you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[E.C.]

(interesting sidenote: Orthodoxy is the only Church that isnt losing male membership)

I believe that it is one of the few that actually has significant gains in male membership.

Yep, and that's how Congress gets the power to go to war on pretty thin grounds and against most people's opinion... personally I don't put any more trust in a church leader than in a politician.

I don't trust the politicians; too much interest group meddling and politics involved (ya I know, whoda thunk it?)

But our bishops I do trust because their job is to make sure that the Church does not fall into heresy. It is also critical that we have a leadership whose objective is not to conform to whatever the norm is, but to hold fast.

we do believe we are all priests, that is why we all turn in worship to God, and we all offer and receive the Eucharist. however, in the Protestant churches I have been in, all attention is turned towards the pastor, making him in effect the lone priest, although they'll never call him priest.

De Nile is not just a river in Egypt!


Couldn't resist.

Well, your liturgy does look a lot like the Jewish services in that it is a script. I had enough of that in the Jewish religion. I never did see any reality of the Lord in it.

Of course. That is because Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.
St. James the Apostle wrote the first Divine Liturgy and was martyred for it (how dare he change the Jewish worship.)

I listened to one of the songs.
It was not in English so I have no idea what theology it contained. It sounded very pretty though.

No matter what the language, be it English, Greek or Russian; I can still tell what hymn is sung.

I love it.

I do know that Daniel prayed facing Jerusalem, but now we have the Lord within us. I don't think the Lord cares what direction we face when we pray to Him and worship Him.

I believe we face East because that is the direction from which Christ will come again.
Never face West.

 

[Montalban]

We have a lutheran state church here in Norway, and they are called priests there. In pretty much every other church they're called pastors. Don't know exactly why that is.

But I don't think it's right anyway. For example, the eucharist is neither a meal nor something people share. It's a tiny cracker-like thingy that the priest distributes along with a microscopic sip of wine. Personally I think I'm closer to the idea of eucharist when I buy my friends a beer and a burger.

Paul says if you're hungry stay at home. The Eucharist is not just a communal meal.

1 Corinthians 11:34
If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions.

 

[holo]

As I noted earlier you mistake two things;
a) missionary work
and
b) the Divine Liturgy

You seem to think that flexibility by Paul in a) means he was in b)

Paul had a "divine liturgy"?

 

[jckstraw72]

really? please show me where in the Bible the Lord tells people that he wants them to worship Him through responsive reading and reading through a script. where is the word liturgy in the Bible? Where does the Lord say He desires liturgy?

God told the Jews how to worship on Mt. Sinai -- they had no say in the matter. Hebrews 8 tells us that their liturgical worship is a copy of Heavenly worship, which is also seen in Isaiah 6 and Revelation

 

[jckstraw72]

Paul had a "divine liturgy"?

but of course! how else would a zealous Jew worship? Our Lord Himself worshiped liturgically

 

[Montalban]

Well, I'm not so sure about the whole concept of "church", as in a particular building, anyway.

It's a gathering. It's a communal celebration. You mix this up with the missionary work of Paul

 

[Thekla]

I believe we face East because that is the direction from which Christ will come again.
Never face West.

the verse on the coming of Christ from the east is in Matthew -- but I'm not a chapter verse sort ...

 

[christianmomof3]

God told the Jews how to worship on Mt. Sinai -- they had no say in the matter. Hebrews 8 tells us that their liturgical worship is a copy of Heavenly worship, which is also seen in Isaiah 6 and Revelation

I recall the law given and the instructions for the tabernacle. I do not recall anything in the Bible about responsive reading and scripts.

 

[Montalban]

Paul had a "divine liturgy"?

There seems to be a time-lag. I've already cited one of his Epistles to Corinthians where he tells people about communal meals -v- the Lord's Supper

 

[holo]

i really dont see any leniency in Paul's epistles at all. He constantly exhorts his congregations to keep the doctrines pure, keep order in worship, keep the traditions, etc ... he really leaves no wiggle room at all

Well, then it's all the more alarming that people are placing so much emphasis on how the church building is constructed, how to "consecrate" this or that, where to face when you pray and so forth, because as far as anyone can know, Paul never gave any instructions on those things.

He did have opinions on a lot of cultural things, though, like hair lenghts and whatnot. In our times there are other things that would be relevant. Had Paul lived now, he may very well have written a few lines about cell phones in church!

Paul's focus and teaching wasn't to establish some strict FORM of doing things. He was all about content - about Christ. Had he really meant that all these outer and practical things were so important, he surely wouldn't have taken so lightly on meat and sabbaths and wine etc.

 

[jckstraw72]

I do not recall anything in the Bible about responsive reading and scripts.

God told them how to conduct all the sacrifices and when to do them and all that. and the Psalms are the liturgical worship book of the Jewish community.

 

[holo]

beer and a burger = Body and Blood of Christ?!

Yes, of course. If some priest can supposedly turn a piece of bread and a sip of lemonade into the body and blood of Jesus by saying some magic words, then a beer and a burger (which in many places is the modern equivalent of bread and wine anyway) can also be. When Jesus had eucharist, it was an entire meal. It was fellowship. It wasn't just some magical ceremony and ritual. Of course God doesn't demand that you must use one particular type of bread or a certain brand of wine and stuff like that!

