgraceful conduct at its very worst. Furthermore, the words “anti-Christians have resorted to a scurrilous lie (acting consistently with their worldview)” are nothing more that a furtherance of their dishonest smear campaign against the truth.

 

[The Fundamentalist]

There are two spirits [1 John 4:6] in the world, the True [Romans 8:11] and the false [Ephesians 2:2]:

A tool for all to use to combat the false; [Biblical Creation & History Link]

Proverbs 18:13 KJB - He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
​

Biblical Historical Timeline [SDA]:

The Biblical Timeline

Longevity [Ages of the Patriarchs] Chart [non-SDA]:

http://www.3bible.com/illustrations/CSE Longevity Chart Adam to Joseph.pdf

Creation:

Total Onslaught 251 - The World According to Darwin; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

7751 - The World According to Darwin / Total Onslaught Mini Series - Walter Veith - YouTube

Testimony of Walter J Veith - From Evolutionist to Creationist; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlJH7A5NHT8

Genesis Conflict 01 - The Earth in Time and Space; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMU1soRrtJk

Genesis Conflict 02 - A Universal Flood; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

102 - A Universal Flood / Genesis Conflict - Walter Veith - YouTube

Genesis Conflict 03 - Bones In Stones; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

103 - Bones in Stones / Genesis Conflict - Walter Veith - YouTube

Genesis Conflict 04 - Where Mammals Reigned; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

104 - Where Mammals Reigned / Genesis Conflict - Walter Veith - YouTube

Genesis Conflict 05 - The Genes of Genesis; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

105 - The Genes of Genesis / Genesis Conflict - Walter Veith - YouTube

Genesis Conflict 06 - Creation to Restoration; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

106 - Creation to Restoration / Genesis Conflict - Walter Veith - YouTube

Genesis Conflict 07 - A Day To Be Remembered; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyQY5Z3GeG4

Genesis Conflict 08 - A Spade Unearths The Truth; Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA]:

108 - A spade Unearths the Truth / Genesis Conflict - Walter Veith - YouTube


For More from Professor/Pastor Walter J Veith [SDA], please visit His Ministry Website [I recommend the Total Onslaught, Final Onslaught to begin with]:

Categories - Amazing Discoveries TV

You may also find those materials here:

Amazing Discoveries | Pearltrees

Lecture at College, Polonium Halos, Falsifiable Evidence For Young Earth [6k] Creation, the Created Rocks, by Dr. Robert V Gentry [Nuclear Physicist] [SDA]:

Polonium halos - falsifiable hypothesis of young earth - synthesizing granite - YouTube

The Fingerprints of Creation; Dr. Robert V Gentry [Nuclear Physicist] [SDA]:

Fingerprints Of Creation - English - YouTube

The Young Age Of The Earth; Dr. Robert V Gentry [Nuclear Physicist] [SDA]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttPuVH4jXc

For more from Dr. Robert V Gentry [ Nuclear Physicist] [SDA], please visit:

Video Evidence for Earth's Instant Creation - Polonium Halos in Granite and Coal - Earth Science Associates

[Home] Evidence for Earth's Instant Creation - Polonium Halos in Granite and Coal - ESA

Dealing with the collapse of the Big Bang theory [which theory came from the Jesuit [Roman Catholic] Georges LeMaitre], see here:

Orion Foundation: Exposing the Flaws in the Big Bang Theory

You may also find those same resources together, here:

Halos | Pearltrees

The Days of Genesis, Literal, 24hr, Consecutive, Days 1 Week, the Bible, Language, etc, by Gerhard F Hasel [Professor Andrews University] [SDA]:

Hasel, G. F. --- The "Days" of Creation in Genesis 1

There are many more such sources, but moving onto non-SDA, I will also leave with you the evidence that others also have found and do see. I may not agree with every theological thing they say necessariy, but never-the-less, there is a treasure trove of evidence to be had by all that God has left.

