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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.
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sunlover1
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I wouldnt imagine it does.
There is no 'but'.
Just WORSHIP him,.. from the heart.
However you express your adoration.
The subject of worship, of all things,
worshipping the almighty God, creator
of your heart, lover of your soul,
maker of Heaven and earth,,,
should not include ANY form of
mockery or judgement.
Some posters have actually
called my worship of God 'FEEL good"
worship.
Pouring our hearts out, baring our souls
before the Lord, letting Him perform
heart surgery, our sacrifice of praise,
mocked because it doesnt fit some
pattern, not 'reverent' enough, should
be more 'solemn' more liturgical.
(cant even get a definition though on
what's reverent, what's solemn, what's
liturgy)
God made it EASY to enter His presence.
In the OT it was work
in the NT it's easy, come to me,
all who are heavily laden and I will
give you rest.
So... let's worship Him, rather than
tell me I'm doing it wrong.
At least I'm doing it!
Just got back from two hours of
worship team rehearsal, worshipping
God, my 'feel good' worship, lol
to find this nasty ungodly conversation.
(Not you specifically Jack, it's the
bs in general)
Funny, I was singing at rehearsal,
bawling my eyes out.
And come here to 'fighting' over who
worships better.
Here it is:
Worthy is the Lamb:
Thank you for the cross, Lord
Thank you for the price You paid
Bearing all my sin and shame
In love You came
And gave amazing grace
Thank you for this love, Lord
Thank you for the nail pierced hands
Washed me in Your cleansing flow
Now all I know
Your forgiveness and embrace
Worthy is the Lamb
Seated on the throne
Crown You now with many crowns
You reign victorious
High and lifted up
Jesus Son of God
The Darling of Heaven crucified
Worthy is the Lamb
Worthy is the Lamb
TAke the seven minutes to watch this one
and I bet it changes your perspective as
well. Completely!
It's not protestant, it's just 'christian".
(thats me singing btw
)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG5PkU92vpw&feature=related
K, it's not me singing, but I think
Mary's in this video.
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Montalban
Well-Known Member
Are you saying the Sermon on the Mount is not part of the new covenant?
You believe you're inspired by the Holy Spirit, right? You've discarded certain parts (see below). You either believer you're justified in doing this, or not.
If you're not inspired by the Holy Spirit in doing this, then what would inspire you to do this? Your call!
Yes you are. You said hair lengths can be ignored. And you re-write Paul's words on slavery as some kind of endorsement that's now irrelevant - you straw-manned Paul!
Disagree with that, see above.
I agree. So what's with all the protestatns here demanding a finding in the NT of things such as 'responses to gospel reading'?
So you're justified by the Spirit. Anything you do could be so justified. You might want to pick up James Hogg's The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner: Written by Himself here's where you can buy it.
Then you're back to discarding that part. Please make up your mind. Did the Holy Spirit inspire you to do this?
Okay
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christianmomof3
pursuing Christ
it is not up to me to decide upon the canon of the Bible. that has been done and I trust the brothers in Christ who did so.
does not seem like a very polite thing to do to me
so, do you feel that you are expressing Christ?
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holo
former Christian
I'm not saying you're not inspired.
I believe the bible is inspired, at large, as a matter of faith. I can't prove it, and I can't give you a good argument for which canon of the bible is the only correct one (or indeed, if there is only one "correct" one) because I haven't studied that well enough.
The reason I believe the bible, though, is because I've experienced it to be true. Not all the things that are written there, of course, but some. For instance, I believe the gospels are basically true because I've experienced that it's true that when I come to Christ, He does give me rest. And I figure that if Luke got that part right, he probably got the rest right too. Apart from the obvious errors like when the gospels disagree on smaller things like what the crucified thieves did with Jesus. But thankfully my faith doesn't depend on the bible being flawlessly dictated by God.
