you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[Uphill Battle]

 

[Theophorus]

 

[GenemZ]

So, in the NT Jesus picks 12 to teach, and for them to teach.

Deacons, priests and bishops are shown.

Jesus says his church will never fail

Paul tells us to obey our leaders.

Throw it all away and have the cult of the individual; each man his own Pope believing just like every other one that the Holy Spirit is guiding them all to diverse and different opinions.

Jesus established unity. Protestantism established disunity.

Your missing a major point. If and when the church enters into some area of corruption? No one is free to think for themselves. You get all sorts of practices taking shape that were never intended by the Word of God.

That sort of world will keep ignorant peasants and those motivated by religious superstition from going astray, which was what the world was like when your denomination was molded. BUT!

Acts 17:11 (New International Version)
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
​

The Bereans of today find error (and backwardness) in those denominations who claim to be the one true church. The Bereans were the most noble of the lot of believers in Christ. The Thessalonians never questioned in that way.

See? I see errors in your denominations teachings. They can be seen in the light of Scripture. Enough that I want nothing to do with it when you say things like...

Throw it all away and have the cult of the individual; each man his own Pope believing just like every other one that the Holy Spirit is guiding them all to diverse and different opinions.

That is simply the effect of Freedom of worship. Some will abuse their freedom. Others, will be blessed by it. You desire a benevolent, quasi, religious, communist state mentality for worship. Believe what we tell you, or you are wrong. .. Bereans need not apply. (Who were the more noble of character.) Independent thinkers, who will only submit after they have proven all things.. as we are commanded to do by Scripture!

Throw it all away and have the cult of the individual; each man his own Pope believing just like every other one that the Holy Spirit is guiding them all to diverse and different opinions.

Think of all the great Bible scholars we would not have today if your thinking had its way. On second thought, I do not think you are allowed to know who they are. That, to me. Is a pity.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[jckstraw72]

Because, Christ always knew he would have some who were Spirit filled and faithful, and by God's grace would find the Truth needed to escape the errors that crept into established churches. The gates of hell would not prevail, because Jesus knew that there would always be some who could accept correction and to learn from God's Spirit throughout history.

so then you accept that there is a true Church that can be found on earth?

 

[WarriorAngel]

the original point of the thread was to discuss the problem I have, and the rejection of liturgical style service. It degraded by the end of page 1 into a face slapping contest.

I'm not getting in to it again. I'm not looking forward to another 700 posts worth off hair pulling.

So? You only know something is true because an early father said so? They were never wrong? Never disagreed?

Put it this way....as long as the ecf's were in the Church and wrote regarding the Church then they did so thru the HS.
Anyone who erred was called on it and given an option to change it, or be removed.

This is 100% faith in God.

WHY?
Because God keeps His Church without corruption.

And if you think i quote the 'gates of hell shall not prevail' in error...then you are misreading soemthing somewhere.
The Pope would never claim otherwise, nor any other human on earth who believes Christ keeps His word.

That's why I study Scripture.
God's the only one who's 100% 'right'.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures,
nor the power of God.




That's not what it says though, in the Scriptures:
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

God is not only 100% correct...but He is 100% protective of His truth.

WHY?
Because He didnt abandon us on earth to fend for ourselves..did He?

So it is not thru ourselves that He teaches truth [since that would be alot of variety in truth and there is only ONE truth, not several truths] He left us a permanent institution to go and seek out for truth who would be a permanent guide on earth...BECAUSE HE loves us and would not abandon us to our own devices and errors.

Even Peter said we err when we try to read scriptures for ourselves.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am not done with you yet...
C'mere.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Put it this way....as long as the ecf's were in the Church and wrote regarding the Church then they did so thru the HS.
Anyone who erred was called on it and given an option to change it, or be removed.

This is 100% faith in God.

WHY?
Because God keeps His Church without corruption.

100% faith in God? I don't believe a human exist that HAS that quality. But that's not the point. (I do like the "do it our way, or be removed" thought. It paints a pretty picture, don't you think?)

And if you think i quote the 'gates of hell shall not prevail' in error...then you are misreading soemthing somewhere.

of course. If you aren't reading it like me, you are OBVIOUSLY wrong. that's very reassuring!

