You can't have it both ways, sorry!

[geekgirlkelli]

Time and time again I run into Christians (on this board and elsewhere) who on one hand will say that the government has no right to interfere with (among other things) their beliefs and their personal life.

And on the other hand, they are perfectly willing to allow (or even encourage) the government to interfere with the lives of others.

On one hand they will say something like, "This is a Christian nation" when it is convenient to say it, usually when it's about matters they believe are sin and therefore believe the government should control "because the Bible says..."

On the other hand, when you point out that the Bible commands Christians to be charitable, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, etc... They will say "I don't want the government in my business and telling me how I should spend my money or spending it for me."

This is a hypocrisy of epidemic proportion.

(To be fair, many liberal non-theists engage in similar hypocrisies.)


You can't have it both ways. You can't say you want the government to control x because "The Bible says so" and then turn around and say the government has no right to interfere with your life because the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and Separation of Church and State.

Sorry, but once you've said "OK government, we don't want Group A to be allowed to to x [because the Bible says it's sin]" you've opened yourself up to be subject to the same control.

So the next time someone suggests, for example, that the government should force you to be charitable (after all, this is a Christian Nation and the Bible commands Christians to be charitable) or any other issue we can think of that God commands you to do that you aren't doing, or some other "sin" you're engaging in that you shouldn't, think about what you did and said the day you tried to shove your theology down the throat of a non-Christian through the government.

No, you can't have it both ways. You can try, but doing so makes you a complete hypocrite, and it will turn around and bite you.

 

[a.d.ivNonasNovembres]

I think the government should uphold what is right and true, regardless of what I or anyone else believe, if that means interference, so be it. Since I think Christianity is right and true it is for the implications of that creed that I agitate. I expect people who disagree to do likewise for their creeds but that does not mean I don't think them wrong.

 

[OphidiaPhile]

I think the government should uphold what is right and true, regardless of what I or anyone else believe, if that means interference, so be it. Since I think Christianity is right and true it is for the implications of that creed that I agitate. I expect people who disagree to do likewise for their creeds but that does not mean I don't think them wrong.

It is never acceptable for any government to delve into religion as it ends up endorsing one religion over all others and those of no religious belief so leave religion to those that practice it and keep it completely away from anything even remotely resembling government.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Our government interferes with our personal lives everyday. Income taxes, IRS, Patriot Act, court duty, road surveillance, county ordinances, city tax payer paid construction, RICO, prosecuting the innocent, obscenity and PDA laws, stock market guidelines, the loss of jobs due to government and economy problems, inside trading and market manipulation, the CIA, NSA, etc. Hell even if you discipline your child too harshly the government can come and take away your children if they want. The government could make your personal life a living hell if it deemed it right to do.

Marriage is also a special right by the way. Marriage isn't a normal right like say freedom of speech, considering there are many things than can void someone from getting married, like polygamy, homosexuality, ages under 16, animals and cousins.

 

[a.d.ivNonasNovembres]

It is never acceptable for any government to delve into religion as it ends up endorsing one religion over all others and those of no religious belief so leave religion to those that practice it and keep it completely away from anything even remotely resembling government.

"It is never acceptable"? On what authority do you make such an absolute moral statement? Why should I suppose it any more valid than the belief of some Africans that uncircumcised women are unmarriageable? Secularism's just another cultural idiosyncrasy that I am in no sense obliged to ascribe to as far as I am concerned, like footbinding, sitar playing or wearing headscarves.

 

[.Sabre.]

"It is never acceptable"? On what authority do you make such an absolute moral statement? Why should I suppose it any more valid than the belief of some Africans that uncircumcised women are unmarriageable? Secularism's just another cultural idiosyncrasy that I am in no sense obliged to ascribe to as far as I am concerned, like footbinding, sitar playing or wearing headscarves.

Do tell: how is secularism in any way like something as painful and damaging to the body as footbinding? How is it anything like the (needless and outdated IMO) practice of wearing headscarves? How is it like sitar playing? Your comparison isn't making sense to me.

 

[a.d.ivNonasNovembres]

Do tell: how is secularism in any way like something as painful and damaging to the body as footbinding? How is it anything like the (needless and outdated IMO) practice of wearing headscarves? How is it like sitar playing? Your comparison isn't making sense to me.

Like all those things it is just some cultural value, which its adherents thinks is worthy but which those of us outside its circle don't really understand the point of.

 

[geekgirlkelli]

Our government interferes with our personal lives everyday. Income taxes, IRS, Patriot Act, court duty, road surveillance, county ordinances, city tax payer paid construction, RICO, prosecuting the innocent, obscenity and PDA laws, stock market guidelines, the loss of jobs due to government and economy problems, inside trading and market manipulation, the CIA, NSA, etc. Hell even if you discipline your child too harshly the government can come and take away your children if they want. The government could make your personal life a living hell if it deemed it right to do.

Marriage is also a special right by the way. Marriage isn't a normal right like say freedom of speech, considering there are many things than can void someone from getting married, like polygamy, homosexuality, ages under 16, animals and cousins.

