you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[holo]

Because the priest is consecrated. You don't get godly things from non-godly things.

The priest isn't any more consecrated than I am. He's no more godly than I am.

 

[Montalban]

Wow....the party's always on in this thread!

Almost 600 posts in just a few days! Gotta be close to a record.

It's lucky for me I'm home sick!

 

[christianmomof3]

a) I said it's basis is in the Bible - they are responding to what's read
b) you want to argue against 'strict legalism' but demand a strict reading in the Bible. Protestants can't make up their mind on this.
c) it's not contra bible. It makes sense that they carried on reading from Scriptures -even Protestants do this, don't they?

i do not understand what point you are making here.
I agree that we should read from the Bible.
But that is not the same as the responsive reading in your liturgy.
Reading from the Bible is not a script.
It is not - one person says this and everyone else says amen hallelujah 3 times and then another person bows to the left and the rest bow to the right and we do the hokey pokey and we turn ourselves around - that's what it's all about.
It is good to read from the Bible. That is what we should be doing. And it is good to pray the words of the Bible.
I just do not see where you get scripts and responsive reading from that and I have no idea what you are referring to in "b".

 

[Montalban]

The priest isn't any more consecrated than I am. He's no more godly than I am.

Funny that Jesus chose 12 out of the masses to teach them.

And of course, the Bible's got the "Epistle of Joh Bloggs" and anyone can add to it.

 

[Montalban]

i do not understand what point you are making here.

that the reading and responses is
a) not contra bible
and
b) has a basis in the Bible

If you want a 'literal' interpretation of the Bible to say this, then you're making the Bible the strict legalistic book that you claim Jesus over-turned. And I cited evidence from early church history that shows the Homily in practice.

 

[holo]

Of course we don't live by the OT laws. We live in the NT - I cited the NT.

The new testament doesn't mean the new covenant. There is a LOT of OC stuff in the NT. The new covenant started when Jesus died, not when He was born.

There's no "NT. 2.0" that I'm aware of, but then you discard what you're inspired to. Anything you discard is 'justifable' because you claim the Holy Spirit is guiding you.

???

What are you talking about?

Thus you've got the same infalible powers the pope has

I'm no more infallible than the pope, and he's no more infallible than I am. He just a man like you and me, elected by a group of church leaders to be their top leader. He has no special power or mandate from God, he's simply the head of an organization.

 

[Montalban]

If all people are equally inspired by the Holy Spirit, then why aren't we all able to have our own equally valid "Epistles" added to the Bible, or what about the Acts of Peter. Wasn't it inspired too?

 

[Montalban]

The new testament doesn't mean the new covenant.

I agree, hence I don't keep the OT dietry laws.

There is a LOT of OC stuff in the NT. The new covenant started when Jesus died, not when He was born.

So?

What are you talking about?

What are you? You already agree not everything in the OT is kept today

I'm no more infallible than the pope, and he's no more infallible than I am.

Yet you're so wise as to know which parts of the NT to discard

He just a man like you and me, elected by a group of church leaders to be their top leader. He has no special power or mandate from God, he's simply the head of an organization.

Yet you are able to throw away which bits of the NT you don't need anymore; hence you have an NT 2.0, as the NT is not sufficient, another irony from someone arguing sola scrptura

 

[holo]

Well I'll bow to your greater judgment on this as you're able to discern what to discard and what not to.

Well, don't you use your own ability to reason? What is it that makes it so incredibly hard to distinguish between the red thread throughout the bible, and all the cultural stuff? I don't get it.

Protestantism makes everyone a Pope!

I'm not sure what you mean by protestantism. But as far as I'm concerned, "pope" isn't actually a title God respects, much less operates with.

BTW, you yourself don't follow everything that's written in the bible. It would be impossible. One HAS to interpret it, discarding some things, emphasising others.

Paul is not saying he supports slavery.

Maybe not, but that's not my point. My point is that he gives instructions on it, and today this thing simply doesn't exist. Just like when you see instructions in the bible about staffs and sandals and meals - it simply can't be applied, because things aren't like that anymore. And that's not a problem! It's just a consequence. Even though chosen and illuminated, Paul was still a man, and a man of his day and age and culture. That obviously shines through, just like the erroneous belief that the earth is flat shines through in the OT.

As to 'hair lengths' it's only irrelevant because you discard it as being irrelevant.

If I had some reason to think it was relevant to me, today, I would change my mind. But I have absolutely no reason to believe that God should throw in some seemingly random rule about hair smack in the middle of a gospel about grace, which even emphasises the heart over appearance! Especially when it's so logical and natural and obivous that Paul is simply talking about - and in - his own culture, which had different norms and problems than we do today.

It's not mysterious, it's just common sense.