A Must See Secret History of Dinosaurs/Dragons:

A MUST SEE-The Secret History of Dinosaurs - YouTube

Why I Believe In Unicorns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YQooBFIPdY


For More see:

Creation Websites [Main Pages, Resources] | Pearltrees

God in Ancient China, The Language of the Chinese, Proves the earth is 6k years old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-AkJzpKmg

The Discovery of Genesis in Ancient China, the Language of China, Book:

http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/genesis.pdf

How The Chinese Characters [Language] confirm the Young Age of the Earth and Genesis and Flood Accounts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tSD49zRZxg

The Scriptural Age of the Earth; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mub7cIVUU9I

How Old Is The Earth; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgpflnRYsk

The Laws of Science; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbh7S6WWdMc

What Is Creation Science; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

Intro to Creation Science: What your University Professors Won't Tell You - Dr. Don Patton - YouTube

The Fossil Record; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

The Fossil Record - Dr. Don Patton - YouTube

The Fossil Men; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

Fossil Man - Dr. Don Patton - YouTube

Evidence That Dinosaurs lived with Man, and were Buried with Man in the Flood; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWe3cteDuBc

Archeology And The Bible; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ZU2oUaYZ0

The Dead Sea Scrolls And The Undeniable Proof Of The Accuracy And Historicity Of The Bible; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAp6KUwEBZs

The History of the Flood and Facts About Noahs Ark; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AVxRVXHYqo

Malachite Man; by Dr. Don Patton [Geologist, Archeologist, etc] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX6KIQVFnZE


For more see the Creation and History Section at the Pearltrees Link given above.

Creation Astronomy, The Heavens Declare The Glory of God; by Spike Psarris [ex-Nasa Engineer, ex-evolutionist] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPTcnZXN8WY

Our Solar System, Evidence of Creation; by Spike Psarris [ex-Nasa Engineer, ex-evolutionist] [Baptist]:

Official DVD Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr8Az3QQZdI

Presentation at a church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9_o7NGTkJc

Our Created Universe; by Spike Psarris [ex-Nasa Engineer, ex-evolutionist] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na2TL-wcK4I

Young Earth, Young Universe; by Spike Psarris [ex-Nasa Engineer, ex-evolutionist] [Baptist]:

Young Earth - Young Universe - YouTube

The Big Bang Never Happened; by Spike Psarris [ex-Nasa Engineer, ex-evolutionist] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-B2hACS0dQ

Defeating Atheism With Science; by Spike Psarris [ex-Nasa Engineer, ex-evolutionist] [Baptist]:

Defeating Atheism with Science - YouTube

Complete Interview With Spike Psarris and Ian Juby [Wazooloo; Producer of Genesis Week] [Baptists]:

Complete interview with Spike Psarris for Genesis Week with Ian Juby/aka wazooloo - YouTube

For More from Spike, sign up for His News Letter, here:

Creation Astronomy | Spike Psarris

For more, see the Pearltrees Link above.

The Great Dinosaur Deception; by Dr. Thomas J Kindell [Assemblies of God], his bio may be found here - Thomas Kindell's Biography

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKohJ4bduaE

Worldwide Evidence for a Global Flood; by Dr. Thomas J Kindell [Assemblies of God]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScxEvlj0tWQ

The Laws of Thermodynamics; by Dr. Thomas J Kindell [Assemblies of God]:

Thermodynamic Arguments for Creation - YouTube

Evidence For a Young Earth; by Dr. Thomas J Kindell [Assemblies of God]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaL0TUVMjpI

For More, please see the Pearltrees Link above.

 

[The Fundamentalist]

The HydropPlate Theory in the Global Flood, by Dr. Walt Brown [Engineer]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9ZGt9UA-U

These are meant to be Serious and Fun at the same time, explanations of Science and the Scientific Method, but in an Ironic/Humorous way:

Creation-Evolution Rant 100; The Dating Methods; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

Dating methods: CrEvo Rant #100 with Wazooloo - YouTube

Creation-Evolution Rant 101; Carbon 14 Dating; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wMV8Hw99yg

Creation-Evolution Rant 135; Peer Review And Creationists [Young Earth]; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rhF9R9re_s

Creation-Evolution Rant 78; The Boat That Don't Float]; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XZ7LYi85xU

For more Creation Evolution Rants by Ian Juby, please see:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB228C26CBD74D87B

Or here:

Wazooloo - Ian Juby - Creation/Evolution Rants | Pearltrees


These are more serious, as it is part of the Genesis Week Program:

Genesis Week, Season 3, Episode 23; 10 Questions For Creationists [Young Earth]; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx32JqqNN98

Genesis Week, Season 2, Episode 11; The Age of the Earth; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WThPGrioA4o

Genesis Week, Season 2, Episode 21; A Flood of Evidence; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnfXvPZhjfs