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Montalban
Well-Known Member
Jesus says that His Body and Blood are really food and drink…
John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
There is no denial that 'the Last Supper' was held at Passover. Passover was a commeration of the actual sacrifice of the lambs so that the spirit of the Lord passed-over the Jews in Egypt.
However it is not a mere commerative meal that Jesus and the Aposltes take part in; note the absence of anyone else but Jesus and the 12. Jesus says at the beginning of the new covenant. And like the Jews practiced of the Passover 'covenant' it is to be repeated.
Mat 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 14:24 "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them
Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
As the first Passover was a real sacrifice of the lamb, and as Jesus is the Lamb of God, this first convenant is to be a real sacrifice. However it is not a one-off event to be later commerated by simple meal gatherings.
It could be a 'metaphorical' expression, in this instance too, excepting in In John 6: 50ff He insists the actual literalness of it.
John 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
He states this immediately after the Jews call His words into question; they are asking Him for clarification. (John 6:52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can
this man give us his flesh to eat?")
He is differentiating it from that stated here...
Acts 2
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles.
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.
45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.
46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
47 praising God and enjoying the favour of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
St. Paul says that the Eucharist is NOT such a meal.
1 Cor 11:20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?
He is saying that when the believers come together normally to eat together it is NOT the same as the Lord's Supper. The Lord's Supper is different.
1 Cor11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
He is saying that partaking of this bread and cup in sin is to sin against the flesh and blood of the Lord BECAUSE it is the flesh and blood of the Lord as proclaimed by Jesus (John 6:55)
St. Ignatius of Antioch(1/2) repeats this, and it is continually repeated by the Church Fathers; St. Justin Martyr (3), Tertullian(4) and so on; all BEFORE the Bible was compiled.
Endnotes
(1) St. Ignatius Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 6:2)
(2) St. Ignatius Epistle to the Ephesians 20:2
(3) Justin Martyr, First Apology "CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST"
(4) Tertullian "On the Resurrection of the Flesh" CHAP. VIII
John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
There is no denial that 'the Last Supper' was held at Passover. Passover was a commeration of the actual sacrifice of the lambs so that the spirit of the Lord passed-over the Jews in Egypt.
However it is not a mere commerative meal that Jesus and the Aposltes take part in; note the absence of anyone else but Jesus and the 12. Jesus says at the beginning of the new covenant. And like the Jews practiced of the Passover 'covenant' it is to be repeated.
Mat 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 14:24 "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them
Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
As the first Passover was a real sacrifice of the lamb, and as Jesus is the Lamb of God, this first convenant is to be a real sacrifice. However it is not a one-off event to be later commerated by simple meal gatherings.
It could be a 'metaphorical' expression, in this instance too, excepting in In John 6: 50ff He insists the actual literalness of it.
John 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
He states this immediately after the Jews call His words into question; they are asking Him for clarification. (John 6:52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can
this man give us his flesh to eat?")
He is differentiating it from that stated here...
Acts 2
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles.
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.
45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.
46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
47 praising God and enjoying the favour of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
St. Paul says that the Eucharist is NOT such a meal.
1 Cor 11:20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?
He is saying that when the believers come together normally to eat together it is NOT the same as the Lord's Supper. The Lord's Supper is different.
1 Cor11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
He is saying that partaking of this bread and cup in sin is to sin against the flesh and blood of the Lord BECAUSE it is the flesh and blood of the Lord as proclaimed by Jesus (John 6:55)
St. Ignatius of Antioch(1/2) repeats this, and it is continually repeated by the Church Fathers; St. Justin Martyr (3), Tertullian(4) and so on; all BEFORE the Bible was compiled.
Endnotes
(1) St. Ignatius Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 6:2)
(2) St. Ignatius Epistle to the Ephesians 20:2
(3) Justin Martyr, First Apology "CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST"
(4) Tertullian "On the Resurrection of the Flesh" CHAP. VIII
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sunlover1
Beloved, Let us love one another
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Amen sister! no respector of persons.
