You can't be both.

[JoabAnias]

foetuses are'nt

Then what are they? Please provide evidence.

If anything, the Bible comes out in favour of abortion.

Do you really believe this? Can you show that from scripture in context to what Jesus teaches?

Peace.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

foetuses are'nt children

opinion

Nope. Explains it this way in the Bible... the Golden rule and all that

So your god is a secular humanist then?

.False. If anything, the Bible comes out in favour of abortion.

Seriously? Are we reading the same bible?

And if I make the same claim?Think about this... do you place the same caveat of consent on ANYTHING else you do? Does getting in a car mean you consent to all possible outcomes of that action? If you are in an accident, does the fact that you gave implied consent mean you don't have the right to try to remedy the damage done?

When I drive in my car I consent to the possibility of being involved in an accident, and if I do cause an accident, I don't kill the other party involved so that the problem just 'goes away'.

I think abortion is a bad idea too. I don't believe this gives me the right to make the decision for others.

Do you think rape is a bad idea? If so, then do you think it should be outlawed also? Same concept.

ABSOLUTELY I BELIEVE THIS! Hand on my heart, swear to God, in my (brief) nursing practice, in all the literature, in all the study groups I've participated in, everything I have seen, read, and heard, leads me to conclude that there are far more abused children/abusive parents than there are women suffering pathological mental trauma from abortion.

But you can't conclude that the children being 'unwanted' is the primary reason for the abuse. Alcoholism and drug addiction I believe are the primary causes.

Yeah, that whole "free will" thing... but even if that doesn't sway you... you claim God is against abortion, thats why we shouldn't do it.

right.

Do you want to stop non-Christians from having access to abortions too?

Sure. I believe abortion is wrong, killing an innocent life before it even gets to see the light of day is wrong no matter what religion you are (or aren't). Christians who are truly holding a close relationship with God are not getting the abortions anyway.

 

[sidnee]

foetuses are'nt children

this is so odd to me, to someone who WANTS a baby the fetus is a child...to someone trying to justify the killing of that very same fetus it is simply a fetus or a blob of cells. A fetus, at any gestational age, if left in the safe walls of the uterus would BECOME a child.

 

[Calliso]

this is so odd to me, to someone who WANTS a baby the fetus is a child...to someone trying to justify the killing of that very same fetus it is simply a fetus or a blob of cells. A fetus, at any gestational age, if left in the safe walls of the uterus would BECOME a child.

Not really true..I would say probably more fetus's are naturally aborted then are ever purposely aborted. I donlt think you can call the Uterus a safe place...

 

[free2be]

Not really true..I would say probably more fetus's are naturally aborted then are ever purposely aborted. I donlt think you can call the Uterus a safe place...

I think "natural" is the key word.

 

[Archivist]

Then what are they? Please provide evidence.

Black's law Dictionary, which is the most widely accepted legal dictionary, does offer "a baby or fetus" as a possible definition for child, but it is not the favored definition ("a person under the age of majority; a person who has not yet reached the age of 14; a boy or a gir; a young person; a son or daughter" all take precedence).

Stedman's Medical Dictionary, which is the leading medical dictionary, does not define child, but does define childhood as "the period of life between infancy and puberty."

 

[sidnee]

yeah, that.

I think "natural" is the key word.

Not really true..I would say probably more fetus's are naturally aborted then are ever purposely aborted. I donlt think you can call the Uterus a safe place...

the ones who are naturally aborted generally have a genetic type issue and are simply not capable of staying alive...in abortion this isnt the case.

 

[anonymous1515]

Maybe not. There could be environmental conditions in the uterus that contribute to the death of a zygote or fetus. Genetics does not always account for it, and in many cases it is quite hard to tease apart the effects of genetics and environmental conditions without doing alot of genetic analyses.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Then what are they? .

To me they are babies. Preborn babies I guess you would call them.

Would the term 'preborn babies' be agreeable to all sides, I wonder?

Here's an interesting definition straight out of George Orwell's 1984.

Unperson - Person that has been erased from existence

That seems like a good definition for an aborted baby.

Do all sides agree to that?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Then what are they? Please provide evidence.



Do you really believe this? Can you show that from scripture in context to what Jesus teaches?

Peace.

What evidence would you accept that Foetuses asren't children?

Biological or traditional?

And are we only accepting what Jesus preached now? Pretty sure he never mentioned the subject of abortion.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Do you think rape is a bad idea? If so, then do you think it should be outlawed also? Same concept.

No its not, because rape involves an assault on the rights of a sentient person, abortion does not.

We've been through this. Actions against sentient people will never be comparable to actiona against non-sentient organisms.

But you can't conclude that the children being 'unwanted' is the primary reason for the abuse. Alcoholism and drug addiction I believe are the primary causes.

