You can't be both.

[JoabAnias]

The ones who go to "quacks" are few and far between because abortion is legal in your country. In countries where abortion is illegal, women will go to "quacks" in far greater numbers, and die, in far greater numbers.

 

[Calliso]

The ones who go to the quacks are few and far between.

But for all the cheering for safe conditions, one would really think they were safe.
FAR from it.

Many women died at the hands of 'safe' procedures.
Hemorreghing days after, and dying within days but because they didnt officially die at the abortion clinic, they arent counted as abortion induced deaths.

So the abortionists dont have to count them in their high numbers.

Safe? No.

Again, i see it no where in scriptures to commit abortions.
What did Christ say...'Weep for your children's children who say happy is the barren womb and the paps that dont give suck.'

Why weep for them?
Because the sin is grave.

I donlt think anyone has said they are completely safe. No medical procedure comes without some risk. But there is a big difference between the safety of some backalley abortion or homedone abortion and a legal abortion done by trained staff in a sterile hospital enviroment.

 

[JoabAnias]

I donlt think anyone has said they are completely safe. No medical procedure comes without some risk. But there is a big difference between the safety of some backalley abortion or homedone abortion and a legal abortion done by trained staff in a sterile hospital enviroment.

This is a lie on many counts. It claims that "back-alley" abortions were common before abortion was legalized, that women aren't dying from abortions now, and that women are forced to have abortions.

The goal of this statement is to implant an image in the public's mind of the countryside being littered with the bodies of women slaughtered by botched abortions. Classic emotional blackmail.

First, let's get our terminology correct. When these guys moved from the back alleys to Main Street, that didn't change what they were one bit. They were morally degenerate butchers when they were in the back alleys, and they're morally degenerate butchers today.

Secondly, most illegal abortions didn't occur because women were forced to have them. In The Search for an Abortionist, Nancy Howell Lee's investigation of the pre-Roe criminal abortion network, "the picture presented is one of women quite unambivalently rejecting the pregnancy."

Each woman consulted an average of six people to find an abortionist. In other words, before Roe, abortions were reserved for women who really wanted them and were willing to go to a lot of trouble to get them. This hardly sounds like being "forced."

Legalizing abortion only changed two things: it became easier to browbeat women into abortions, and abortionists no longer went to jail for botching them. Only an abortionist could consider that an improvement.
Letter 274

And while I agree that no woman should have to suffer such risks and indignities, I need to point out two things: legal abortion is no better, and it is pro-choicers, not pro-lifers, who submit women to such ordeals. Pro-lifers offer help raising the child or placing her for adoption. Pro-choicers offer a cannula or a coat hanger.
Some choice.
Letter 278

Your reasoning is along the lines that • "The smoking of crack cocaine should be legalized because, after all, the poor cannot afford such a glamorous drug as can the rich [or to legalize it would make it controlled and safer for the addict as they wouldn't have to hit the streets to find the drug]."

Answering Pro-abortion Rhetoric​

 

[WarriorAngel]

The ones who go to "quacks" are few and far between because abortion is legal in your country. In countries where abortion is illegal, women will go to "quacks" in far greater numbers, and die, in far greater numbers.

I was talking about PRE Roe v Wade...and the incidental death is higher with 'safe' procedures...they just dont want you to know that. Its political...its for monetary capitalism.

Its for pocket lining at campaign time.

I donlt think anyone has said they are completely safe. No medical procedure comes without some risk. But there is a big difference between the safety of some backalley abortion or homedone abortion and a legal abortion done by trained staff in a sterile hospital enviroment.

Sterile?

So you think the risk far out weighs the choice to not sleep around or kill a child?

Well, maybe you should talk to the family members who lost their daughters to these 'safe' procedures.
Look at how young they were...how healthy they were with their lives ahead of them....
Killed by something they choose.

And it could have been avoided if they just gave the child up for adoption.

They, nor their baby, can come back.
But...eh, they are just incidental deaths... who cares?

Where is the compassion?

 

[WarriorAngel]

... who cares?

The Catholic Church does. For both mother and child.
Both physical and spiritual.

 

[Calliso]

This is a lie on many counts. It claims that "back-alley" abortions were common before abortion was legalized, that women aren't dying from abortions now, and that women are forced to have abortions.

The goal of this statement is to implant an image in the public's mind of the countryside being littered with the bodies of women slaughtered by botched abortions. Classic emotional blackmail.

First, let's get our terminology correct. When these guys moved from the back alleys to Main Street, that didn't change what they were one bit. They were morally degenerate butchers when they were in the back alleys, and they're morally degenerate butchers today.