Funny, I never mentioned marriage...

Yes, the government does interfere in lots of ways. And there are lots of things in which I disagree with the government. I work in media, radio specifically. I think the FCC rules on obscenity are silly and I've spoken out about that before (not necessarily here). Don't even get me started on the Patriot Act -- and taxes (I live in NY!).

However, you completely -- seemingly on purpose -- missed the point. I could not have made it any more clear, so I will not bother further explaining it to you.

 

[That_Guy_Josh]

I'm really confused in your logic and they way you go about presenting it. Do you have specific examples?

Are you talking about taxes? Are you talking about being in Iraq? Confused all around here.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Funny, I never mentioned marriage...

Yes, the government does interfere in lots of ways. And there are lots of things in which I disagree with the government. I work in media, radio specifically. I think the FCC rules on obscenity are silly and I've spoken out about that before (not necessarily here). Don't even get me started on the Patriot Act -- and taxes (I live in NY!).

However, you completely -- seemingly on purpose -- missed the point. I could not have made it any more clear, so I will not bother further explaining it to you.

Well your OP was more of a statement rather than a question. And the government does force us to be in charitable in ways, where do you think all the money from welfare , food stamps, SSA, HUD rental assistance and other Section 8 help, SSI(supplemental security income), and other forms of government assistance and housing comes from? Our taxes also goto the up keep of things like social services, shelters, county hospitals, and other forms of emergency help.

Some people(christians included) do complain, but they complain about usually the people on welfare who can work and thus waste their tax money, or things like Title X funding abortions with tax money. There are things that the government manipulates. But as Christ said "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars".

Now what is truly Ceasars? well that is the hard question. Jesus could of meant don't pay your taxes because in reality nothing truly does belong to Ceasar. Or visa versa.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

What a very, very, good thread topic.

One of the best I've yet to see!!!

Time and time again I run into Christians (on this board and elsewhere) who on one hand will say that the government has no right to interfere with (among other things) their beliefs and their personal life.

Personal life in the United States of America entails voting in a democratic republic format to gain the society in which you think will be best for a moral and sound environment. That is why we vote about laws.

And on the other hand, they are perfectly willing to allow (or even encourage) the government to interfere with the lives of others.

That is the very basis of a democracy. Nudists shouldn't be allowed to come into a public restaurant and be allowed to sit on the same chairs that other people will be sitting on. Um, uh, I mean YUCK!

On one hand they will say something like, "This is a Christian nation" when it is convenient to say it, usually when it's about matters they believe are sin and therefore believe the government should control "because the Bible says..."

Not really. Usually these misguided Christians say this when some non or anti Christian wants to simply discard the influence of the Christians that helped build all of the finest examples of American life, and are discounted as if they never existed. To say that this is a "Christians nation" is wrong and inappropriate and to say that Christians didn't literally build its infrastructure of morality and justice is stupidity, bigotry or hatefullness directed at Christians and Christianity. Which we see rather often lately.

On the other hand, when you point out that the Bible commands Christians to be charitable, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, etc... They will say "I don't want the government in my business and telling me how I should spend my money or spending it for me."

Government has proven inept and in many cases absolutely corrupt with money that they force from decent and honest people with insane taxation and restrictions of actions and freedoms on the very best of people. Christians are just as much citizens of of this republica and have the exact same individual rights and group rights as any of the liberal and progressive and anti American freedoms groups do.

This is a hypocrisy of epidemic proportion.

Only if a Christian holds an anti Christian and a non Christian to the standards of Christian life. Other than that, a person with the right to vote is the exact equal as any one else. And of course this includes young people that have yet gained the age to vote.

(To be fair, many liberal non-theists engage in similar hypocrisies.)

I would assert in far greater degree and occurances. Abortion, property rights, and gun ownership comes quickly to mind. Liberals and progressives talk about freedoms but take them away from those they do not agree to live like.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say you want the government to control x because "The Bible says so" and then turn around and say the government has no right to interfere with your life because the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and Separation of Church and State.

Living a life influenced by the Bible is no different than living a life influenced by Origins Of Species or some whacked out Neitzsche stuff. Many, many, many books and writings completely influence people's decision making process. The myth of global warming is a prime example. Oh and let's not forget Karl Marx. The messiah-like figure of many leftist ideas. I already mentioned Darwin's influence uber alles.

Sorry, but once you've said "OK government, we don't want Group A to be allowed to to x [because the Bible says it's sin]" you've opened yourself up to be subject to the same control.

Good point. Let's do it. For Torah believers, Torah accountability. For Tanakh followers Old Testament beliefs. For Jesus followers, the Gospel and Apostolic writings. I'm betting that society becomes rather excellent if more people employ Jesus and His Disiples think. We've seen how catastrophically damaging secularism has become.

