you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it. (2)

[LogosRhema]

The Bible's not the foundation. The church is. The Church 'built' the Bible.

The Bible didn't authorise itself.

So you are claiming the Church wrote the Bible... funny I could have sworn God had. The Bible is the foundation of the Church... Beliefs are built upon and from the Bible, you aren't making much sense.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Christ is the foundation. I'm sure we all can easily agree with this.

John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If meaning the word became flesh, in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was and still is God's word. We can see that through the life He lived by preaching what? God's word and He acted out God's words...

Romans 10:16-18

16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[a] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."[b]

So if Christ was the Word and He preached God's Word, we can easily say what Christ had to say and did is infallible correct? So if all of the scriptures are all in agreement, edification, and proclamations of God's Word... It is automatically proclaims itself...

God's Word or Jesus is infallible, the Bible is about His message, even in the Old Testament it was all in the ultimate plan of salvation and then the relationship that takes place between God and man because of Jesus' sacrifice.

That's what it's all about. Any other scripture that does not edify Jesus' Message... Honestly whats the point? I've seen the book of Enoch, read some of its pages... I felt the Spirit say to me this: "This is all great information, but how does this further My Message?" After hearing this and I was EXCITED about finding the book to the point I was going to buy it... but after hearing that, with out skipping a heart beat I put it down.

Yea there are other books out there and they are useful, but if they are not proclaiming the Message that we should be proclaiming, tell me whats the point? Tell me how can we base our faith on any other message besides God's plan of salvation, TRUTH, LOVE, GRACE...

Again to make my point clear, our salvation is in the foundation of God's Word... The church is built upon this foundation, God's Word... God's Word does not come second, but comes first in our lives and as the Church. Otherwise we'd be talking out of our heads... we'd have no idea what to do... God's word is written plainly in the Bible.. in the OT and NT... All in agreement in the ultimate plan of salvation.

I don't know where you coming from making the claims you are. Maybe you lack faith? Maybe you'd rather listen to Church leaders over what the Bible truly has to say? Maybe you don't want solid truths to make accountability that much more evident in your life? Maybe I don't understand?

Regardless my faith is in God's Word... In no other book do I go to for help... The Bible, its the foundation and starter of our faith... from there, its a beautiful relationship with God... And you could live a lifetime of faith and the Bible will still always have newer and new levels of revelation... it's never ending. It's God's Word. It's Jesus. It's the Bible.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Which canon? Of the 27 NT? Absolutely. The Protestant Masoretic-derived canon? No. The Septuagint OT canon? Absolutely.

Why not?

 

[Montalban]

So you are claiming the Church wrote the Bible... funny I could have sworn God had.

No. Moslems believe that their god wrote their holy book. Christians believe God inspired theirs. You've got the wrong religion!

The Bible is the foundation of the Church... Beliefs are built upon and from the Bible, you aren't making much sense.

Actually you're not, based on continuing to make the same mistake I pointed out earlier, and ignoring that the Bible didn't exist until 300 years after the church had begun.

1 Corinthians 3:11[/URL][/B]
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Christ is the foundation. I'm sure we all can easily agree with this.

Well you said that the Bible was.

John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If meaning the word became flesh, in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was and still is God's word. We can see that through the life He lived by preaching what? God's word and He acted out God's words.

But that's just it. God became flesh, not words in a book. If Jesus had wanted us to follow a book then we'd just have a "Gospel of the Sayings of Christ", not an account of what he actually did.

Romans 10:16-18

16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

None of which says either
a) only follow the Bible
or
b) all of what God said is in the Bible

So if Christ was the Word and He preached God's Word, we can easily say what Christ had to say and did is infallible correct? So if all of the scriptures are all in agreement, edification, and proclamations of God's Word... It is automatically proclaims itself...

But again, you miss that the word was flesh, not ink on paper.

God's Word or Jesus is infallible, the Bible is about His message, even in the Old Testament it was all in the ultimate plan of salvation and then the relationship that takes place between God and man because of Jesus' sacrifice.

Indeed. Now show me that only what is written down is to be followed.

That's what it's all about. Any other scripture that does not edify Jesus' Message... Honestly whats the point?

I agree. But what was his message? You only know this because the church got together judged the many books written at the time, judged them by tradition and determined what to put in the Bible.