Genesis Week, Season 2, Episode 30; Geological Column Busted; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZzIihVUti4

Genesis Week, Season 2, Episode 37; Finale; Fossil Record Busted!; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTWZJBXAZJA

Genesis Week, Season 1, Episode 10; Layers of Time; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAHFU3Ub7mA

Genesis Week, Season 2, Episode 25; Toad You So!; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XCES79ymeU

Genesis Week; Special Edition Episode; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AuM3rrRmBA

Genesis Week; Interview With Mark Armitage; Fresh Dinosaur Tissue, Blood, Cells Found and Documented!; by Ian Juby [Engineer; Producer of Genesis Week; Mensa Member; ie Hi IQ] [Baptist]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w28FqN1X17s


For More on Genesis Week, see here:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL608FF9C588CFD9BC

Or Here:

Wazooloo - Ian Juby - Genesis Week Episodes | Pearltrees

For More on Complete Creation Series, please see:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL11166601CA0FB279

Or Here:

Wazooloo - Ian Juby - Complete Creation & More | Pearltrees

The Powerful Documentary is Coming out Soon, The Mystery of Noahs Flood, by Ian Juby:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9u32oTLHQs

http://mysteryofnoahsflood.com/

Sneak Peek at the Documentary:

Mystery of Noah’s Flood Preview | Mystery of Noah's Flood

etc.

No Evolution, No Long Ages, Stratification of the Geology:

No Evolution: Stratification

God of Wonders 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAuGRhZsMCs

High-Tech Society; Pastor Billy Crone of Get A Life Ministries [he is a little loud and a bit sarcastic] [non-SDA]:

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua1kqAPeIVU

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z1OufLYhMw

Further Data:

James Hutton [Lawyer] - James Hutton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Charles Lyell [Lawyer, Uniformitarianism] - Charles Lyell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- Charles Lyell - Lawyer, "The present is the key to the past." [uniformitarianism, ie warned of in 2 Peter 3:4, in fact so much ,that an old wiki definition of uniformitarianism sounded like it was quoted from this very scripture!, I'll see if I can find my old quote, I may not have it anymore.], Charles Lyell lied to destroy the bible, which he hated.

Here is what Charles Lyell wrote:

"... I conceived the idea five or six years ago, that if ever the Mosaic geology could be set down without giving offense, it would be in an historical sketch..." [Life, Letters And Journals Of Sir Charles Lyell, Bart. Page 217] - Life, Letters and Journals of Sir Charles Lyell, Bart - Sir Charles Lyell - Google Books
​

Science? No, hatred for Scripture. A dangerous Bias, which now continues in the compromise of Christians, which the origins or dating rock layers had anything to do with science rather than purely made up imagination from a antibiblical philosophy. He, among others, set out to deliberately destroy 'Moses' and the 'geology' set forth by God.

Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître [Big Bang founder/theorist; Roman Catholic Jesuit] - Georges Lemaître - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is of course, a whole lot more. Much more. And if you would like, I would share with you all that I have been given of God. What is mine is yours, for freely I have received, thus freely I give to you... That you may also know the Truth, and that you may be set free from anything which is not Truth.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21​

 

[The Fundamentalist]

Not only was Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître [Big Bang founder/theorist; Roman Catholic Jesuit] - Georges Lemaître - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...but so Lamarck [Lamarckism, still utilized in evolutionary theory] also Jesuit trained:

"... Yielding to the wishes of his father, Lamarck enrolled in a Jesuit college in Amiens in the late 1750s.[3] ..." - Jean-Baptiste Lamarck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

There is more, much more, for instance, the Jesuit Pierre Teilhard deChardin, Jesuit, and promoter of Evolutionism...

Roman Catholicism involved with pilt-down man...

"... Woodward's reconstruction included apelike canine teeth, which was itself controversial. In August 1913, Woodward, Dawson and Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest and friend of Dawson who had trained as a paleontologist and geologist, began a systematic search of the spoil heaps specifically to find the missing canines. Teilhard soon found a canine that, according to Woodward, fitted the jaw perfectly. ..." - Piltdown Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

It is Roman Catholicism, which promotes the Compromise, for they deny the global flood and reduce it to ethno-centric [localized] flood. Th Global Flood destroys evolutionsim, placing an eternal time-event barrier at approx 4,400 to 4,500 years ago.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

It is Roman Catholicism, which promotes the Compromise, for they deny the global flood and reduce it to ethno-centric [localized] flood. Th Global Flood destroys evolutionsim, placing an eternal time-event barrier at approx 4,400 to 4,500 years ago.

