You were dead?

[GingerBeer]

In the New American Standard Version bible it says

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,​

In what way were "you" dead and who is the "you"?
What is the difference between trespasses and sins?

Does the passage in Ephesians apply only to the people in the church in Ephesus to whom the letter is addressed?

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
​

 

[royal priest]

In the New American Standard Version bible it says

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,​

In what way were "you" dead and who is the "you"?
What is the difference between trespasses and sins?

Does the passage in Ephesians apply only to the people in the church in Ephesus to whom the letter is addressed?

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
​

Check it out in context:
Ephesians 1:16-20
I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers...that you may know... what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places...

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

God saved us according to resurrecting power He used when He raised Jesus from the dead. The death of unbelievers is a spiritual death evidenced by the course of their lives.

Ephesians 2:1-3
You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

The evidence of this resurrection is seen here and now in the life of the believer:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Hazelelponi]

In the New American Standard Version bible it says

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,​

In what way were "you" dead and who is the "you"?
What is the difference between trespasses and sins?

Does the passage in Ephesians apply only to the people in the church in Ephesus to whom the letter is addressed?

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
​

Difference between trespass and sins in this passage. From Ellicotts commentary:

"Trespasses and sins.--These two words, more often used separately, are here brought together, to form a climax. The word rendered "trespass" signifies a "swerving aside and falling"; the word rendered "sins" is generally used by St. Paul in the singular to denote "sin" in the abstract, and signifies an entire "missing of the mark" of life. Hence, even in the plural, it denotes universal and positive principles of evil doing, while "trespass" rather points to failure in visible and special acts of those not necessarily out of the right way."

In what way were "you" dead, A.) spiritually. The Bible teaches a dead state spiritually while still alive for those who aren't saved. Jesus once said "Let the dead bury the dead" concerning the unsaved burying their loved ones..

Most people are spiritually dead, and when we are saved we rise to new life, we become spiritually alive instead of like the dead.

The passage was specifically to those it was written for, but many verses such as this one can be applicable for many people through time.

If you want more commentary and definitions of words, www.Biblehub.com is a good site, just scroll to the bottom of page any verse is on for commentaries.

 

[GingerBeer]

Check it out in context:

I did check the context, but your advice is good because context does matter.

Ephesians 1:16-20
I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers...that you may know... what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places...

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

God saved us according to resurrecting power He used when He raised Jesus from the dead. The death of unbelievers is a spiritual death evidenced by the course of their lives.

You haven't answered the question that I was asking. What does this "dead" mean and who is the "you" that is dead?

Ephesians 2:1-3
You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

The evidence of this resurrection is seen here and now in the life of the believer:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[bcbsr]

In the New American Standard Version bible it says

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,​

In what way were "you" dead and who is the "you"?
What is the difference between trespasses and sins?

Does the passage in Ephesians apply only to the people in the church in Ephesus to whom the letter is addressed?

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
​

Concerning whether such a state was exclusive of past condition of the Ephesians, Paul goes on to write a couple of verses later, "All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath." Eph 2:3

Being dead in sin is mentioned many times in the Epistles, and even in the gospels. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Much of Ephesians is repeated in Colossians

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

There's also the converse of being dead to sin in contrast to being dead in sin

Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[St_Worm2]

In the New American Standard Version bible it says

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,​

In what way were "you" dead and who is the "you"?
What is the difference between trespasses and sins?

Does the passage in Ephesians apply only to the people in the church in Ephesus to whom the letter is addressed?
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus.

Hi GingerBeer, I agree with what Hazelelponi and Royal Priest said above, but I will add this. Those who are not "in Christ" at this moment, even the elect of God who eventually will be, are "spiritually" dead (until they have been quickened/regenerated and caused to be born again by God).

The "you" in v2:1 refers in the immediate sense to those who first received the letter from St. Paul, IOW, the Greek/Gentile believers .. cf Ephesians 1:1; 2:11 in the 1st Century Church at Ephesus. However, the universal theological truths that this letter is filled with are for ~ALL~ believers (and the saints to be, if you will), be they members of the Nations (Greeks/Gentiles), or be they Jews.