So the next time someone suggests, for example, that the government should force you to be charitable (after all, this is a Christian Nation and the Bible commands Christians to be charitable)

Excuse me . . . it is excluesively the Leftists and all their usual suspects attached to that ideology, that "FORCE" money out of people's families. Christians desire to have their own money and give it to issues that they see the need for. If you'll notice, hospitals, universities and WORLDWIDE outreach to the most suffering peoples on earth is what Christians do with their money.

. . . or any other issue we can think of that God commands you to do that you aren't doing, or some other "sin" you're engaging in that you shouldn't,

You mean like the "sin" of promiscuity? You know the behavior killing millions and millions and millions of human beings? Secularism just says "be safe." Well, doing as thou wilt . . . has harmed entire generations and generations yet to come.

. . . think about what you did and said the day you tried to shove your theology down the throat of a non-Christian through the government.

When has it worked yet? So far, the populace can do whatever they please and the non and anti Christians force money from the people that do not engage in "sinful" behavior to pay all the bills for those that do.

If there is such a thing as evil . . . we may be approaching a time when it is easy to locate who and what IS evil.

No, you can't have it both ways. You can try, but doing so makes you a complete hypocrite, and it will turn around and bite you.

Tell that to the non and anti Christians telling Christians they must be like non and anti Christians IN A DEMOCRATIC and FREE society!!!!!

The worst situations yet to arise on the land occupied by the people known as Americans (US Americans) havebeen caused by the secularism that literally is what the founders implemented as its form of society. The very best of things that have been created on the same land, have come from some of its Bible-affirming Christian citizens.

Thanks for a great thread subject.

 

[OphidiaPhile]

Our government interferes with our personal lives everyday. Income taxes, IRS, Patriot Act, court duty, road surveillance, county ordinances, city tax payer paid construction, RICO, prosecuting the innocent, obscenity and PDA laws, stock market guidelines, the loss of jobs due to government and economy problems, inside trading and market manipulation, the CIA, NSA, etc. Hell even if you discipline your child too harshly the government can come and take away your children if they want. The government could make your personal life a living hell if it deemed it right to do.

Marriage is also a special right by the way. Marriage isn't a normal right like say freedom of speech, considering there are many things than can void someone from getting married, like polygamy, homosexuality, ages under 16, animals and cousins.

The Supreme Court has deemed that marriage is a civil right therefore you have no basis for claiming that marriage is a special right. In most states people under 16 can get married with parental consent and it is legal in many areas to marry cousins and the CA Supreme Court has ruled that gay marriage is a Constitutional right.

 

[OphidiaPhile]

"It is never acceptable"? On what authority do you make such an absolute moral statement? Why should I suppose it any more valid than the belief of some Africans that uncircumcised women are unmarriageable? Secularism's just another cultural idiosyncrasy that I am in no sense obliged to ascribe to as far as I am concerned, like footbinding, sitar playing or wearing headscarves.

So you think that your religions is superior to any other person ideology or opinion but most western governments rely on science to make decisions and science ahs found there to be no evidence that Christianity is anything more that a social construct.

 

[OphidiaPhile]

Like all those things it is just some cultural value, which its adherents thinks is worthy but which those of us outside its circle don't really understand the point of.

But there is absolutely no evidence for any religion to be true or accurate other than the opinions of those that adhere to it.

 

[a.d.ivNonasNovembres]

So you think that your religions is superior to any other person ideology or opinion but most western governments rely on science to make decisions and science ahs found there to be no evidence that Christianity is anything more that a social construct.

Science has absolutely nothing to say about what society ought to value, yet governments must make its choices based on value judgments relating to outcomes even if the evidence that a particular policy will lead to particular outcomes is perfect (a very unlikely thing in itself).

 

[a.d.ivNonasNovembres]

But there is absolutely no evidence for any religion to be true or accurate other than the opinions of those that adhere to it.

I would dispute that, but its really going beyond the scope of the thread.

 

[Verv]

I think the government has the right to step in to protect the interests of any individual, whether it is stopping someone from being a drug addict or stopping someone from being a threat to others.

Sometimes Christians can be a threat to others. Sometimes the government should step in.

Fundamentally, though, I agree with Kelli on this. The US government specifically focuses on maximizing freedoms of individuals. It should maximize these freedoms.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

So you think that your religions is superior to any other person ideology or opinion but most western governments rely on science to make decisions and science ahs found there to be no evidence that Christianity is anything more that a social construct.

I challange your assertion that science has found nothing verifying christianty. Archeology has uncovered so many verifications of the bible that even the most hard nosed skeptics cannot ignore.

 

[OphidiaPhile]

I challange your assertion that science has found nothing verifying christianty. Archeology has uncovered so many verifications of the bible that even the most hard nosed skeptics cannot ignore.

There has been no verification found of anything in the bible, finding a town or city where men that wrote the bible say it was is most certainly not evidence that it is any way supporting the bible for anything more than a basic road map.

 

[Isambard]

I imagine the confusion stems from misrepresentation with the labels many conservative christians choose for themselves. They are not really Republicans, but Opportunists.