We know for an incontrovertible fact that there never was a global flood, and it is disingenuous to criticize Roman Catholics for telling us the truth.

 

[Blue Wren]

We know for an incontrovertible fact that there never was a global flood, and it is disingenuous to criticize Roman Catholics for telling us the truth.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

It is nearly impossible to find even two public-arena advocates of the global flood story who agree on such issues as the number of animals aboard Noah’s ark, the kinds of animals aboard the ark, whether the they were infant or adult animals, where the water came from, where the water went to after the flood, how much water was needed, what and how much the animals ate, how the food was kept sufficiently fresh, how the animals got to the ark from distant continents, what the animals ate after the flood, and very many other issues. Some other issues are very seldom talked about at all, such as how the salt-water fish were able to survive in nearly fresh water. Nearly all of the public-arena advocates of the global flood story claim that Genesis 6-8 is a historical narrative that should be interpreted literally, but at the same time severely alter the story by adding to it a vast multitude of miracles that refute the very point of the narrative.

Students in high school have noted the following problems with the story:

• There are today about 2,000,000 genetically distinct populations of animals living on the earth. If we assume a date of about 2,349 B.C. for the flood (Bishop Ussher’s date), microevolution reduces the number of “kinds” of animals that must have been aboard the ark (to account for the about 2,000,000 genetically distinct populations of animals living on the earth today) to a few hundred thousand “kinds.”

• The several thousands of “kinds” of animals, including the dinosaurs, mammoths, giant ground sloths, etc., which have become extinct must also be considered. Did they all become extinct before the flood? If not, they were, according to the account in Genesis, aboard the ark.

• The ark, as literally described in Genesis, was much too small because the amount of water that it would be capable of displacing would weigh less than the animals on board, thus making it impossible for the ark to float.

• The floor space on the ark was too small to hold any more than a tiny fraction of the cages that would be necessary to keep the animals in place (and from eating each other).

• The amount of food required for the animals would weigh at least nearly as much as the animals, and would require a vast amount of storage space.

• Many of the animals aboard the ark would have required specific FRESH fruits, vegetables, leaves, grass, bark, roots, etc., including fresh fruits that are produced only on MATURE plants. Therefore, these mature plants would necessarily have been kept and maintained aboard the ark, and subsequently planted in the ground after the flood.

• Most of the genetically discrete populations of fish (including many VERY LARGE fish) would have to be taken aboard the ark and kept in tanks of water that met their very specific water chemistry needs in order to survive.

• The weight of the water on the earth would have crushed to death any of the land plants that did not drown in the water.

• After 150 days when the water abated, there would be no vegetation on the earth for the herbivores to eat, and no meat for the carnivores to eat, therefore a vast amount of food would necessarily have been kept aboard the ark to sustain the animals AFTER the flood.

• The Animals could not all be released all at once or in the same place because many of them would eat each other.

• The coming of the animals to Noah from all over the earth would have been a physical impossibility no less impossible than Santa Clause delivering presents to every boy and girl on the night before Christmas. The polar bears and penguins, not to mention all of the unique kinds of animals in Australia, would have posed more than a few special difficulties.

• After the flood, the animals could not be returned to their original habitat because all habitats would have been destroyed by the flood.

• Many of the necessary habitats would take 50 years or more to be reestablished and their reestablishment would have required the effort of many thousands of persons.

• Until all the necessary habitats could be reestablished, the animals requiring these habitats would have to be kept and cared for by Noah and his family.

• There was not enough water to cover the entire earth, and even if there was, where did it go after the flood?

• If the reported sightings of the Ark are factual, the Ark came to rest on a VERY high mountain on VERY rugged terrain from which the large majority of the animals would not have been able to descend.


A literal reading of Genesis 6-8 includes only four miracles:

1. God spoke to Noah (Gen 6:13-21; Gen. 7:1-4; Gen 8:17-18)

2. The LORD shut Noah in the ark (Gen. 7:16, KJV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, NAB, etc.)

3. “all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.” (Gen. 7:11, NRSV)

4. “God made a wind blow over the earth” (Gen. 8:1, NRSV)

Therefore, the narrative of Noah’s Ark cannot be a literal account of an historic event. Indescribably huge and very numerous miracles would have been necessary, and a literal interpretation of Genesis does not allow for these miracles because the point of the narrative is that through the natural, physical means of an ark built by Noah and his family, mankind and all the kinds of animals were saved from the floodwaters.