Secondly, most illegal abortions didn't occur because women were forced to have them. In The Search for an Abortionist, Nancy Howell Lee's investigation of the pre-Roe criminal abortion network, "the picture presented is one of women quite unambivalently rejecting the pregnancy."

Each woman consulted an average of six people to find an abortionist. In other words, before Roe, abortions were reserved for women who really wanted them and were willing to go to a lot of trouble to get them. This hardly sounds like being "forced."

Legalizing abortion only changed two things: it became easier to browbeat women into abortions, and abortionists no longer went to jail for botching them. Only an abortionist could consider that an improvement.
Letter 274

And while I agree that no woman should have to suffer such risks and indignities, I need to point out two things: legal abortion is no better, and it is pro-choicers, not pro-lifers, who submit women to such ordeals. Pro-lifers offer help raising the child or placing her for adoption. Pro-choicers offer a cannula or a coat hanger.
Some choice.
Letter 278

Your reasoning is along the lines that • "The smoking of crack cocaine should be legalized because, after all, the poor cannot afford such a glamorous drug as can the rich [or to legalize it would make it controlled and safer for the addict as they wouldn't have to hit the streets to find the drug]."

Answering Pro-abortion Rhetoric​

First of all I NEVER said that abortion never kills women today. I realize that in some rare cases even an abortion proformed by the most experienced doctors in the best settings can sometimes lead to death. The same goes with many major surgeries. But you wouldn;t have open heart surgery banned because some people have died on the operating table would you? Also even though I do believe there was plenty of backalley abortions done *though probably most were done in home by the woman herself* the idea that prochoicers think that the streets were lined with bodies or whatever is a bit silly.

I wonder though what sort of women were interviewed? I mean you might find a bit difference of answers for instance from a middle or upper middle class woman who had the money to see doctors and if need be travel to get her abortion and a poor woman who likely would not have the money to consult several doctors and travel if need be. But could one argue that in either case that they still had a choice? yes they did. But then one has to askes themselves if they had a choice why did some women risk their lives? And yes the numbers might not be as high as some people claim but that doesnt mean there still wasn;t some women who didn;t have the money who ended up proforming some abortion on themselves.

And no prochoicers offer the choice of adoption and help to care for the baby as well as the option of terminating the pregnancy. Prolifers only offer the first two choices.

 

[Calliso]

I was talking about PRE Roe v Wade...and the incidental death is higher with 'safe' procedures...they just dont want you to know that. Its political...its for monetary capitalism.

Its for pocket lining at campaign time.

Sterile?

So you think the risk far out weighs the choice to not sleep around or kill a child?

Well, maybe you should talk to the family members who lost their daughters to these 'safe' procedures.
Look at how young they were...how healthy they were with their lives ahead of them....
Killed by something they choose.

And it could have been avoided if they just gave the child up for adoption.

They, nor their baby, can come back.
But...eh, they are just incidental deaths... who cares?

Where is the compassion?

Well first of all let me ask a question? Why do so many prolifers assume that women that get abortions must be sleeping around with every man willynilly? Did it ever occur to you all these may be married women or women with with only one sexual partner?

Yes but that would mean forcing them to carry the pregnancy. And pregnancy and birth have their own risks too! including...DEATH. So when you think of it either way these poor young women face the possiblity of dying no matter what choice they make.

And I do care about those women that die donlt assume that I donlt. But a small amount of people dying from a procedure does not equal it shoudl be banned..otherwise we wouldn;t have many life saving surgeries available.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

you're little "fact" thing is bogus... it claims chiuldren are murdered by abortion, which is blatantly false. Murder is a LEGAL term that means UNLAWFUL KILLING, since abortion is legal, it can NOT be murder.

Anyone who attempts to use emotionally charged language to further their position makes me immediately suspect their motives.

Not to mention that "debate by bumper sticker" makes baby Jesus cry.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

The goal of this statement is to implant an image in the public's mind of the countryside being littered with the bodies of women slaughtered by botched abortions. Classic emotional blackmail.

refering to abortion as "murder" is emotional blackmail

 

[BAFRIEND]

But for all the cheering for safe conditions, one would really think they were safe.
FAR from it.

50% of all patients die in an abortion. The baby always dies.

 

[JoabAnias]

you're little "fact" thing is bogus... it claims chiuldren are murdered by abortion, which is blatantly false. Murder is a LEGAL term that means UNLAWFUL KILLING, since abortion is legal, it can NOT be murder.

Anyone who attempts to use emotionally charged language to further their position makes me immediately suspect their motives.