The Pope would never claim otherwise, nor any other human on earth who believes Christ keeps His word.

utter falsehood.

unless, of course, you would forward that I, and others like me, don't believe that Christ keeps his word. I DARE you to assert that.

God is not only 100% correct...but He is 100% protective of His truth.

which speaks nothing of if a bunch of guys in robes are able to do it.

WHY?
Because He didnt abandon us on earth to fend for ourselves..did He?

no. False dichotomy.

So it is not thru ourselves that He teaches truth [since that would be alot of variety in truth and there is only ONE truth, not several truths] He left us a permanent institution to go and seek out for truth who would be a permanent guide on earth...BECAUSE HE loves us and would not abandon us to our own devices and errors.

I see no instance where Christ set up an institution.

Even Peter said we err when we try to read scriptures for ourselves.

false. But we won't agree. so not much point bashing my head against the wall, or you yours.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Click on the picture to see animation.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Click on the picture to see animation.

I saw it, thanks.

 

[WarriorAngel]

100% faith in God? I don't believe a human exist that HAS that quality. But that's not the point. (I do like the "do it our way, or be removed" thought. It paints a pretty picture, don't you think?)
of course. If you aren't reading it like me, you are OBVIOUSLY wrong. that's very reassuring!
utter falsehood.

unless, of course, you would forward that I, and others like me, don't believe that Christ keeps his word. I DARE you to assert that.

which speaks nothing of if a bunch of guys in robes are able to do it.


no. False dichotomy.

I see no instance where Christ set up an institution.


false. But we won't agree. so not much point bashing my head against the wall, or you yours.

I will put it this way UB...
Genez and many others will try to teach Catholics and tell them the Pope didnt say this or that...

Its an old way of debating..
And I have been around the block [several years] debating with folks to know all the 'game plans...'
SO whether or not genez is going with what is out there for an argument and he doesnt know alot of bogus sites will say these things...
OR he didnt read something correctly.

I was born and raised Catholic...and went to a Catholic school...so i pretty much know when someone is making a claim that is false.


I should go double check which quote he was referring to. But i dont think it matters...this method is suspect...and like i said...been in this debating business for years to know all the ins and outs.
I dont know...you would be just as weary of the same false claims if you were Catholic.

Been there, done that...got a lousy tshirt.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I saw it, thanks.

Every once in a while i like to break the ice and let loose with some fun.

Life isnt always as serious as we make it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I will put it this way UB...
Genez and many others will try to teach Catholics and tell them the Pope didnt say this or that...

Its an old way of debating..
And I have been around the block [several years] debating with folks to know all the 'game plans...'
SO whether or not genez is going with what is out there for an argument and he doesnt know alot of bogus sites will say these things...
OR he didnt read something correctly.

I was born and raised Catholic...and went to a Catholic school...so i pretty much know when someone is making a claim that is false.


I should go double check which quote he was referring to. But i dont think it matters...this method is suspect...and like i said...been in this debating business for years to know all the ins and outs.
I dont know...you would be just as weary of the same false claims if you were Catholic.

Been there, done that...got a lousy tshirt.

I put it on par with apologetic to "why the Pope said this, but really meant something else." I'm out, got places to be.

 

[GenemZ]

so then you accept that there is a true Church that can be found on earth?

True, in the sense.. as a husband is true to his wife.

The true church consists of those believers who God can lead of the Spirit, into all truth that their given generation requires to overcome the world, as the world finds itself at that moment in history.

Acts 11:23 (New International Version)
"When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts."


​

Note... It did not say. To remain true to their church. When you are true to the Lord, you will find your right church in due time. Because one will be led of the Spirit when they are being true!


The true church today consists of Spirit filled - Spirit led - believers. Ones who are finding truth to overcome the world as it stands today, no matter where they may be found. Its not limited to one denomination.

Now, on the other hand. There is a true way that a church is to be established and run. Which must be according to God's Word. Not, the traditions of men.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[Montalban]

Your missing a major point. If and when the church enters into some area of corruption? No one is free to think for themselves. You get all sorts of practices taking shape that were never intended by the Word of God.

Who judges the church?
When did it err?
Jesus said that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against i.