 

[mikedsjr]

I choose to believe the Bible, today’s biblical scholarship, and the 3,000,000 plus scientists whose research unintentionally, but no less certainly, confirms the accuracy of today’s biblical scholarship regarding the correct interpretation of Genesis 1-11.

I'm not a YECer. I respect the view because their has a Scriptural reason why people would see this. It quite honestly the most straight forward reason to understand. I respect science too, but I'm reject empiricism. I reject that Truth is ultimately empirical and only explainable by our senses. The rejection that God must abide by the rules of nature is utterly ridiculous. He is the author and his is not bound by them.

I will continue to stress to you that you have deemed religion a value, based on a philosophical stance on what Truth is. And because of this, you are forced to reject Scripture as inerrant.

What I can believe, from science, is the earth is millions of years old. How God worked would lie within the framework of what he stated in Scripture. Man is not evolutionary evolved, because Scripture says Man was formed from the dust of the ground and woman from the rib of man. They were sinless. The did live long lives. They ate from a tree in the Garden of Eden. God cursed the ground because of them. God cursed them with physical and spiritual death. They would not have died apart from eating the forbidden fruit. It is due to Adam's sin man works the ground, wears clothing, feels ashamed, and sins. And it is through Christ's death burial and resurrection that he, the second Adam, has become our redeemer who put their faith in him and are baptized. Luke acknowledges Adam. Hebrews acknowledges Abel's sacrificial offering. Hebrews acknowledges Noah and the ark commanded him to build. Jude acknowledges Cain, Enoch and Adam.

Thankfully salvation doesn't require you to believe this, but it certainly makes your witness inconsistent and turns Scripture into moral stories and turns the life of Jesus into a mystery why his life was required, except as some moral story, an example. I certainly hope you aren't that inconsistent.

 

[The Fundamentalist]

It is ...

If either of you would like to present your reasons why to me personally, I would be glad to open the Scriptures, and delve into the Sciences with you by PM, as I am not allowed to 'counter' in this Baptist forum, and if either of you choose to continue by PM, I would have answers to each of your points from those sources for you there and hopefully you can see what I have come to see, for I used to believe as you [in this area of Creation, since I was born and raised Roman Catholic for 30 years, confirmed, etc], until the evidence from those sources, Scripture and Science [and its various fields], Logic, etc and the Holy Spirit got my attention.

Thank you.

Please peruse, in the mean-time, and/or otherwise, the already presented materials [which are titled fairly well for ease of use] from Baptists and others, Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God, etc, as the points you raised are also already addressed therein as well.

This invitation is open to you PrincetonGuy or Blue Wren presently, and I gladly await to hear from you.

I am open to the Truth, and nothing less will do.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Religion is religion; science is science. I am an advocate for teaching an academically defensible interpretation of the Scriptures that glorifies the Creator while manifesting to man his need for salvation from his sins through his personal faith in Christ Jesus.

I was originally educated as a scientist, and subsequently in biblical exegesis and translation theory. Science has a love for the natural, but a disregard for the supernatural. Religion has a love for the supernatural, and a tolerance for the natural. Christianity focuses on the spiritual while not taking her eyes off of the physical,

Luke 9:10. On their return the apostles told Jesus all they had done. He took them with him and withdrew privately to a city called Bethsaida.
11. When the crowds found out about it, they followed him; and he welcomed them, and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who needed to be cured. (NRSV)

When Genesis 1-11 is read with a focus on the physical, the message is blurred and distorted. When Genesis 1-11 is read with a focus on the spiritual while not taking one’s eyes off of the physical, the message is clear and understood as the word of God.

I'm not a YECer. I respect the view because their has a Scriptural reason why people would see this. It quite honestly the most straight forward reason to understand. I respect science too, but I'm reject empiricism. I reject that Truth is ultimately empirical and only explainable by our senses. The rejection that God must abide by the rules of nature is utterly ridiculous. He is the author and his is not bound by them.

I will continue to stress to you that you have deemed religion a value, based on a philosophical stance on what Truth is. And because of this, you are forced to reject Scripture as inerrant.

