You can't argue with DNA

[Tree of Life]

Except for the famous example of human Chromosome 2. Which has two telomeric tips smack in the middle of the chromosome - exactly where you would not expect them to be. They are there because the two halves of Chromosome 2 are separate chromosomes in other species of apes. At some point in the distant past, they became fused together in humans.

Interesting story. Is there any evidence that this is true?

The trouble with creationists is that they think, if God did not snap his fingers, and have human beings instantaneously come into the existence, then he could have nothing to do with their creation. The fallacy in that ought to be obvious to anybody.

I'm not a creationist and I believe that theistic evolution is a biblically warranted view. I do doubt, however, that there is as good reasons to believe in evolution as some insist that there are. I'm simply looking for reasons to believe the claims. No thanks on the creationist bashing. If you can only defend your claim by criticizing your opponent then that is signs of a weak claim.

 

[lesliedellow]

Why would nested hierarchy be "unexpected" in the case of special creation?

Because there is no reason why God would want to create the appearance of hierarchy if none exists. Unless you want to come out with the usual creationist, "He did it to test us."

 

[lesliedellow]

Interesting story. Is there any evidence that this is true?

The evidence is in the observable presence of the said chromosomes, and in the observable presence of telomeric tips where they ought not to be.

 

[HitchSlap]

Interesting story. Is there any evidence that this is true?



I'm not a creationist and I believe that theistic evolution is a biblically warranted view. I do doubt, however, that there is as good reasons to believe in evolution as some insist that there are. I'm simply looking for reasons to believe the claims. No thanks on the creationist bashing. If you can only defend your claim by criticizing your opponent then that is signs of a weak claim.

Yes. Plenty of evidence. Every aspect of evolutionary biology is predicated upon common descent. If you're truly interested in ToE (which I doubt you are), then go to the library and check out at least ten books written by real evolutionary biologists (not creationists with one year of bible school under their belt), and decide for yourself how strong the case for common descent is.

And what makes you think we/me is an opponent. As I've said before, believe what you need to.

 

[Tree of Life]

Because there is no reason why God would want to create the appearance of hierarchy if none exists.

That a hierarchy exists is just fine. Why does this mean common ancestry?

 

[Tree of Life]

The evidence is in the observable presence of the said chromosomes, and in the observable presence of telomeric tips where they ought not to be.

Who says they ought not be there?

Why does their presence imply the rest of the story?

 

[lesliedellow]

That a hierarchy exists is just fine. Why does this mean common ancestry?

Because the "family tree" of species can be reconstructed from the genetic evidence, and it corresponds exactly to the same reconstruction done on the basis of palaeontological evidence.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes. Plenty of evidence. Every aspect of evolutionary biology is predicated upon common descent. If you're truly interested in ToE (which I doubt you are), then go to the library and check out at least ten books written by real evolutionary biologists (not creationists with one year of bible school under their belt), and decide for yourself how strong the case for common descent is.

I don't read creationist literature. I'm fine going and picking up a book. I am disappointed that no representative of evolution here can give me a simple reason to believe!

And what makes you think we/me is an opponent. As I've said before, believe what you need to.

It seems obvious that you consider creationists to be your opponents. If you can only defend your view by criticizing theirs then your view is weak.

 

[Tree of Life]

Because the "family tree" of species can be reconstructed from the genetic evidence

Maybe. But this could also be begging the question. You're reconstructing from evidence something that you assume is already there.

 

[lesliedellow]

Who says they ought not be there?

Because telomeres perform no useful function, except to absorb any damage done to the end of the chromosomes during the process of cell division. They serve no useful purpose in the middle of a chromosome, and they are not found there except in the middle of that one human chromosome.

 

[lesliedellow]

Maybe. But this could also be begging the question. You're reconstructing from evidence something that you assume is already there.

You can't put together a jigsaw puzzle made up of random pieces, unless those pieces originally were part of one whole.

 

[Tree of Life]

You can't put together a jigsaw puzzle made up of random pieces, unless those pieces originally were part of one whole.

Sure. But how is this related?

 

[Tree of Life]

Because telomeres perform no useful function, except to absorb any damage done to the end of the chromosomes during the process of cell division. They serve no useful purpose in the middle of a chromosome, and they are not found there except in the middle of that one human chromosome.

Ok.

So who says they ought not be there?

And how do you know that they serve no useful function?

 

[lesliedellow]

Sure. But how is this related?

You cannot recreate a family tree unless the pieces really do fit together, any more than you can put together a jigsaw puzzle, unless the pieces really do fit together.

 

[Tree of Life]

You cannot recreate a family tree unless the pieces really do fit together, any more than you can put together a jigsaw puzzle, unless the pieces really do fit together.

But your family tree is purely theoretical. It's a nice story that could be one possible explanation of the evidence but there's nothing to suggest that it's the only explanation or even the most probable explanation.

 

[lesliedellow]

Ok.

So who says they ought not be there?

And how do you know that they serve no useful function?

Because if telomeres in the middle of a chromosome served any useful purpose, they would appear there more often, instead of just that once.

 

[Tree of Life]

Because if telomeres in the middle of a chromosome served any useful purpose, they would appear there more often, instead of just that once.

How do you know that?

 

[lesliedellow]

But your family tree is purely theoretical. It's a nice story that could be one possible explanation of the evidence but there's nothing to suggest that it's the only explanation or even the most probable explanation.

Before somebody went there, the Moon might have been yellow because it was made of cheese, rather than because it reflected sunlight. You can always dream up alternative explanations, but you had better be able to make it sound more likely than the currently accepted explanation.

 

[HitchSlap]

But your family tree is purely theoretical. It's a nice story that could be one possible explanation of the evidence but there's nothing to suggest that it's the only explanation or even the most probable explanation.

 

[loveofourlord]

God choose to make us with 2 arms 2 legs ect.... and he made monkeys similar. DNA is a blueprint and if the creatures are alike the plans are alike as well. if 2 houses look similar of course their Blueprints will look alike, this points to the same architect not a "common ancestor"

Except when the same flaw is shown on multiple species and none effecting genetic differences. and things such as ERV's chromosonal flips and such. The same errors in multiple species. The amount of simularities go beyond things like same disigner same design. It goes down to using same parts to build a pickup truck as lambergeni but then sticking all the parts not used haphazardly in the trunk and such. These things don't make any sense within a design point of view.

For instance humans contain the remnants for many smell genes we don't use, dolphins do too except they don't use smell genes that other mamals do.