 

[holo]

Funny that Jesus chose 12 out of the masses to teach them.

And of course, the Bible's got the "Epistle of Joh Bloggs" and anyone can add to it.

What's your point?

 

[christianmomof3]

If all people are equally inspired by the Holy Spirit, then why aren't we all able to have our own equally valid "Epistles" added to the Bible, or what about the Acts of Peter. Wasn't it inspired too?

The Bible is divinely inspired and what is in there is what the Lord wanted and wants in there.
It should not be added to.
Just because all redeemed and regenerated believers - not all people, have the Holy Spirit within us, does not mean that we all are in the same place in our spiritual walk.
Some are new believers and others are more mature.
The book of Acts was written by Luke.
I don't know what this "Acts of Peter" is.
Do you believe that you should write your own epistles or are you just being facetious?
Are you expressing Christ here or are you expressing yourself?

 

[holo]

If all people are equally inspired by the Holy Spirit, then why aren't we all able to have our own equally valid "Epistles" added to the Bible, or what about the Acts of Peter. Wasn't it inspired too?

Nobody believes all people are equally inspired by the Spirit.

 

[Montalban]

What's your point?

Some are chosen for sacred duties. The Bible has priests, deacons and bishops. All you have to do is imagine that Jesus calling 12 aside had no meaning.

Deacons
1 Timothy 3:10
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1 Timothy 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Priests
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
Presbytery
4244 presbuterion pres-boo-ter'-ee-on neuter of a presumed derivative of 4245; the order of elders, i.e. (specially), Israelite Sanhedrin or Christian "presbytery":--(estate of) elder(-s), presbytery.
Strongs Lexicon
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=presbytery

Bishops
1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
1 Peter 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

"In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the Sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church."
Ignatius -
"The Epistle to the Trallians", Chapter III

 

[E.C.]

It has its basis in the Bible

Acts 20: 11 Then going up and breaking bread and tasting and having talked a long time to them, until daylight, so he departed.

Luke 24:14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 And it came to pass that while they talked and reasoned with themselves, Jesus himself also, drawing near, went with them

Don't forget 1 Timothy 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle".

Something that instructed how to pray, i.e. the Divine Liturgy, would certainly have a lot of words, wouldn't it?

But this verse contradicts the mainstream thought. Out with it as well.

He didn't mean i literally! Of course He didn't! What would be the point of that? He also said that whoever came to Him to drink should never thirst again. Not literally, of course.

Actually, there have been quite a number of monastics who celebrated the Divine Liturgy daily and consumed nothing but the Eucharist.

where on earth do you see anything about responsive reading or scripts in those verses?

1 Timothy 2:15 would certainly include anything like "how to worship in a community 101".

 

[E.C.]

Nobody believes all people are equally inspired by the Spirit.

That's just your interpretation!





You see the problem there?

 

[holo]

So?

It's important to know that, because if not, people tend to believe that stuff like the sermon on the mount and other expositions on the law is part of the gospel, that it belongs in the new covenant.

What are you? You already agree not everything in the OT is kept today

Talking about what you said; "Anything you discard is 'justifable' because you claim the Holy Spirit is guiding you."

i wonder what you mean by that.

Yet you're so wise as to know which parts of the NT to discard

I'm not discarding any part of the NT. And it's not so much about wisdom as it is about common sense.

Yet you are able to throw away which bits of the NT you don't need anymore; hence you have an NT 2.0, as the NT is not sufficient, another irony from someone arguing sola scrptura

Not throwing out a single thing. The NT is sufficient, but it's never been meant to be sufficient as some sort of rule book or guide to life in general. In fact, the NT stresses that that's a function and responsibility of the Spirit. The bible does NOT elevate itself to the role and position most christians have put it in. God has never meant the bible to be some sort of eternal rulebook on hair lengths.

The bible is better seen as a testament, a history book, a testimony. If God had intended to give us a rule book, He would've done so, and I believe He'd made it a whole lot clearer than the bible. The problem isn't that the bible is unclear, but that people are tying to use it for something it's not.

And BTW I've never argued "sola scriptura". Careful with those assumptions.

 

[Montalban]

The Bible is divinely inspired and what is in there is what the Lord wanted and wants in there.

So it fell out of heaven complete?

It is a part of Orthodox (and Catholic) belief that not all that was transmitted was written down. The last of the Gospels notes this....
John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Paul gives a quotation from Jesus that was handed down orally to him: "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). This saying is not recorded in the Gospels and must have been passed on to Paul. And therefore Paul himself uses tradition as a guide for teaching. This does not make Paul a 'copyist'. Nor does it suggest a super-copy/source with which all the authors relied upon.

Paul also quotes from other non-Biblical sources, such as this early hymn...
Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."


