You might not have a church to go to if you don't vote right.

[LivingWordUnity]

Peter Fritzsche, a left-leaning historian, wrote on page 210 in his book Germans into Nazis that the Nazis had "anti-capitalist appeal" for the German socialist of that time. And on page 192 Fritzsche explained, "Even in left-wing Berlin the National Socialists garnered nearly 140,000 votes, a personal success for Berlin's Gauleiter Joseph Goebbels, for whom the tally was nothing less than an 'overwhelming victory.'" He also said, "Most immune to the Nazis, however, were provincial Catholic voters in Upper Silesia, Lower Bavaria, and northern Westphalia." (Fritzsche, 206)

Source:
Peter Fritzsche, Germans into Nazis (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1998).

 

[pdudgeon]

Peter Fritzsche, a left-leaning historian, wrote on page 210 in his book Germans into Nazis that the Nazis had "anti-capitalist appeal" for the German socialist of that time. And on page 192 Fritzsche explained, "Even in left-wing Berlin the National Socialists garnered nearly 140,000 votes, a personal success for Berlin's Gauleiter Joseph Goebbels, for whom the tally was nothing less than an 'overwhelming victory.'" He also said, "Most immune to the Nazis, however, were provincial Catholic voters in Upper Silesia, Lower Bavaria, and northern Westphalia." (Fritzsche, 206)

Source:
Peter Fritzsche, Germans into Nazis (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1998).

no wonder Catholics were so hated.

 

[pdudgeon]

No pd the problem is that you think somehow things are going to get the that point in the first plac



Soo.....

in your world view not only are Christians severely oppressed they're cowards as well.



Now we're back to insane hysteria again.

In my world a unarmed black man how has done nothing wrong has a higher probability of being shot by his own cities police force than a Christian has of suffering any form of oppression in the next 4 years.

^^ standard pro-forma left wing response. Catholic against Catholic.
you never disapoint. none of you do.

 

[MikeK]

I'm saying that the option to do so will be open to her.
all it will take is a liberal majority on the supreme court, and a democratic majority in congress.
she already has the news media in her pocket.

Presidents and Governors can declare martial law. Congress can too, but a President does not need the support of a majority in Congress to do so. You seem confused as to what is required for this to happen. If President Obama or Clinton or any Democratic Governorwanted to do so, they could have already. They didn't, because they all believe, as Ms Clinton does, in people's right to practice their religion.

 

[MikeK]

Where are the martyrs of the Obamaian persecution akin to those of the Diocletian persecution?

It seems that the promised (/hoped for?) persecution is always just around the corner if your guy doesn't get elected...nevermind that there hasn't been a Republican in the White House for 8 years now and in all that time you've still had churches go to. And nevermind that the last Republican that was in the White House directly intervened in another country to the degree that this intervention did actually lead to the martyrdom of hundreds of Christians, making refugees of most of the rest.

Those Christians were Iraqis, though...they don't even know what it's like to worry about a healthcare mandate or transgender bathroom habits, so what could they possibly know about persecution, or for that matter being Christian!

This ^ is what persecution is, and I find your trivializing of persecution to be disgusting, immature, and perverse. Your churches aren't going anywhere, yet you hyperbolically whip yourselves into a frenzy over 'what might happen', apparently based on your persecution fantasies of what is actually happening to your own coreligionists (the martyrs of Siyadat an-Najat in Baghdad talked about in that video were Syriac Catholics) in the Middle East as they are murdered or exiled in increasing numbers.

Perspective? Gratefulness? Trust in God? Are any of these virtues that cannot be trampled down in the rush to get 'the right guy' into the White House, or is all of that out the window because look what happens in Iraq, or in North Korea, or in this place of that place?

You are entirely correct. Unfortunately, the chicken-littling by Christians is something of a self-fulfilling prophesy. Not in that the government will crush them, but in that society will continue to push them more to the fringes and less and less people will express an interest in the faith as certain Christians ratchet up the conspiracy nonsense.

 

[MikeK]

And on page 192 Fritzsche explained, "Even in left-wing Berlin the National Socialists garnered nearly 140,000 votes, a personal success for Berlin's Gauleiter Joseph Goebbels, for whom the tally was nothing less than an 'overwhelming victory.'"

This says the opposite of what you want to believe it says.

 

[LoAmmi]

This says the opposite of what you want to believe it says.

You mean how it seems to be expressing some surprise that even in "left-wing Berlin" the NAZIs got that many votes? It doesn't seem to be suggesting that it was surprising that right-wing people voted that way.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

You mean how it seems to be expressing some surprise that even in "left-wing Berlin" the NAZIs got that many votes? It doesn't seem to be suggesting that it was surprising that right-wing people voted that way.