 

[Montalban]

Well, then it's all the more alarming that people are placing so much emphasis on how the church building is constructed, how to "consecrate" this or that, where to face when you pray and so forth, because as far as anyone can know, Paul never gave any instructions on those things.

He did have opinions on a lot of cultural things, though, like hair lenghts and whatnot. In our times there are other things that would be relevant. Had Paul lived now, he may very well have written a few lines about cell phones in church!

Paul's focus and teaching wasn't to establish some strict FORM of doing things. He was all about content - about Christ. Had he really meant that all these outer and practical things were so important, he surely wouldn't have taken so lightly on meat and sabbaths and wine etc.

So Paul's not relevant now?

 

[christianmomof3]

God told the Jews how to worship on Mt. Sinai -- they had no say in the matter. Hebrews 8 tells us that their liturgical worship is a copy of Heavenly worship, which is also seen in Isaiah 6 and Revelation

Hebrews 8
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 

[sunlover1]

How is doing what you do any different from what others do in other religions?

umm we simply do what we've been given. we dont try to come up with new, fancy styles of worship and we don't try to come up with our own snazzy prayers all the time.

Nothing wrong with praying from your heart
as the Lord leads.
I bet He's even a bit touched.

we're content to do the same as has always been done.
WE aren't the ones who are trying to make something pleasing to God.

WHY?

Its no secret what pleases Him, so we do it -- we dont try to invent new things and hope He likes them

Sing unto the Lord a NEW song,
Sing unto the Lord all the earth.
He makes it clear that He likes it,
by coming close enough to smell
the sweet fragrance.

When you can find St Paul saying something along the lines of "Okay, Corinthians, you know the truth, now go and worship in your own individual ways" there's be some kind of point being made!

Actually, they did leave room for the Spirit to
operate as He chose, 'through' them, didnt they?

we worship the true God, in the manner ordained by God to Moses,

WEll thank goodness you're not like that
protestant over there
You worship the way the Jews did,
You have sacraments
You sing more reverent songs.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,
God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are,
extortioners, unjust, adulterers,
or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week,
I give tithes of all that
I possess. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=44803640#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=44803640#_ftnref1



He wants your heart, that's all.
Off key, too loud, too soft,
too fast, too slow, matters not.
It's the heart of the Worship.

 

[Montalban]

Yes, of course. If some priest can supposedly turn a piece of bread and a sip of lemonade into the body and blood of Jesus by saying some magic words, then a beer and a burger (which in many places is the modern equivalent of bread and wine anyway) can also be. When Jesus had eucharist, it was an entire meal. It was fellowship. It wasn't just some magical ceremony and ritual. Of course God doesn't demand that you must use one particular type of bread or a certain brand of wine and stuff like that!

Jesus didn't use magic.

He said that the bread and blood are his real body and blood.

John 6:55
For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

He's questioned on this and he confirms it, showing he's not just talking metaphorically

 

[holo]

but of course! how else would a zealous Jew worship? Our Lord Himself worshiped liturgically

Well, this is the same Paul who considered all his former ways in judaism to be DUNG compared to knowing Christ... so he wasn't actually a zealous jew anymore. He was so radical as to say that in Christ there IS neither jew nor greek! Not even man or woman! So why should there be liturgy?

 

[christianmomof3]

God told them how to conduct all the sacrifices and when to do them and all that. and the Psalms are the liturgical worship book of the Jewish community.

i have never heard the term liturgical worship in the Jewish community nor have i ever heard that psalms are the liturgical worship book of the Jewish community - and I was a part of the Jewish community for the first 27 years of my life and still interact with it some.

 

[jckstraw72]

Yes, of course. If some priest can supposedly turn a piece of bread and a sip of lemonade into the body and blood of Jesus by saying some magic words

a priest doesnt change anything, and teh Holy Spirit is CERTAINLY not magic.

Sing unto the Lord a NEW song,
Sing unto the Lord all the earth.
He makes it clear that He likes it,
by coming close enough to smell
the sweet fragrance.

in Revelation we see that the new song is oen of Christ crucified. it doesnt literally mean every time we sing it must be a new song. the Psalms are very prophetical in speaking about Christ.

He wants your heart, that's all.
Off key, too loud, too soft,
too fast, too slow, matters not.
It's the heart of the Worship.

of course He wants our heart in it, but that doesnt mean do away with our God-given worship.

a new covenant doesnt mean a new form of worship -- read where it says that Jewish worship is a shadow of Heavenly things. can you get better than the Heavenly reality which illumines the Jewish shadow with the light of Christ>?!

 

[Montalban]

I recall the law given and the instructions for the tabernacle. I do not recall anything in the Bible about responsive reading and scripts.

It has its basis in the Bible

Acts 20: 11 Then going up and breaking bread and tasting and having talked a long time to them, until daylight, so he departed.

Luke 24:14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 And it came to pass that while they talked and reasoned with themselves, Jesus himself also, drawing near, went with them