There is very rarely any one cause... however, the most common excuse of an abusive parent or partner? "I never wanted the damn kid in the first place"

Christians who are truly holding a close relationship with God are not getting the abortions anyway.

When I did my Maternity prac... there were quite a few Christians I saw come through for D&Cs... bu then I guess they weren't TRUE Christians, huh?

Sure. I believe abortion is wrong, killing an innocent life before it even gets to see the light of day is wrong no matter what religion you are (or aren't).

So you want to force non-Christians to live by your personal interpretation of the Bible? Excuse me, but isn't that kind of... inquisitorial?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

this is so odd to me, to someone who WANTS a baby the fetus is a child...to someone trying to justify the killing of that very same fetus it is simply a fetus or a blob of cells. A fetus, at any gestational age, if left in the safe walls of the uterus would BECOME a child.

Thats totally false.

80% of fertilised eggs never come to term, and 20 to 25% of implanted zygotes will end their pregnancy through a spontaneous abortion.

Your claim that these natural abortions occur because none of these foetuses were genetically viable is utterly false too. There are a great many women (the clinical term is "habitual aborter") who's uteris simply will not allow a foetus to remain attached to the uterine wall, no matter the health or otherwise of the foetus. This is, in fact, one of the leading causes of requests for surrogacy.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

To me they are babies. Preborn babies I guess you would call them.

Would the term 'preborn babies' be agreeable to all sides, I wonder?

Here's an interesting definition straight out of George Orwell's 1984.

Unperson - Person that has been erased from existence

That seems like a good definition for an aborted baby.

Do all sides agree to that?

no.

"Person" implies sentience, which foetuses ain't got.

 

[Annabel Lee]

no.

"Person" implies sentience, which foetuses ain't got.

The first two definitions for PERSON on dictionary.com

1.a human being, whether man, woman, or child
2.a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

The first two definitions for SENTIENT on same site.

1.having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.

Do you believe the infant becomes sentient upon birth?
____________________

Or maybe when they have the ability to feel pain. I myself do not know when sentience begins but I have read that unborn babies dream at some point.

I wonder what they dream about.

What I would truly like to know is when unborn babies feel pain. If science were to suddenly discover that they perceive pain early in the gestational period, I have faith that the abortion rates would go down drastically.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Do you believe the infant becomes sentient upon birth?

In fact, TRUE sentience probably does not eventuate until a few months AFTER birth, but I'm happy to take the side of caution and say that any foetus with a reasonable expectation of viability can be classified as "potentially sentient".

Sentience is a quality of personhood.

I wonder what they dream about.

Abstract colours and patterns supposedly. (How they know this, I don't know)

What I would truly like to know is when unborn babies feel pain. If science were to suddenly discover that they perceive pain early in the gestational period, I have faith that the abortion rates would go down drastically.

Actually... we know that foetuses don't feel pain uintil quite late... the evidence for this is pre-natal operations... there are several quite complex microsurgical interventions performed on in utero foetuses these days... surgery that is performed without anaesthetic. If similar procedures were conducted on an infant or baby without anaesthetic, the pain would kill the child. However, the foetuses who undergo such surgery do not appear to have this adverse experience.

Please note, there is a distinct difference between pain, response to stimulus, and AWARENESS of pain.

Venus fly traps respond to stimulus, insects and crustaceans appear to feel pain, but to be genuinely aware of pain, all indications are that you need to be a chordate or better. That said, I do not support unnecesary infliction of pain on any organism.

 

[NoDoubt]

In fact, TRUE sentience probably does not eventuate until a few months AFTER birth

Do you believe that sentience is what makes us human? Thanks.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Do you believe that sentience is what makes us human? Thanks.

Depends what you mean "human"...

genetics is what makes us "human", sentience is what makes humans "special"

 

[anonymous1515]

Depends what you mean "human"...

genetics is what makes us "human", sentience is what makes humans "special"

We're on the same page.

 

[NoDoubt]

Depends what you mean "human"...

genetics is what makes us "human", sentience is what makes humans "special"

So a newborn baby is not "sentient" therefore he/she is not special. Correct? Just trying to figure out something here.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

So a newborn baby is not "sentient" therefore he/she is not special. Correct? Just trying to figure out something here.

A newborn baby is not sentient. However, to her mother she is probably very special, and, assuming a textbook family, to her father, and her grandparents, siblings, aunts and uncles she is probably very special.

Our interhuman relationships ALSO make us special. Even if, to begin with, they are only one way.

So, its two things that make a human a "person"

1. Self awareness
2. Interpersonal relationships and our place in them.

So hopefully, you now don't have to ask that silly PRATT "Is it OK to kill a newborn" because the answer is "no, presumeably that would be very upsetting to her parents". I assume thats the "something you're trying to work out"?

Further, I'm alrewady on record as sayiong that I'm prepared to err on the side of caution, and judge a foetus sentient from the time it would be considered viable... about 24-6 weeks gestation, give or take.