But Peter Fritzsche also said, "Most immune to the Nazis, however, were provincial Catholic voters in Upper Silesia, Lower Bavaria, and northern Westphalia."

 

[MikeK]

You mean how it seems to be expressing some surprise that even in "left-wing Berlin" the NAZIs got that many votes? It doesn't seem to be suggesting that it was surprising that right-wing people voted that way.

Exactly.

But Peter Fritzsche also said, "Most immune to the Nazis, however, were provincial Catholic voters in Upper Silesia, Lower Bavaria, and northern Westphalia."

Which neither states nor even suggests the point you desperately want to make - and have spent years trying to make in various rather hamfisted ways - that Nazis advocated for or practiced something that could be recognized as socialism and were actually a far-left movement (like the Soviets and Marxist Socialists they so hated) rather than a far right movement. That the Nazis, evil as they were, generally avoided collectivism and in fact afforded private heavy industries far more freedom, even in wartime, than virtually any other major player is lost on those bent on dishonestly smearing political rivals rather than accurately recounting historical fact regardless of political convenience.

 

[pdudgeon]

Where are the martyrs of the Obamaian persecution akin to those of the Diocletian persecution?

It seems that the promised (/hoped for?) persecution is always just around the corner if your guy doesn't get elected...nevermind that there hasn't been a Republican in the White House for 8 years now and in all that time you've still had churches go to. And nevermind that the last Republican that was in the White House directly intervened in another country to the degree that this intervention did actually lead to the martyrdom of hundreds of Christians, making refugees of most of the rest.

Those Christians were Iraqis, though...they don't even know what it's like to worry about a healthcare mandate or transgender bathroom habits, so what could they possibly know about persecution, or for that matter being Christian!

This ^ is what persecution is, and I find your trivializing of persecution to be disgusting, immature, and perverse. Your churches aren't going anywhere, yet you hyperbolically whip yourselves into a frenzy over 'what might happen', apparently based on your persecution fantasies of what is actually happening to your own coreligionists (the martyrs of Siyadat an-Najat in Baghdad talked about in that video were Syriac Catholics) in the Middle East as they are murdered or exiled in increasing numbers.

Perspective? Gratefulness? Trust in God? Are any of these virtues that cannot be trampled down in the rush to get 'the right guy' into the White House, or is all of that out the window because look what happens in Iraq, or in North Korea, or in this place of that place?

is this really what you need to see in order to believe?
it's a legitamate question, and a timeless one at that.
but it also comes under the "be careful what you ask for" category.

then again, those who make little or no noise usually manage to evade the notice of
those who are opposed to any noise at all.

so if we're only talking about persecution you could rest easy.
but if it advances to eradication, then people who are looking for proof of persecution
will have no trouble in finding it right on their doorstep.
indeed, then their problem will be to escape it.
and in order to do so they might just resort to what Peter
chose to do-- deny, deny, deny.

 

[dzheremi]

is this really what you need to see in order to believe?
it's a legitamate question, and a timeless one at that.
but it also comes under the "be careful what you ask for" category.

then again, those who make little or no noise usually manage to evade the notice of
those who are opposed to any noise at all.

What are you trying to say here? Can you rephrase it, please? I don't understand.

so if we're only talking about persecution you could rest easy.

Well, when people make the claim that you won't have a church to go to anymore, I'd say that would fit under the umbrella of persecution pretty well. Except that that is not what has happened under Obama (despite many here thinking that he's basically Satan), and there's no reason to believe that it would happen under Clinton, either.

but if it advances to eradication, then people who are looking for proof of persecution
will have no trouble in finding it right on their doorstep.

Um...yep. Good thing that's not what's happening or going to happen in the USA based on the election or anything else. What's your point?

and in order to do so they might just resort to what Peter
chose to do-- deny, deny, deny.

I don't who the 'they' you're referring to here is. The only group I brought up is Iraqi Christians. They've got it worse than any group of Americans indulging in persecution and martyrdom fantasies, and by and large they're not denying anything, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Pictured: Iraqi refugee camp. You can tell which ones are the Christians' tents because the occupants spray painted big crosses on them and the phrase "Jesus is the light of the world" (يسوع نور العالم).