Where does it say "Only use the Bible"?

It should not be added to.
Just because all redeemed and regenerated believers - not all people, have the Holy Spirit within us, does not mean that we all are in the same place in our spiritual walk.

So who decides which to listen to?

Some are new believers and others are more mature.
The book of Acts was written by Luke.
I don't know what this "Acts of Peter" is.

Tell me which of these are inspired, and which aren't
30-60 Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
100-200 Odes of Solomon
101-220 Book of Elchasai
105-115 Ignatius of Antioch
110-140 Polycarp to the Philippians
110-140 Papias
110-160 Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel
110-160 Traditions of Matthias
111-112 Pliny the Younger
115 Suetonius
115 Tacitus
120-130 Quadratus of Athens
120-130 Apology of Aristides
120-140 Basilides
120-140 Naassene Fragment
120-160 Valentinus
120-180 Apocryphon of John
120-180 Gospel of Mary
120-180 Dialogue of the Savior
120-180 Gospel of the Savior
120-180 2nd Apocalypse of James
120-180 Trimorphic Protennoia
130-140 Marcion
130-150 Aristo of Pella
130-160 Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160 Ophite Diagrams
130-160 2 Clement
130-170 Gospel of Judas
130-200 Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150 Epistula Apostolorum
140-160 Ptolemy
140-160 Isidore
140-170 Fronto
140-170 Infancy Gospel of James
140-170 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
150-160 Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160 Justin Martyr
150-180 Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180 Heracleon
150-200 Ascension of Isaiah
150-200 Acts of Peter
150-200 Acts of John
150-200 Acts of Paul
150-200 Acts of Andrew
150-225 Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225 Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250 Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300 Authoritative Teaching
150-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300 Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300 Melchizedek
150-400 Acts of Pilate
150-400 Anti-Marcionite Prologues
160-170 Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180 Claudius Apollinaris
160-180 Apelles
160-180 Julius Cassianus
160-250 Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180 Acts of Carpus
165-175 Melito of Sardis
165-175 Hegesippus
165-175 Dionysius of Corinth
165-175 Lucian of Samosata
167 Marcus Aurelius
170-175 Diatessaron
170-200 Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200 Muratorian Canon
170-200 Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220 Letter of Peter to Philip
175-180 Athenagoras of Athens
175-185 Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185 Rhodon
175-185 Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190 Galen
178 Celsus
178 Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180 Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185 Theophilus of Antioch
180-185 Acts of Apollonius
180-220 Bardesanes
180-220 Kerygmata Petrou
180-230 Hippolytus of Rome
180-250 1st Apocalypse of James
180-250 Gospel of Philip
182-202 Clement of Alexandria
185-195 Maximus of Jerusalem
185-195 Polycrates of Ephesus
188-217 Talmud
189-199 Victor I
190-210 Pantaenus
193 Anonymous Anti-Montanist
193-216 Inscription of Abercius
197-220 Tertullian
200-210 Serapion of Antioch
200-210 Apollonius
200-220 Caius
200-220 Philostratus
200-225 Acts of Thomas
200-250 Didascalia
200-250 Books of Jeu
200-300 Pistis Sophia
200-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Peter
203 Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas
203-250 Origen

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

Do you believe that you should write your own epistles or are you just being facetious?

It's called Reductio ad absurdum

Are you expressing Christ here or are you expressing yourself?

I'm not expressing myself, I'm not a Protestant!

 

[E.C.]

Some are chosen for sacred duties. The Bible has priests, deacons and bishops. All you have to do is imagine that Jesus calling 12 aside had no meaning.

Deacons
1 Timothy 3:10
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1 Timothy 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Priests
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
Presbytery
4244 presbuterion pres-boo-ter'-ee-on neuter of a presumed derivative of 4245; the order of elders, i.e. (specially), Israelite Sanhedrin or Christian "presbytery":--(estate of) elder(-s), presbytery.
Strongs Lexicon
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=presbytery

Bishops
1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
1 Peter 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

"In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the Sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church."
Ignatius -
"The Epistle to the Trallians", Chapter III

Anyone who thinks that bishops were a "modern" invention some centuries after the Apostles, I say this: throw out both Timothys, Philemon and Titus. Sts. Timothy, Philemon and Titus were all three bishops.
They were asking St. Paul for help in how to deal with the various problems and/or heresies plaguing their area.

 

[Montalban]

Nobody believes all people are equally inspired by the Spirit.

How do you know I'm not inspired, at all, (or not)? I can claim the Holy Spirit moves me and write an Epistle.

What makes you believe, for instance, that Luke was inspired? Is that Gospel self-proving?

 

[holo]

Some are chosen for sacred duties.

I'm not arguing that, I just fail to see what you're getting at. Could you rephrase it?