Scripture is inerrant so long as it is read as inspired Scripture with a focus on the spiritual rather than the physical. When Scripture is read with a focus on the physical rather than the spiritual, the Scriptures are reduced to a collection of erroneous concepts that make a mockery of God who is falsely accused of inspiring them.

To believe in science is not to disbelieve in God and His revelation to man; to believe in science and to study it opens windows to storehouses of knowledge about God and His creation—storehouses much too large and wonderful to fit into the pages of a single, leather-bound volume; storehouses of knowledge that do not contradict the message of the Bible, but with each succeeding age help us to understand that message more precisely and more majestically. Yes, some men, in their wild imagination, have abused science, using it to suit their own purpose rather than the purpose of God, but that is not the fault of science, but the fault of the abusers.

 

[The Fundamentalist]

I noticed two videos not functioning by the old links I had, so here is their correction and updated links:

The Young Age Of The Earth; Dr. Robert V Gentry [Nuclear Physicist] [SDA]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W12jUKnPbHI

The Great Dinosaur Deception; by Dr. Thomas J Kindell [Assemblies of God],:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUUJULlzQcM

 

[classicalhero]

@PrincetonGuy, then you should have ample evidence of quote stating that belief then, so provide them.

 

[mikedsjr]

Princeton,

I do realize we won't agree, but I certainly don't want to wrongfully understand your position. I think this has a bearing since you speak so highly and trust science to teach us more about God and Scripture. Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin, that this was not some child birth from another man but the Holy Spirit caused, not in any physical sexual way she would recognize but completely miraculously, place Jesus in her womb? Did Jesus literally walk on water? Did he literally turn water into wine out of thin air? Did the 5000 men get fed from the bread and win Jesus blessed and no other bread and fish source was used? Did Jesus call out for Lazarus and Lazarus, truly dead, arose? When Moses raised the staff, did God divide the water allowing the people to cross? Did Shad, Mach, and Abend get thrown into a fire together without getting burned and Jesus, the fourth person literally appear? Did Jesus cause the flood waters to rise, along with the Father and Holy Spirit?

I don't want to put words in your mouth. I just want to understand what your limit to what is true history and what is made up historical events are.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Princeton,

I do realize we won't agree, but I certainly don't want to wrongfully understand your position. I think this has a bearing since you speak so highly and trust science to teach us more about God and Scripture. Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin, that this was not some child birth from another man but the Holy Spirit caused, not in any physical sexual way she would recognize but completely miraculously, place Jesus in her womb? Did Jesus literally walk on water? Did he literally turn water into wine out of thin air? Did the 5000 men get fed from the bread and win Jesus blessed and no other bread and fish source was used? Did Jesus call out for Lazarus and Lazarus, truly dead, arose? When Moses raised the staff, did God divide the water allowing the people to cross? Did Shad, Mach, and Abend get thrown into a fire together without getting burned and Jesus, the fourth person literally appear? Did Jesus cause the flood waters to rise, along with the Father and Holy Spirit?

I don't want to put words in your mouth. I just want to understand what your limit to what is true history and what is made up historical events are.

I believe that the Bible is the true, inspired word of God. I was born and grew up as a sinner, but God, in accord with His sovereign will, had brought into this sinful world His only begotten son, born of the Virgin Mary, to proclaim the kingdom of God, performing miracles and good deeds, and to die on a cross, shedding his blood for the sins of us all.

I rejected as silly nonsense, as do most young people, the message of the Bible as it was presented to me by Christian fundamentalists, but God had a very different plan for my life, and the Holy Spirit used Christians in my community to share with me the love that Jesus had for me. When I told these Christians that I could not believe the Bible because it taught fables as facts, they told me not to concern myself with what I could not reconcile with the truth, but to believe in Jesus who loves me. I had no evidence against that concept, and these Christians, through their sacrificial love for me, manifested to me what I had never seen before—a light that shined so brightly that it illuminated the sins in my life. They did not have to tell me that I was a sinner—they manifested to me that fact by showing me their lives—not pretentiously, but as my friends.

Nevertheless, I still could not believe in their Jesus. One Sunday night, however, after the close of the service, the youth pastor asked me if he could pray for me. I thought that that would be harmless enough, so I gave him my permission. He sat me down in a front pew and began to pray for me—out loud! The rest of the congregation rallied behind him and also prayed out loud—for my salvation! At midnight, the youth pastor brought the prayers to a close and asked me if I would like to accept Jesus as my savior. I replied, “No, I wouldn’t.” A family with five children gave me a ride home, and on the way one of the girls commented to her parents that they had never before stayed at church that late! Not with school the next day!