(but there are different functions
naturally, and different gifts)
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee:
nor again the head to the feet,
I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable,
upon these we bestowd more abundant honour;
and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schisme in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversitiesf of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts:
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee:
nor again the head to the feet,
I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable,
upon these we bestowd more abundant honour;
and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schisme in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversitiesf of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts:
and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
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E.C.
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Never mind, I had misread your post and thought that you had said or meant something which you did not.Umm, no... Have I misinterpreted something when I say that nobody says everybody are equally inspired?
Although quite a number of Protestants say that because we all have the Holy Spirit within ourselves, it means that we have the right to interpret, interpret and interpret to our hearts content no matter what form of heresy we may fall into.
Having the Holy Spirit within us and listening to Him are two separate things.
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christianmomof3
pursuing Christ
from both the Lord Himself and from my brothers and sisters in Christ
does that make it proper for a Christian to use it?
Do you feel that you personally are expressing Christ in your posts in this thread?
Are you praying and asking the Lord about what you are posting and whether it is according to His will?
Do you feel that your church would agree with everything that you have posted here?
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holo
former Christian
Yes, that's my personal belief. I belive that since Jesus, in His own words, had been sent only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" and since He had a habit of going around explaining and teaching the law, and since the new covenant simply hadn't been established yet, and since the sermon on the mount, unlike the gospel, tells you how you must perform to be saved, that yes, it most definitely belongs in the old covenant. But pointing forward to the new.
I may be inspired, but I'm not infallible. I have the Spirit in me and with me, and I have common sense. I am also influenced by traditions and other people's opinions, though I try not to be.You believe you're inspired by the Holy Spirit, right? You've discarded certain parts (see below). You either believer you're justified in doing this, or not.
If you're not inspired by the Holy Spirit in doing this, then what would inspire you to do this? Your call!
But hey, I don't have to be infallible, that's the beauty of it!
I'm not discarding it any more than you are discarding the mosaic commandments about animal sacrifices. We just realize that some things were for a certain time, for certain people. And, just like with the claims that the earth is flat, we probably agree that not everything in the bible can, or should, be taken literally and personally by us today; some things simply reflect the time and culture it was written in.
Well, speaking for myself, it's just about the sad tendency we have to replace content with form, substance with tradition.
Well, I don't seek to justify individual things I do. That's not how I live or think. I don't operate by law, I don't measure myself according to some set of commandments. I just... live. This has to do with my fundamental understanding of the gospel and of life with God. Probably too big a subject to debate in this thread
But I can tell you this much; the title of that book put me off right away, because I completely disagree with the whole idea of "a justified sinner" - if I'm not mistaken, he means it in the "I'm both righteous and a sinner" kind of way, which I don't believe in at all. I believe it's either/or. But enough about that...
I believe the Spirit inspires me to think for myself and use my intellect and my common sense.
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holo
former Christian
I object to priests because the priests I see and meet are much more like the OT priests than... well, you and me, who are also priests, according to Paul. Even in the lutheran church here, there's still this sense that the priest is between God and the public, doing things on behalf of us and Him. I don't know how that works in orthodox churches though.
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GenemZ
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Its rather that Protestantism does not treat believers like they are all ignorant, illiterate peasants, having to be told what to believe. As the world was like when the system surrounding the pope was formed.
Protestantism puts more faith in the Holy Spirit leading each believer (if, he's Spirit filled) into all the truth that is required of him by God. The Pope, in contrast; is a system designed to get everyone conforming to his dictates of what to believe.... including even those who fail to be filled with the Spirit. Yes, it can create a unity of the people in one sense. But its not according to the filling of the Spirit. Its conforming to the dictates of a man made system.
I would rather have a system that allows for believers going in many different directions, that gives the freedom for those who are Spirit led to find truth the others will not. Than have a man driven system which demands conformity to a system, which produces a unity. But, that has in many ways gotten away from Biblical Christianity. A system with no freedom for finding corrections to errors without being labeled a heretic.
So be it.
In Christ, GeneZ
.
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