That sort of world will keep ignorant peasants and those motivated by religious superstition from going astray, which was what the world was like when your denomination was molded.

Sure, as with Adam you can set yourself up as being so clever

The Bereans of today find error (and backwardness) in those denominations who claim to be the one true church. The Bereans were the most noble of the lot of believers in Christ. The Thessalonians never questioned in that way.

Who judged them to be in error?

See? I see errors in your denominations teachings.

Based on yourself as judge?

They can be seen in the light of Scripture.

Where does Scripture say it alone is enough?

Enough that I want nothing to do with it when you say things like...

That is simply the effect of Freedom of worship. Some will abuse their freedom. Others, will be blessed by it. You desire a benevolent, quasi, religious, communist state mentality for worship. Believe what we tell you, or you are wrong. .. Bereans need not apply. (Who were the more noble of character.) Independent thinkers, who will only submit after they have proven all things.. as we are commanded to do by Scripture!

Who said that?

Think of all the great Bible scholars we would not have today if your thinking had its way. On second thought, I do not think you are allowed to know who they are. That, to me. Is a pity.

Say what?

 

[Montalban]

You might be oversimplifying, bro...
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I agree, that I have.


And what did they do? They replaced him with another to continue the 12.

Protestantism means anyone chooses whomever they want to believe/follow, if any and you get 100,000s of different Protestant faiths.

Division everywhere.

Communion was what Jesus established, one faith, one people worshipping him.

 

[WarriorAngel]

genez, who you see as great, we see as mere men 1500- 2000 years after the Lord Rose to Heaven.

They are incapable of greatness if they had no one to teach them anything at all about Christ to begin with.

NOW...where did they receive the idea of Christ?
The correct and honest answer would be the CHURCH.

WHY? Because it was Christ instituted...for our sakes.
Men today were not...as authorities 1500-2000 years after the fact.
Its illogical.

Sure they may sound appealing, and maybe ears itch to hear it... but that is not proof of error free teaching. And how does one accept something that has the high possibility for error?

 

[GenemZ]

I was born and raised Catholic...and went to a Catholic school...so i pretty much know when someone is making a claim that is false.

False according to what you have been told to believe. But, not false.

I grew up practically with all Catholics. Not all of them took their Catholicism as seriously as you do. Some of my friends attended parochial school. I used to hear them say things as to how they thought some of things the church taught were laughable. These were my friends. They were not bitter towards the church. They were not even rejecting the church over all. They saw how certain things were not making sense. I just sat, listened, and took notice. Some of them became born again Christians later on, and read the Bible for themselves, and found churches that teaches the Bible, not church dogma.


Now? If you can show us all where it says in Scripture we are to pray to Mary to pray on our behalf? Maybe you will win some of us here over. I said SCRIPTURE.. Not repeating what your church tells you to believe. Can you?

What I can't stand is that when some Catholics get their backs to the wall on such questions, they resort to presenting church dogma rather than cite the Word of God to reveal how its to be so.


In Christ, GeneZ





.

 

[Montalban]

good morning!
yeah, there's something to that.
somethin' to do with task orientation becoming obsessive/compulsive and preoccupation with hierarchy, pomp, & circumstance distracting us from personally relating to Whom all that is supposed to be pointing us toward.

Why do you cheer for discarding hierarchy? What is wrong with that? Why even quote Paul, say, as an authority? To me it seems Protestantism is a self-annihilating theory. Citing an authority to argue that you don't need to follow authority.

Do you know that the hierarchy gave you the Bible? It didn't authorise itself. The Holy Spirit saw fit to work through them.

 

[Montalban]

Now? If you can show us all where in Scripture we are to pray to Mary, to pray on our behalf? Maybe you will win some of us here over. I said SCRIPTURE.. Not repeating what your church tells you. Can you?

Can you show me where in scripture scripture says its to be the only judge?

What I can't stand is that when Catholics get their backs to the wall on such questions, they resort to presenting church dogma rather than cite the Word of God to reveal how its to be so.

Show me where in scripture it says that church dogma (per se) is against God's word!

 

[Montalban]

we learned it from the best.

That's contradictory; you relied on authority to say you shouldn't rely on authority!