 

[pdudgeon]

What are you trying to say here? Can you rephrase it, please? I don't understand.

certainly.
your question was asking where the martyrs of the Obama regime are as compared to the time of Diocletion.
So i would presume that you are in fact looking for rows upon rows of Christians hung up on burning crosses that line the major roadways.
I said that it was a good question, but that it was also a query that a person should be cautious in requesting proof for.

today what we see instead of burning crosses is bibles taken out of public places,
Service chaplains muzzled,
Christian business people hauled into court or jailed for the exercise of their religious conscious objection rights on the one hand, but not for their civil disobedience.
schools and teachers required by law to teach against their personel religious beliefs,
graduation exercises changed to remove the name of God from the proceedings,
laws being passed to permit murder of the young and the old.
and lest we forget, the curent slant of the news against religion.

the crosses are different today, but they are there.

Well, when people make the claim that you won't have a church to go to anymore, I'd say that would fit under the umbrella of persecution pretty well. Except that that is not what has happened under Obama (despite many here thinking that he's basically Satan), and there's no reason to believe that it would happen under Clinton, either.

except that Clinton has promised to go further than Obama did.
She promises to extend the legal period under which abortion can take place, up to and including live birth.
She promises to have common core taught in all schools.
she is against home schooling.
She is pro euthanasia.
She is pro same sex marriage, same sex bathrooms and changing rooms, and the eradication of
sexually designated pronouns (he, she, hers, his, boys, girls, men, women, etc.)
She promises to nominate for the supreme court judges who will enact such legislation
She promises to increase the number of approved immigrants into this country,
to decrease the military
to decrease Social Security
and she is against the repeal of the Johnson amendment which muzzles the churches and non-profit organizations from political endorsements.
All of the above things which she is for, the church is against, and vice versa.
With all of that in mind, will it be any wonder if she doesn't close the doors of churches who are opposed to all that she intends to enact into legislation?

Um...yep. Good thing that's not what's happening or going to happen in the USA based on the election or anything else. What's your point?

my point is why would she say such things if she had no intention of doing them?
and if she does intend to do them, who would benefit and who would suffer?

I don't who the 'they' you're referring to here is. The only group I brought up is Iraqi Christians. They've got it worse than any group of Americans indulging in persecution and martyrdom fantasies, and by and large they're not denying anything, so I don't know what you're talking about.

and you were comparing them to the American Christians, and wondering where the persecution was.
Even in your second sentence in the quote directly above this response you bring in the Americans, so i answered accordingly to show you that the persecution you are wanting to observe is in the wings as we speak.
and when it hits America the numbers will be greater than your example above.

Pictured: Iraqi refugee camp. You can tell which ones are the Christians' tents because the occupants spray painted big crosses on them and the phrase "Jesus is the light of the world" (يسوع نور العالم).[/QUOTE]

 

[MikeK]

today what we see instead of burning crosses is bibles taken out of public places,

I suspect (and a quick check of sales history plus a little guessing at attrition rates based on those of other books proves me right) that there are more Bibles in the USA than at any time in history. Prior to the Gideons, Bibles were pretty rare outside Churches, homes, and Libraries.

Service chaplains muzzled

Service Chaplains have long been muzzled, they were never permitted to share the news that American military actions in Korea, Vietnam or any of our "splendid little wars" were contrary to any reading of Just War Doctrine and thus participation in them might be judged harshly by the Lord.

Christian business people hauled into court or jailed for the exercise of their religious conscious objection rights on the one hand, but not for their civil disobedience.[/QUOTEW]

That's an interesting claim. I have seen people people hauled into court for civil disobedience and I have seen Christian business people allowed to exercise their rights of conscientious objection. I am not denying that examples to the contrary exist, but that you elect to only share half of the story makes me question. you commitment to exposing the full truth.

schools and teachers required by law to teach against their personel religious beliefs

This is a good thing. I had a Quaker teacher. I am thankful that he had to teach the fullness of opinion (which generally cast his personal opinions in a poor light) in class. I am glad he was not permitted to pollute childrens' minds with biased filth.

graduation exercises changed to remove the name of God from the proceedings

In public schools, where many don't believe in God? Gasp!

laws being passed to permit murder of the young and the old.

This is most unfortunate. We must all live and embrace all human life and reach out to welcome and serve all in need, young and old, regardless of race or creed or age or country of origen. Let us open our homes and welcome the needy to a place at our table and a bed under our roof!

and lest we forget, the curent slant of the news against religion.

If you have a better idea than the free press as protected in the USA I'd love to hear it.

the crosses are different today, but they are there.

By "different", I suspect you mean "largely imaginary by a rich and privilaged community set on believing that they are victims even as others starve and die because these Christians elect to live in luxury instead of living lives of service to God through their overt love of the least fortunate.

except that Clinton has promised to go further than Obama did.
She promises to extend the legal period under which abortion can take place, up to and including live birth.

