• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

You can't argue with DNA

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,689
52,518
Guam
✟5,131,435.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I got news for you dear one, I've been called a liar a fool and worse on here.
Those are to be expected --- I've been called those as well.

The L Ron Hubbard one kinda stung, though --- ^_^
 
Upvote 0

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,441
2,688
United States
✟216,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Those are to be expected --- I've been called those as well.

The L Ron Hubbard one kinda stung, though --- ^_^
You can't tell the dentist you've been flossing when you really haven't. He's going to call you a liar.
 
Upvote 0

gaara4158

Gen Alpha Dad
Aug 18, 2007
6,441
2,688
United States
✟216,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No doubt the dentist will write in your documentation that you had 2. :p
Yes, and not to lie, but to show future dentists that the other 18 fillings were embedded there already without a history of cavities!
 
Upvote 0

Cabal

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2007
11,592
476
39
London
✟37,512.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Yes, and not to lie, but to show future dentists that the other 18 fillings were embedded there already without a history of cavities!

I admit defeat in face of your superior analogising abilities! ;)
 
Upvote 0

Pete Harcoff

PeteAce - In memory of WinAce
Jun 30, 2002
8,304
72
✟9,884.00
Faith
Other Religion
You could teach genetics without natural history and you would be better off without Darwinism leaching off of it. This isn't about creationism vs science, I've never heard a creationist say a negative thing about Mendelian Genetics. The problem is that Darwinism has been unnaturally blended with Genetics and this kind of intellectual comingling could only have one purpose, poison the well for Christians. There is a simple reason for wanting to do this, it's because Christian scholars dominated European academics and sciences for a thousand years. The modern secular clerics attack theistic reasoning because they are threatened by it.

Or, void of paranoid creationist conspiracy theories, there's the fact that evolution is a useful science...

You keep telling yourself it's a conspiracy, though. :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Tomk80

Titleless
Apr 27, 2004
11,570
429
45
Maastricht
Visit site
✟36,582.00
Faith
Agnostic
That's not just the popular press it's a common homology argument that never impressed me in the first place. Sure it's not a base to base comparison since it's a gap in one that exists in the other genome. The substitutions and indels are really just differences and I never said the scientists were wrong.
No, it's not a common homology argument. You have no idea what the argument regarding homology is, apparently.

What it means is that the old saw of 98% is wrong.
No, as has already been explained to you again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again is that 98% for base substitutions is still correct.
Now as to what implications this might have for human/chimp common ancestry I'm thinking, not much. TOE has demonstrated again and again that no matter what the actual evidence universal common descent cannot be questioned.
It has nothing to do with no questioning the evidence. It has to do with what kind of evidence supports the argument in the first place, something you have yet to come to terms with. You are building a strawman of the argument for common descent.

We are told that our dna is virtually identical and it's not.
Point 1 that shows you have no idea what you are talking about.
We are told the human brain and the chimpanzees is virtually identical even though the human brain is three times the size.
Point 2 that shows you have no idea what you are talking about.
We are told that this all happens over millions of years and yet it happens suddenly a couple of millions or years ago with no explanation for the molecular mechanisms responsible.
Point 3 that shows you have no idea what you are talking about. You're out.

Everytime and chimpanzee skull is dug up in Africa or Asia it's immediately celebrated as one of our ancestors. The myth of the stone age ape man continues.
The skulls of human ancestors are not chimpansee skulls. Even a casual glance at the skull of a chimpansee and that of a human ancestor shows that. You have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Upvote 0

MoonLancer

The Moon is a reflection of the MorningStar
Aug 10, 2007
5,765
166
✟29,524.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Everytime and chimpanzee skull is dug up in Africa or Asia it's immediately celebrated as one of our ancestors. The myth of the stone age ape man continues.

mark, want to play a game? please list which of these skulls are human, and which of these are chimpanzee skulls

fossil-hominid-skulls.jpg


for reference, this is what a chimp skull looks like.

primate_chimp.jpg


chimp and human skull side by side

DK004737.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Hespera

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2008
7,237
201
usa
✟8,860.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
Well, I dunno. He DID say "Everytime and chimpanzee skull is dug up....."

If that were part of a legal document the lawyers would have a grand old time arguing what if anything that means. "Everytime" isnt even a word, and the "and" makes no sense.

So there is plenty of room for getting out of the responsibility for saying something false.