I did not realize it yet, but God heard those prayers—and the Holy Spirit began to work in my life through a series of events that only God Himself could orchestrate! I half-heartedly asked Jesus to save me, continued to publicly deny Him for three weeks, and then it happened! I was walking down the street one “ordinary” night and suddenly, from heaven, Jesus reached out and took hold of my entire being and baptized me in the Holy Spirit. Instantly, I knew that the hand of God had touched me, and that I was no longer the man that I used to be! Right away, I began sharing with unbelievers the love that Christ had for them and His earnest desire for them to embrace Him as their Lord and their Savior. And they believed the gospel as I proclaimed it to them—and right before my eyes, I saw them transformed from mere sinful men into children of God! I saw captives set free; I saw a lame man jump out of his chair with a shout, run down a long flight of stairs, run around the block, and run back up the stairs shouting and praising God! I saw my best friend on her deathbed with cancer made whole and healthy again, get married to a man in our church, and bear four healthy children. I saw God touch the hearts and minds of obstinate Christians who had been resisting His will, causing them to turn around 180 degrees!

I witnessed a cold-blooded murderer resist for months the call of God upon his life as he visited me repeatedly while I was serving as the senior pastor of a church. He always insisted upon speaking with me in the privacy of my office or in a remote area of the church where we would both have complete privacy. He saw no value whatsoever in human life, and for him, taking an innocent life was just one of those things that occasionally needed to be done. I knew that he would take my life, if he deemed it to be appropriate at the time. As we talked on several nights, I studied his face—searching for the slightest sign that the word of God was penetrating his calloused heart, but there was nothing there but a blank, empty stare. And then a month passed during which he did not come to see me. Then one night, a visitor came to the church and asked to speak with me in my office. I politely sat him down in the chair right across from me and asked him what I could do for him. He began to speak, and right away I recognized his voice—but I had no recollection of seeing him before. I studied his face also, hoping to learn whose voice it was that I was recognizing, but his face—I had never seen it before. But as I continued hearing his voice, I realized who he was! But no, it couldn’t be, it wasn’t him—but it was! He was the murderer! He had spent a month in jail for a minor, unrelated offense—and while in jail he had visions of hell and became so frightened that he asked Jesus to save him. And Jesus saved him, causing him to become a new man in Christ. His countenance had been changed so radically that I did not recognize his face! He had come to see me to share with me what God had done for him.

Do I believe in the resurrected Christ? Yes! Do I believe that Jesus worked real and genuine miracles, and that He is still working real and genuine miracles? Yes.

 

[mikedsjr]

Princeton, I appreciate you sharing your testimony and the amazing transformations of other lives. It has blessing to see those things yourself.

I'm still a bit unsure of how you would answer some of the questions i had, and i certainly don't expect answers to all of them. I'll take one you stated and an old test story:
1. Do you believe their is a scientific explanation for Jesus' resurrection or was it completely of the Godhead, 3 in 1?
2. When Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were thrown into the fiery furnace, was this an act of God they survived? Or do you reject this happened? Do you think a scientfic explanation can explain this? What about the Jesus(the fourth person seen) in there too? What about the man who died outisde?

I'm just trying to understand how you decide what is a miracle and what is testable in a science lab.

 

[Saricharity]

It is nearly impossible to find even two public-arena advocates of the global flood story who agree on such issues as the number of animals aboard Noah’s ark, the kinds of animals aboard the ark, whether the they were infant or adult animals, where the water came from, where the water went to after the flood, how much water was needed, what and how much the animals ate, how the food was kept sufficiently fresh, how the animals got to the ark from distant continents, what the animals ate after the flood, and very many other issues. Some other issues are very seldom talked about at all, such as how the salt-water fish were able to survive in nearly fresh water. Nearly all of the public-arena advocates of the global flood story claim that Genesis 6-8 is a historical narrative that should be interpreted literally, but at the same time severely alter the story by adding to it a vast multitude of miracles that refute the very point of the narrative.

Students in high school have noted the following problems with the story:

. And many have accepted that GOD is GOD and he is beyond all and doesn't work within the boundaries of earth. He closed the door of the ark...don't you think He had all the rest covered as well?