Right now, abortion is legal until the moment of birth, just as it was under President Reagan. Please share Ms Clinton'a direct statement that she will "promise" to allow abortions after birth. Not partial abortions, actual abortions after live birth.

She promises to have common core taught in all schools.

Ummm....Good. Americans are so poor at math, and Common Core methods are a step in the right direction. There are some parents who object because they don't understand it, but these parents are...well....yeah. Every day I work with engineers from a dozen countries. Americans who grew up in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s are (and I include myself among these!) stupid in comparison. Common Core brings proven methods at /understanding/ math to the classroom...regardless what nonsense Facebook memes by 3rd rate "Engineers" say to the contrary.

she is against home shooling.

She favors controls on home schooling but has not come out against it.

She is pro euthanasia.

Her position on euthanasia does not seem to favor it. She does seem to favor assisted suicide.

She is pro same sex marriage, same sex bathrooms and changing rooms, and the eradication of
sexually designated pronouns (he, she, hers, his, boys, girls, men, women, etc.)

Please share her direct and overt statement that she favors same sex changing rooms or have the decency to withdraw your accusation.

She promises to nominate for the supreme court judges who will enact such legislation

/What/ legislation? Please be specific and share her statements.

She promises to increase the number of approved immigrants into this country

Good! This position will please Catholics!

to decrease the military

Good! Have you seen the % of our GDP we spend on our military compared to our potential adversaries?

to decrease Social Security

Uh....

and she is against the repeal of the Johnson amendment which muzzles the churches and non-profit organizations from political endorsements.

Lol! Muzzles? All these groups have to do if they choose to be overtly political is pay taxes like every other PAC. The Johnson Ammendment protects Churches and frees up theor resources to serve the poor in a way that pleases Christ.

 

[pdudgeon]

I suspect (and a quick check of sales history plus a little guessing at attrition rates based on those of other books proves me right) that there are more Bibles in the USA than at any time in history. Prior to the Gideons, Bibles were pretty rare outside Churches, homes, and Libraries.



Service Chaplains have long been muzzled, they were never permitted to share the news that American military actions in Korea, Vietnam or any of our "splendid little wars" were contrary to any reading of Just War Doctrine and thus participation in them might be judged harshly by the Lord.

3 squirrel sightings do not a response make.

 

[Fantine]

I am really a little bit confused with this article and message.

I think this good priest has looked at the terrible situation we have in Congress and decided that there was so much polarization in Congress and in the country that his only option if Democrats get into power is to head for the hills.

But I think the good priest forgets that it isn't Democrats who are causing the polarization. It isn't Democrats who are obstructing Congress. It isn't Democrats who are making inflammatory, radical speeches.

So even if the good priest disagrees with Democratic politics, he can be consoled by the fact that they don't possess the same personality characteristics that are poisoning Congress today.

 

[MikeK]

3 squirrel sightings do not a response make.

That's a rather disrespectful response unfit the dignity due a member of God's creation. If you're sincerely interested in a discussion on the topics you mentioned and that we apparently disagree in, I welcome that. If you want to avoid serious responses and respond as you have here, I understand.

 

[pdudgeon]

That's a rather disrespectful response unfit the dignity due a member of God's creation. If you're sincerely interested in a discussion on the topics you mentioned and that we apparently disagree in, I welcome that. If you want to avoid serious responses and respond as you have here, I understand.

very well, we'll try it your way.

your points were off topic. (squirrel sightings)
1. the number of bibles was not in question; their current restriction of both presence and use in the military (where previously there had been no restriction) was. If Hilary is elected we can expect to see more of the same.

2. Prior to the existance of the Gideons bibles were used as primary teaching tools in schools and colleges across this nation and in Europe, along with horn books and primers from elementary age all the way through and including colleges and universities.
If Hillary is elected we can expect to see even greater restictions of the mention of God's name in all our schools.

3. the corps of Service chaplains were formed in order to provide religious counseling, guidance and religious services to those in the military who were away from home, and who otherwise would not have had such services. At one time they were deemed an essential necessity. Now those same chaplains have restrictions placed upon them to the extent that the effectiveness of their very ministry to the military is in question.
And if Hillary is elected we can expect to see a drastic reduction in our military, a reduction which will most likely also affect the availability of military chaplains to our service people.

as i said, your post was off topic. squirrel sightings. designed specifically to throw the thread off track.

the subject of the thread is the question of whether or not the doors of our churches will be closed if Hillary is elected.
not the number of bibles
not how they are used
not the restrictions on military chaplains.

squirrel sightings.

please do the OP the courtesy of posting on topic from now on.