Again to make my point clear, our salvation is in the foundation of God's Word... The church is built upon this foundation, God's Word... God's Word does not come second, but comes first in our lives and as the Church. Otherwise we'd be talking out of our heads... we'd have no idea what to do... God's word is written plainly in the Bible.. in the OT and NT... All in agreement in the ultimate plan of salvation.

And the word was flesh. You're almost at the point of understanding as Orthodox do. We follow Jesus, not just what's written in a book.

We try to live the life his Apostles lived. Protestants just sit and read a book and hope for inspiration - and anything that seems to be inspired is because you trust that the Holy Spirit has brought you to where ever it is you're at...

I don't know where you coming from making the claims you are. Maybe you lack faith? Maybe you'd rather listen to Church leaders over what the Bible truly has to say? Maybe you don't want solid truths to make accountability that much more evident in your life? Maybe I don't understand?

It's the last one!


So, you've still yet to show me where does the Bible say only follow the Bible!

 

[Montalban]

So you are claiming the Church wrote the Bible... funny I could have sworn God had.

No. Moslems believe that their god wrote their holy book. Christians believe God inspired theirs. You've got the wrong religion!

The Bible is the foundation of the Church... Beliefs are built upon and from the Bible, you aren't making much sense.

Actually you're not, based on continuing to make the same mistake I pointed out earlier, and ignoring that the Bible didn't exist until 300 years after the church had begun.

1 Corinthians 3:11[/URL][/B]
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Christ is the foundation. I'm sure we all can easily agree with this.

Well you said that the Bible was.

John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If meaning the word became flesh, in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was and still is God's word. We can see that through the life He lived by preaching what? God's word and He acted out God's words.

But that's just it. God became flesh, not words in a book. If Jesus had wanted us to follow a book then we'd just have a "Gospel of the Sayings of Christ", not an account of what he actually did.

Romans 10:16-18

16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

None of which says either
a) only follow the Bible
or
b) all of what God said is in the Bible

So if Christ was the Word and He preached God's Word, we can easily say what Christ had to say and did is infallible correct? So if all of the scriptures are all in agreement, edification, and proclamations of God's Word... It is automatically proclaims itself...

But again, you miss that the word was flesh, not ink on paper.

God's Word or Jesus is infallible, the Bible is about His message, even in the Old Testament it was all in the ultimate plan of salvation and then the relationship that takes place between God and man because of Jesus' sacrifice.

Indeed. Now show me that only what is written down is to be followed.

That's what it's all about. Any other scripture that does not edify Jesus' Message... Honestly whats the point?

I agree. But what was his message? You only know this because the church got together judged the many books written at the time, judged them by tradition and determined what to put in the Bible.

Again to make my point clear, our salvation is in the foundation of God's Word... The church is built upon this foundation, God's Word... God's Word does not come second, but comes first in our lives and as the Church. Otherwise we'd be talking out of our heads... we'd have no idea what to do... God's word is written plainly in the Bible.. in the OT and NT... All in agreement in the ultimate plan of salvation.

And the word was flesh. You're almost at the point of understanding as Orthodox do. We follow Jesus, not just what's written in a book.

We try to live the life his Apostles lived. Protestants just sit and read a book and hope for inspiration - and anything that seems to be inspired is because you trust that the Holy Spirit has brought you to where ever it is you're at...

I don't know where you coming from making the claims you are. Maybe you lack faith? Maybe you'd rather listen to Church leaders over what the Bible truly has to say? Maybe you don't want solid truths to make accountability that much more evident in your life? Maybe I don't understand?

It's the last one!


So, you've still yet to show me where does the Bible say only follow the Bible!

 

[Montalban]

um, the scriptures weren't written in 300. just thought I'd point that out.

I didn't say they were written in 300. I said that they were compiled. That is, gathered together. It's like one can get an anthology of Shakespeare's works that was compiled only a few years ago, even though the Bard died in the 1600s. They're just different concepts you've mixed up.

Anyway, just by the year 260 there were hundreds of books circulating each having something to do with Christianity.

See a partial list at www.earlychristianwritings.com

Some, such as the Acts of Peter claimed to be written by Peter/his followers.

Why do we discard this?

Because the church used two tests.

One was they tested what is in that book against what the church taught; that is, by tradition.