Not to mention that "debate by bumper sticker" makes baby Jesus cry.

What do you care what makes baby Jesus cry?

"Thou Shalt NOT Kill" IS GODS Law.

Secular authority does not abrogate GODS law!

Rom 3:31 Then is the Law annulled through faith? Let it not be! But we establish Law.

Obviously you are ignorant of what abortion really is and don't care enough to find out. How sad.

Show the American people what an abortion is!​

Peace.

 

[BAFRIEND]

refering to abortion as "murder" is emotional blackmail

Tell that to 50 million dead children.

Honestly, if having someone suck the brains out of your child's head with a vacuum aint gonna give you a rise... then I don't think word play is gonna get er done either.

 

[Tenebrae]

50% of all patients die in an abortion. The baby always dies.

Source please?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

What do you care what makes baby Jesus cry?

"Thou Shalt NOT Kill" IS GODS Law.

Secular authority does not abrogate GODS law!

Rom 3:31 Then is the Law annulled through faith? Let it not be! But we establish Law.

Obviously you are ignorant of what abortion really is and don't care enough to find out. How sad.

Show the American people what an abortion is!​

Peace.

Thou shalt not MURDER, is, actually, the commandment I think you are thinking of. The Bible actually mandates several occasions when it is OK to kill, including killing people.

It also specifies that the punishment for causing a miscarriage should be different to the punishment for killing a person, so even the Bible disagrees with you.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Tell that to 50 million dead children.

Honestly, if having someone suck the brains out of your child's head with a vacuum aint gonna give you a rise... then I don't think word play is gonna get er done either.

ah yes, the much vaunted "partial birth" abortion... all 50 million examples of terminations are cases where evil abortionists have sucked the brains out of otherwise fully viable, happy, sentient, giggling bubbling little loveable babies *rolls eyes*

 

[JoabAnias]

Abortion breaks all the commandments.

The Eighth Commandment says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." This is not only a matter of falsely testifying that somebody did something wrong, as we see, for example, in the Old Testament story of Susanna (Daniel 13). This commandment also forbids false testimony about who our neighbor is, about what value and dignity our neighbor possesses, and about what our obligations to our neighbor are.

The question in abortion is not only, "When does life begin?" but more deeply, "What does life mean?" What are the implications of being human? Is human life disposable when it is unwanted, or inconvenient, or not recognized by a government? Is there anything about human existence that cries out for recognition and protection apart from what a particular society decides to bestow? What is the truth about humanity? What is the human person destined for? Are we made for the grave or for the skies?

Abortion not only takes a life; it makes a statement about life, and not only about the life it takes, but about the lives of all of us. Abortion says we are disposable. Abortion says our value is determined by others. Abortion says there is no intrinsic dignity in human life that requires its absolute protection, and no destiny that reaches beyond this world or even beyond this Supreme Court.

Do not bear false witness against your neighbor! Abortion lies about the human person. Christ, on the other hand, reveals the truth about human life (see Vatican II, Constitution on the Church in the Modern World #22.) Particularly by His Ascension, He shows that we are made for the heights of heaven, not for the medical waste bag.

"Lord, what is man that You care for him?" (Ps.8:5). The psalmist asked the question, and God Himself answered it in Christ. May our treatment of human life faithfully echo that answer!

 

[JoabAnias]

"The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following....Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74] ).

(1st Century AD)​

The Lord's Teaching to the Heathen by the Twelve Apostles: (Didache).

1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death; and between the two ways there is a great difference.

2 Now, this is the way of life:…

The second commandment of the Teaching: "Do not murder; do not commit adultery"; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; "do not steal"; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. "Do not covet your neighbor's property; do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness"; do not slander; do not bear grudges. Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is "a deadly snare." Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action. Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor. Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.

aborted baby photos ​

 

[JoabAnias]

Answering the Theological Case for Abortion Rights: The Bible

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Do not bear false witness against your neighbor! Abortion lies about the human person.

No it doesn't.

You aren't a person until you can be AWARE of being a person. Foetuses aren't.

The Jewish tradition backs this up BTW, maintaining that you aren't a person until you draw your first breath, i.e. abortion is not the same as killing a person.

If you have this bug up you about false witness, maybe you should stop distorting what pro-choice people say and what their motives are, and indeed, what abortion is?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

The closest the Bible ever comes to discussing abortion is when it says that the penalty for causing a miscarriage shall be a fine, IF the father demands it, as opposed to murder, which is a capital crime.

Seems pretty clear the Biblical authoprs did not consider abortion comparable to murder