 

[MikeK]

very well, we'll try it your way.

your points were off topic. (squirrel sightings)
1. the number of bibles was not in question; their current restriction of both presence and use in the military (where previously there had been no restriction) was. If Hilary is elected we can expect to see more of the same.

So when you said "bibles taken out of public places", you meant "Bibles forbidden from some places in the military", is that correct? I want to understand your statements and I'm not certain that I do. I am aware of several military installations that have Bibles on their grounds in appropriate places.

2. Prior to the existance of the Gideons bibles were used as primary teaching tools in schools and colleges across this nation and in Europe, along with horn books and primers from elementary age all the way through and including colleges and universities.
If Hillary is elected we can expect to see even greater restictions of the mention of God's name in all our schools.

Bibles used as primary teaching tools in schools? Presuming you're talking about public schools, I wouldn't care to see that. Please share Hilary's plan for "even greater restictions of the mention of God's name in all our schools." You saying that she'll do something isn't a very persuasive argument that she will.

3. the corps of Service chaplains were formed in order to provide religious counseling, guidance and religious services to those in the military who were away from home, and who otherwise would not have had such services. At one time they were deemed an essential necessity. Now those same chaplains have restrictions placed upon them to the extent that the effectiveness of their very ministry to the military is in question.

Please tell me about these restrictions. Please compare and contrast them with the restrictions they faced in previous generations when they were told not to preach against actions which were clearly example of unjust war from a Catholic perspective.

And if Hillary is elected we can expect to see a drastic reduction in our military, a reduction which will most likely also affect the availability of military chaplains to our service people.

Wouldn't a smaller military see a reduction in the number of Chaplains needed? That seems to be an issue of proportion. as it turns out, Chaplains are actually in significant demand right now. It isn't that the Obama administration isn't hiring them, it's that Christians are not coming forward in the numbers needed.

as i said, your post was off topic. squirrel sightings. designed specifically to throw the thread off track.

the subject of the thread is the question of whether or not the doors of our churches will be closed if Hillary is elected.
not the number of bibles
not how they are used

Everything we've talked about is on the topic of this thread. You cannot make errant, off topic statements (like you did on Bibles in public....uh, I mean, in the military?) and then complain that good people who correct the errors you preach are off topic.

 

[pdudgeon]

So when you said "bibles taken out of public places", you meant "Bibles forbidden from some places in the military", is that correct? I want to understand your statements and I'm not certain that I do. I am aware of several military installations that have Bibles on their grounds in appropriate places.



Bibles used as primary teaching tools in schools? Presuming you're talking about public schools, I wouldn't care to see that. Please share Hilary's plan for "even greater restictions of the mention of God's name in all our schools." You saying that she'll do something isn't a very persuasive argument that she will.



Please tell me about these restrictions. Please compare and contrast them with the restrictions they faced in previous generations when they were told not to preach against actions which were clearly example of unjust war from a Catholic perspective.



Wouldn't a smaller military see a reduction in the number of Chaplains needed? That seems to be an issue of proportion. as it turns out, Chaplains are actually in significant demand right now. It isn't that the Obama administration isn't hiring them, it's that Christians are not coming forward in the numbers needed.



Everything we've talked about is on the topic of this thread. You cannot make errant, off topic statements (like you did on Bibles in public....uh, I mean, in the military?) and then complain that good people who correct the errors you preach are off topic.

repeating:
as i said, your post was off topic. squirrel sightings. designed specifically to throw the thread off track.

the subject of the thread is the question of whether or not the doors of our churches will be closed if Hillary is elected.
not the number of bibles
not how they are used
not the restrictions on military chaplains.

squirrel sightings.

please do the OP the courtesy of posting on topic from now on.

 

[MikeK]

repeating:
as i said, your post was off topic. squirrel sightings. designed specifically to throw the thread off track.

The topic of what topics are on topic is off topic.

the subject of the thread is the question of whether or not the doors of our churches will be closed if Hillary is elected.
not the number of bibles
not how they are used
not the restrictions on military chaplains.

Then why did you freely elect to bring those things up?

squirrel sightings.

please do the OP the courtesy of posting on topic from now on.

The OP is essentially one giant lie. To fail to address it and correct it and expose it as nonsense as has been done here would amount to cooperation in an attack against the good readers of this forum. We all have a duty to stand for truth and reason and to fight alarmist nonsense spouted in the name of Christ wherever we see it.