The other is that the church was a vibrant community of letter writing and if a book no one had heard of before popped up, they'd write to each other and discuss this.

It's just crazy that Protestants think that the Bible was self-authenticating. Many books claim to have been written by such-and-such.

The Bible didn't authorise itself. It didn't fall out of heaven fully compiled. It didn't exist in a vacuum (outside of reality; the church)

 

[Montalban]

I believe that there are three things that should be in agreement - First - The Bible - as you said, it is the ruler by which all other writings and sayings should be measured.
One problem though is - which Bible would you use?
The Protestants - or rather non- Orthodox and non-Catholics - use the 66 book Bible and the Orthodox and Catholics use Bibles that have more books than that. Therefore, some things that they say are supported by scripture are not supported by the scripture in the 66 book canon, but in books which the rest of us do not consider to be divinely inspired.
The other two things that should be in agreement are the church and our own personal sense from God.
We should not follow only one of those by itself. There are lots of nuts out there who think God is telling them to do stuff that is not in the Bible.

That shows you exactly WHY one can't use the Bible as a rule.

Even Luther didn't do this. He didn't just take the Bible as it was in his day and translate it into German. He discarded some books because he judged them not to be authentic!

So even the man who championed sola scriptura used a measure of the Bible, not from the Bible!

 

[LogosRhema]

"And the word was flesh. You're almost at the point of understanding as Orthodox do. We follow Jesus, not just what's written in a book.

We try to live the life his Apostles lived. Protestants just sit and read a book and hope for inspiration - and anything that seems to be inspired is because you trust that the Holy Spirit has brought you to where ever it is you're at..."

Actually I'm already there. I see the Bible as the foundation of my belief system and have been trying to live my life as Christ did, which my foundation on what to do can be found in the Bible, from there the Holy Spirit takes over. I do firmly believe in the Holy Spirit's inspiration, guidance, mentor, and power.

"But that's just it. God became flesh, not words in a book. If Jesus had wanted us to follow a book then we'd just have a "Gospel of the Sayings of Christ", not an account of what he actually did."

But those sayings and accounts of how He lived gives us clues on what to do as His followers. How do you follow someone and not know what they did and how they did it?! Also, scripture records what He said and did. If you give an accurate account of what you say, is that not still your word? How much more than is that for Christ and what He said and did? God's Word is more than just Word, it's action. Not just feel good sayings!

"I agree. But what was his message? You only know this because the church got together judged the many books written at the time, judged them by tradition and determined what to put in the Bible."

God ordains all leadership, so I do trust in His ordination of the books of the Bible. His message was Love, simple as that! Love is what hangs on the laws of the prophets... love is everything!!!

I think we are at about the same point. I'd prefer to hear further what you have to say. We are at opposite ends of the same spectrum and communication will re-establish a foreground.

 

[LogosRhema]

"And the word was flesh. You're almost at the point of understanding as Orthodox do. We follow Jesus, not just what's written in a book.

We try to live the life his Apostles lived. Protestants just sit and read a book and hope for inspiration - and anything that seems to be inspired is because you trust that the Holy Spirit has brought you to where ever it is you're at..."

Actually I'm already there. I see the Bible as the foundation of my belief system and have been trying to live my life as Christ did, which my foundation on what to do can be found in the Bible, from there the Holy Spirit takes over. I do firmly believe in the Holy Spirit's inspiration, guidance, mentor, and power.

"But that's just it. God became flesh, not words in a book. If Jesus had wanted us to follow a book then we'd just have a "Gospel of the Sayings of Christ", not an account of what he actually did."

But those sayings and accounts of how He lived gives us clues on what to do as His followers. How do you follow someone and not know what they did and how they did it?! Also, scripture records what He said and did. If you give an accurate account of what you say, is that not still your word? How much more than is that for Christ and what He said and did? God's Word is more than just Word, it's action. Not just feel good sayings!

"I agree. But what was his message? You only know this because the church got together judged the many books written at the time, judged them by tradition and determined what to put in the Bible."

God ordains all leadership, so I do trust in His ordination of the books of the Bible. His message was Love, simple as that! Love is what hangs on the laws of the prophets... love is everything!!!