Yours and His,
David

 

[GingerBeer]

Difference between trespass and sins in this passage. From Ellicotts commentary:

"Trespasses and sins.--These two words, more often used separately, are here brought together, to form a climax. The word rendered "trespass" signifies a "swerving aside and falling"; the word rendered "sins" is generally used by St. Paul in the singular to denote "sin" in the abstract, and signifies an entire "missing of the mark" of life. Hence, even in the plural, it denotes universal and positive principles of evil doing, while "trespass" rather points to failure in visible and special acts of those not necessarily out of the right way."

I hope I am not being obtuse but do you accept the explanation that Ellicott gave in the quote you've reproduced?

In what way were "you" dead, A.) spiritually. The Bible teaches

Does it? I wonder if the bible teaches "spiritual" death. The passage in Ephesians calls the Ephesian Christians to whom the letter is addressed "dead in trespasses and sins" is that the same thing as "spiritually dead"?

a dead state spiritually while still alive for those who aren't saved. Jesus once said "Let the dead bury the dead" concerning the unsaved burying their loved ones.

What Jesus said is:

Luke 9:59-60 59 And He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." 60 But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."​

The words of Christ are in red. Jesus answered the request "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." Ambrose of Milan commented on this passage:

Though this was an act of religion, yet it was not permitted him; that we may learn to prefer always the concerns of God to all human considerations.​

and John Chrysostom commented:

However necessary this might appear, however easy, however short the time which it would take up, might be, it is not permitted him. Not the least delay can be allowed, although a thousand impediments stand in the way; for spiritual things must be preferred to things even the most necessary.​

Neither ancient commentator bothered to discuss the idea that "the dead buy their dead" has special significance. Maybe it was just an expression common enough in Jesus's day in Judea to be passed over as not especially remarkable?

Most people are spiritually dead, and when we are saved we rise to new life, we become spiritually alive instead of like the dead.

The passage was specifically to those it was written for, but many verses such as this one can be applicable for many people through time.

If you want more commentary and definitions of words, www.Biblehub.com is a good site, just scroll to the bottom of page any verse is on for commentaries.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I hope I am not being obtuse but do you accept the explanation that Ellicott gave in the quote you've reproduced? Does it? I wonder if the bible teaches "spiritual" death. The passage in Ephesians calls the Ephesian Christians to whom the letter is addressed "dead in trespasses and sins" is that the same thing as "spiritually dead"? What Jesus said is:

Luke 9:59-60 59 And He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." 60 But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."​

The words of Christ are in red. Jesus answered the request "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." Ambrose of Milan commented on this passage:

Though this was an act of religion, yet it was not permitted him; that we may learn to prefer always the concerns of God to all human considerations.​

and John Chrysostom commented:

However necessary this might appear, however easy, however short the time which it would take up, might be, it is not permitted him. Not the least delay can be allowed, although a thousand impediments stand in the way; for spiritual things must be preferred to things even the most necessary.​

Neither ancient commentator bothered to discuss the idea that "the dead buy their dead" has special significance. Maybe it was just an expression common enough in Jesus's day in Judea to be passed over as not especially remarkable?

I apologize, you came across as someone with a question concerning the passage and not someone who wanted to fight.

I see I was wrong. I'm out.

 

[GingerBeer]

Concerning whether such a state was exclusive of past condition of the Ephesians, Paul goes on to write a couple of verses later, "All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath." Eph 2:3

What you quoted is accurate enough yet it does not say "All of us also were dead in trespasses and sins" and it does not use the phrase "spiritually dead" so I wonder if maybe Paul is expressing solidarity in a shared experience of "the flesh" but not teaching universal human "spiritual death". In the NASV the quote says:

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

Being dead in sin is mentioned many times in the Epistles, and even in the gospels. Jesus said

I did a search for "dead in sin" and didn't find many passages in the epistles that used it. I found only one passage that used "dead in sins" and none that say "dead in sin".

, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Much of Ephesians is repeated in Colossians

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

There's also the converse of being dead to sin in contrast to being dead in sin

Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Being dead to sin is to be alive to God in Christ which seems to be what Paul's explanation of baptism is about where he says "Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts," which appears to imply that death to sin is about resisting sin and refusing to follow it.

 

[GingerBeer]

Difference between trespass and sins in this passage. From Ellicotts commentary:

"Trespasses and sins.--These two words, more often used separately, are here brought together, to form a climax. The word rendered "trespass" signifies a "swerving aside and falling"; the word rendered "sins" is generally used by St. Paul in the singular to denote "sin" in the abstract, and signifies an entire "missing of the mark" of life. Hence, even in the plural, it denotes universal and positive principles of evil doing, while "trespass" rather points to failure in visible and special acts of those not necessarily out of the right way."

I hope I am not being obtuse but do you accept the explanation that Ellicott gave in the quote you've reproduced?

In what way were "you" dead, A.) spiritually. The Bible teaches

Does it? I wonder if the bible teaches "spiritual" death. The passage in Ephesians calls the Ephesian Christians to whom the letter is addressed "dead in trespasses and sins" is that the same thing as "spiritually dead"?

a dead state spiritually while still alive for those who aren't saved. Jesus once said "Let the dead bury the dead" concerning the unsaved burying their loved ones.

What Jesus said is:

Luke 9:59-60 59 And He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." 60 But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."​

The words of Christ are in red. Jesus answered the request "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." Ambrose of Milan commented on this passage:

Though this was an act of religion, yet it was not permitted him; that we may learn to prefer always the concerns of God to all human considerations.​

and John Chrysostom commented:

However necessary this might appear, however easy, however short the time which it would take up, might be, it is not permitted him. Not the least delay can be allowed, although a thousand impediments stand in the way; for spiritual things must be preferred to things even the most necessary.​

Neither ancient commentator bothered to discuss the idea that "the dead buy their dead" has special significance. Maybe it was just an expression common enough in Jesus's day in Judea to be passed over as not especially remarkable?

Most people are spiritually dead, and when we are saved we rise to new life, we become spiritually alive instead of like the dead.

The passage was specifically to those it was written for, but many verses such as this one can be applicable for many people through time.

If you want more commentary and definitions of words, www.Biblehub.com is a good site, just scroll to the bottom of page any verse is on for commentaries.

I apologize, you came across as someone with a question concerning the passage and not someone who wanted to fight.

I see I was wrong. I'm out.

Expressing doubt about Ellicott's explanation isn't "wanting a fight" but if you want to go because you see it as asking for a fight then it is better for you to go.

 

[GingerBeer]

​

Hi GingerBeer, I agree with what Hazelelponi and Royal Priest said above, but I will add this. Those who are not "in Christ" at this moment, even the elect of God who eventually will be, are "spiritually" dead (until they have been quickened/regenerated and caused to be born again by God).

The "you" in v2:1 refers in the immediate sense to those who first received the letter from St. Paul who were the Greek/Gentile believers .. cf Ephesians 1:1; 2:11 in the 1st Century Church at Ephesus. However, the universal theological truths that this letter is filled with are for ~ALL~ believers (and the saints to be, if you will), be they members of the Nations (Greeks/Gentiles), or be they Jews.

Yours and His,
David

Your comment is useful. Thanks.

Why do you say that what was said to the Ephesian Christians about them being dead in trespasses and sins is a universal theological truth?

 

[bcbsr]

What you quoted is accurate enough yet it does not say "All of us also were dead in trespasses and sins" and it does not use the phrase "spiritually dead" so I wonder if maybe Paul is expressing solidarity in a shared experience of "the flesh" but not teaching universal human "spiritual death". In the NASV the quote says:

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

I did a search for "dead in sin" and didn't find many passages in the epistles that used it.

I was referring to the concept, not the literal phrase. Eph 2:1 which is in the OP uses that very concept.
"you were dead in your transgressions and sins," = "you were dead in your transgressions and dead in sins" It's basic semantics.

Being dead to sin is to be alive to God in Christ which seems to be what Paul's explanation of baptism is about where he says "Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts," which appears to imply that death to sin is about resisting sin and refusing to follow it.

"reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin" Rom 6:11 Being dead is a state not a process and therefore the state of being dead to sin is not equivalent to the process of resisting sin. Being dead to sin means first of all means that it doesn't impact our fate. For salvation is not a function of one's performance, which would be salvation by works. And secondly being dead to sin means that sin is an entity separate from ourselves and thus not a part of our identity, of which Paul elaborates in the Romans 7, the chapter that follows.

 

[St_Worm2]

Your comment is useful. Thanks.

Why do you say that what was said to the Ephesian Christians about them being dead in trespasses and sins is a universal theological truth?

Hi again GingerBeer, I think both the overall context in Ephesians as well the Bible itself, helps us with that. The specific context in Chapter 2 helps us too (so I will try to highlight a bit of that for you here):

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
​

"We" (St. Paul includes himself in this group) are all "by nature" children of our first parents. That means that even Christians begin their lives as members of "the sons of disobedience"/as "children of wrath" (even as the rest), until God, who saves us by grace, makes us alive in Christ.

This is a big part of the Biblical teaching behind the doctrine of Original Sin, IOW, that ~all~ are born with the fallen, sinful nature of our progenitors (a nature that includes a strong desire for sin and selfishness, but no desire whatsoever for God and the things of God .. well, save perhaps the "benefits" that He has to offer us, of course .. Romans 3:10-12, 23).

--David

Psalm 51
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.​

 

[NBB]

Being dead, is the natural man state without the spirit of God, and 'you' is the christians,
Before being christians we were dead (without the spirit of God making us alive).
Adam and Eve were alive, but 'died' when they sinned, we were dead and became alive after receiving the new life.
This is how i think it is.

 

[GingerBeer]

"reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin" Rom 6:11 Being dead is a state not a process and therefore the state of being dead to sin is not equivalent to the process of resisting sin. Being dead to sin means first of all means that it doesn't impact our fate. For salvation is not a function of one's performance, which would be salvation by works. And secondly being dead to sin means that sin is an entity separate from ourselves and thus not a part of our identity

Augustine commented on verse 10:

We are then dead to sin when we neither live in sin by serving it, nor sin lives in us by reigning; in this case, how can we still live in it by yielding to its desires?​

 

[bcbsr]

Augustine commented on verse 10:

We are then dead to sin when we neither live in sin by serving it, nor sin lives in us by reigning; in this case, how can we still live in it by yielding to its desires?​

Augustine is just another guy expressing his opinion. Not alive to defend his viewpoint.

 

[GingerBeer]

"We"

The difference between "you" and "we" in what Paul wrote is a single letter "we" is ἡμεῖς and you is ὑμείς. Let's hope that the copyists got it right because it looks like a lot is hanging on that one little letter.

(St. Paul includes himself in this group) are all "by nature" children of our first parents. That means that even Christians begin our lives as "the sons of disobedience/children of wrath", even as the rest, until God, who saves us by grace, makes us alive in Christ.

 

[GingerBeer]

Augustine is just another guy expressing his opinion. Not alive to defend his viewpoint.

All of us are in the same boat as Augustine in the long run. But you are right, he's just another guy.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Expressing doubt about Ellicott's explanation isn't "wanting a fight" but if you want to go because you see it as asking for a fight then it is better for you to go.

When you already have well researched the topic and have formed an opinion on what the verse means via your preferred exegetical texts, then it's disingenuous to not state that in the OP, but instead start up arguments with every one who answers your post.

And yes, Ellicott seems to have a good grasp of the definition of the words in question, in my opinion, and I'm not Anglican.

And no, I'm not arguing points with someone who couldn't even be forthcoming about the purpose of the thread. I answered a person who presented themselves as innocent.

 

[St_Worm2]

The difference between "you" and "we" in what Paul wrote is a single letter "we" is ἡμεῖς and you is ὑμείς. Let's hope that the copyists got it right because it looks like a lot is hanging on that one little letter.

Hi GingerBeer, I believe Ephesians 1 tells us who is included in the Ephesians "we" group of Chapter 2. For instance:

Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

Yours and His,
David
.