• There are today about 2,000,000 genetically distinct populations of animals living on the earth. If we assume a date of about 2,349 B.C. for the flood (Bishop Ussher’s date), microevolution reduces the number of “kinds” of animals that must have been aboard the ark (to account for the about 2,000,000 genetically distinct populations of animals living on the earth today) to a few hundred thousand “kinds.”

• The several thousands of “kinds” of animals, including the dinosaurs, mammoths, giant ground sloths, etc., which have become extinct must also be considered. Did they all become extinct before the flood? If not, they were, according to the account in Genesis, aboard the ark.

the bible says all the kinds of land animals were present and accounted for.

• The ark, as literally described in Genesis, was much too small because the amount of water that it would be capable of displacing would weigh less than the animals on board, thus making it impossible for the ark to float.

impossible for God?

• The floor space on the ark was too small to hold any more than a tiny fraction of the cages that would be necessary to keep the animals in place (and from eating each other).

Is this impossible for the creator of the universe?

• The amount of food required for the animals would weigh at least nearly as much as the animals, and would require a vast amount of storage space.

• Many of the animals aboard the ark would have required specific FRESH fruits, vegetables, leaves, grass, bark, roots, etc., including fresh fruits that are produced only on MATURE plants. Therefore, these mature plants would necessarily have been kept and maintained aboard the ark, and subsequently planted in the ground after the flood.

again, you are putting God inside a box of human thinking. Nothing is impossible for God.

• Most of the genetically discrete populations of fish (including many VERY LARGE fish) would have to be taken aboard the ark and kept in tanks of water that met their very specific water chemistry needs in order to survive.

land animals not fish.

• The weight of the water on the earth would have crushed to death any of the land plants that did not drown in the water.

• After 150 days when the water abated, there would be no vegetation on the earth for the herbivores to eat, and no meat for the carnivores to eat, therefore a vast amount of food would necessarily have been kept aboard the ark to sustain the animals AFTER the flood.

God had it all in His control.

• The Animals could not all be released all at once or in the same place because many of them would eat each other.

God closed the mouths of lions to protect Daniel. God provided manna in the desert and had water come out of rocks. Again, is there anything impossible for God?

• The coming of the animals to Noah from all over the earth would have been a physical impossibility no less impossible than Santa Clause delivering presents to every boy and girl on the night before Christmas. The polar bears and penguins, not to mention all of the unique kinds of animals in Australia, would have posed more than a few special difficulties.

God raised the dead. Jesus was born of a virgin. NOTHING is impossible for God.

• After the flood, the animals could not be returned to their original habitat because all habitats would have been destroyed by the flood.

God created the world in six days....he created plant life in one day. I'm pretty sure this was not a problem for The Lord.

• Many of the necessary habitats would take 50 years or more to be reestablished and their reestablishment would have required the effort of many thousands of persons.

you are thinking like a human. GOD is GOD!!

• Until all the necessary habitats could be reestablished, the animals requiring these habitats would have to be kept and cared for by Noah and his family.

• There was not enough water to cover the entire earth, and even if there was, where did it go after the flood?

GOD!

• If the reported sightings of the Ark are factual, the Ark came to rest on a VERY high mountain on VERY rugged terrain from which the large majority of the animals would not have been able to descend.


A literal reading of Genesis 6-8 includes only four miracles:

1. God spoke to Noah (Gen 6:13-21; Gen. 7:1-4; Gen 8:17-18)

2. The LORD shut Noah in the ark (Gen. 7:16, KJV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, NAB, etc.)

3. “all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.” (Gen. 7:11, NRSV)

4. “God made a wind blow over the earth” (Gen. 8:1, NRSV)

Therefore, the narrative of Noah’s Ark cannot be a literal account of an historic event. Indescribably huge and very numerous miracles would have been necessary, and a literal interpretation of Genesis does not allow for these miracles because the point of the narrative is that through the natural, physical means of an ark built by Noah and his family, mankind and all the kinds of animals were saved from the floodwaters.

Faith, my friend. Faith of a child....faith of a mustard seed.
Faith. The same faith that speaks to your heart and tells you Jesus died on the cross for your sins and rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father. The same faith that speaks to your heart and tells you that Jesus is preparing a place in heaven for you and that His fathers HOUSE has many MANSIONS.
Faith.