I think we are at about the same point. I'd prefer to hear further what you have to say. We are at opposite ends of the same spectrum and communication will re-establish a foreground.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I didn't say they were written in 300. I said that they were compiled. That is, gathered together. It's like one can get an anthology of Shakespeare's works that was compiled only a few years ago, even though the Bard died in the 1600s. They're just different concepts you've mixed up.

Anyway, just by the year 260 there were hundreds of books circulating each having something to do with Christianity.

See a partial list at www.earlychristianwritings.com

Some, such as the Acts of Peter claimed to be written by Peter/his followers.

Why do we discard this?

Because the church used two tests.

One was they tested what is in that book against what the church taught; that is, by tradition.

The other is that the church was a vibrant community of letter writing and if a book no one had heard of before popped up, they'd write to each other and discuss this.

It's just crazy that Protestants think that the Bible was self-authenticating. Many books claim to have been written by such-and-such.

The Bible didn't authorise itself. It didn't fall out of heaven fully compiled. It didn't exist in a vacuum (outside of reality; the church)

then those writings that are so oft used to prove teachings and doctrines that are not found in the current pages of the canon, SHOULD have been included, according to the tests you suggest they used.

they, however, are not.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I didn't say they were written in 300. I said that they were compiled. That is, gathered together. It's like one can get an anthology of Shakespeare's works that was compiled only a few years ago, even though the Bard died in the 1600s. They're just different concepts you've mixed up.

Anyway, just by the year 260 there were hundreds of books circulating each having something to do with Christianity.

See a partial list at www.earlychristianwritings.com

Some, such as the Acts of Peter claimed to be written by Peter/his followers.

Why do we discard this?

Because the church used two tests.

One was they tested what is in that book against what the church taught; that is, by tradition.

The other is that the church was a vibrant community of letter writing and if a book no one had heard of before popped up, they'd write to each other and discuss this.

It's just crazy that Protestants think that the Bible was self-authenticating. Many books claim to have been written by such-and-such.

The Bible didn't authorise itself. It didn't fall out of heaven fully compiled. It didn't exist in a vacuum (outside of reality; the church)

then those writings that are so oft used to prove teachings and doctrines that are not found in the current pages of the canon, SHOULD have been included, according to the tests you suggest they used.

they, however, are not.

 

[LogosRhema]

then those writings that are so oft used to prove teachings and doctrines that are not found in the current pages of the canon, SHOULD have been included, according to the tests you suggest they used.

they, however, are not.

What is this canon you speak of? Sorry I'm a nub to this word.

 

[Uphill Battle]

What is this canon you speak of? Sorry I'm a nub to this word.

canon=bible.

canon of scripture only means the compilation of things considered as scripture.

 

[Uphill Battle]

What is this canon you speak of? Sorry I'm a nub to this word.

canon=bible.

canon of scripture only means the compilation of things considered as scripture.

 

[LogosRhema]

canon=bible.

canon of scripture only means the compilation of things considered as scripture.

Oh ok. Thank you.

 

[LogosRhema]

canon=bible.

canon of scripture only means the compilation of things considered as scripture.

Oh ok. Thank you.

 

[jckstraw72]

Church begins day of Pentecost 33 AD. New Testament begins c. 50 AD --- how could it possibly be the foundation of the Church?

 

[christianmomof3]

What is this canon you speak of? Sorry I'm a nub to this word.

http://www.bibledudes.com/bible/canon.php
here is a fun explanation

 

[benedictaoo]

'

 

[benedictaoo]

Old testament is scripture.
Scripture was first.
Case closed.

We aren't onbjecting to that.

But the New Testament- the good news... the gospel was not first.

What or who is it that preach the Risen Lord for the first 50 years?

 

[sunlover1]

Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 Ford all flesh is as grass,
and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.
The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.
And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.​

http://christianforums.com/t7055143-youll-hate-this-thread-i-guarantee-it-2.html&page=37#_ftn2d For: or, For that

http://christianforums.com/t7055143-youll-hate-this-thread-i-guarantee-it-2.html&page=37#_ftnref2



that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were
not made of things which do appear.

Much deeper than that.
NT, Scripture, Bible, whatever words you
choose to call it, it's still the Word of God,
and God exalts His Word above all of His
name, and so above all organizations.





http://christianforums.com/t7055143-youll-hate-this-thread-i-guarantee-it-2.html&page=37#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/t7055143-youll-hate-this-thread-i-guarantee-it-2.html&page=37#_ftnref1