If he would care to amend it so that is reads "Every time that a chimpanzee skull is found....." then we'd know what he meant.

If he then would say that it is just being sarcastic with no claim that there is any literal truth to it, then we could just drop it with the request that he not say things he doesnt mean. It does cause a lot of confusion when people dont just stick to plain statements.

So far though, he seems to want to stand by it (whatever it is that he acutally meant by what he said)

So Mark- would you like to state in correct English what you meant by that statement? Hate to call you a humbug over a mere misunderstanding.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
You don't seem to understand, I have studied this in depth for years. I am not your intellectual inferior and your condesending attitude betrays a false confidence in your false assumptions.

Well, I dunno. He DID say "Everytime and chimpanzee skull is dug up....."

If that were part of a legal document the lawyers would have a grand old time arguing what if anything that means. "Everytime" isnt even a word, and the "and" makes no sense. So there is plenty of room for getting out of the responsibility for saying something false. If he would care to amend it so that is reads "Every time that a chimpanzee skull is found....." then we'd know what he meant.

If he then would say that it is just being sarcastic with no claim that there is any literal truth to it, then we could just drop it with the request that he not say things he doesnt mean. It does cause a lot of confusion when people dont just stick to plain statements. So far though, he seems to want to stand by it (whatever it is that he acutally meant by what he said)

So Mark- would you like to state in correct English what you meant by that statement? Hate to call you a humbug over a mere misunderstanding.

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” (Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species)

The Scriptures are clear that Adam was created and that we all are his descendants, the Old Testament narratives are confirmed unequivocally in the New Testament. Secular scientists and academic professionals tell us that we are actually descendant from Stone age (Paleolithic/Pleistocene period) ape men living eastern equatorial Africa roughly 2 million years ago (mya). What they base this on is a large collection of human and ape fossils and stone artifacts found primarily in northern Kenya (Lake Turkana sites) and Oldovia Gorge in northern Tanzania. Supposedly driven by the climatic changes of the Ice Age ape men had developed a bipedal gait (walking upright as opposed to knuckle dragging), a precision opposable thumb and had begun the threefold expansion of the human brain in size dramatically overhauling it in form and function, as well as a host of other features. The molecular mechanisms capable of accomplishing this dramatic evolutionary feat remain a complete mystery to the scientists who study it, yet none dare question it as fact.

Every time a fossilized skull of an ape in Africa is unearthed it is immediately celebrated as one of our ancestors. To date none of the skulls dug up in Africa are identified as Chimpanzee ancestors even though they about the same size, except that some of them are larger. This has needlessly complicated human and natural history with endless speculation as to the behavior, environmental challenges, and beneficial affects of evolutionary improvements. The law of parsimony (Ockham's razor) is a rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. Since the molecular basis for human evolution is unknown the miraculous interpolation remains the simplest explanation consistent with normative Biology. Using a combination of Genomic comparisons, Paleontology, and Biblical Apologetics a more comprehensive understanding of our origins and lineage comes into view. I can show that normative evolutionary mechanisms for adaptations have failed to demonstrate the molecular mechanisms responsible for the human brains meteoric expansion in size and complexity.

With a cranial capacity nearly three times that of the chimpanzee the molecular basis for this giant leap in evolutionary history is still almost, completely unknown. Changes in brain related genes are characterized by debilitating disease and disorder and yet our decent from a common ancestor with the chimpanzee would have had to be marked by a massive overhaul of brain related genes. I propose that a critical examination of common descent in the light of modern insights into molecular mechanisms of inheritance is the single strongest argument against human/ape common ancestry

nature01495-f2.2.jpg
mark, want to play a game? please list which of these skulls are human, and which of these are chimpanzee skulls

This hall of skulls jpg is used by the TO propaganda to create a homology illusion. When you look closer at the actuall skulls, and I have, the real differences start to jump out at you. If you only knew how many times I have debunked this empty attempt at viable proof.

(A) Pan troglodytes, chimpanzee, modern
Chimpanzee of course, see image above for specific morphological differences.

(B) Australopithecus africanus, STS 5, 2.6 My
Australopithecus africanus with a cranial capacity of ~480cc lived 3.3-2.5 mya. Chimpanzee ancestor
(C) Australopithecus africanus, STS 71, 2.5 My
Aspecies that exhibits many cranial features which are reminiscent of our ape ancestry, such as a forward protruding (prognathic) face, a "U-shaped" palate (with the cheek teeth parallel in rows to each other similar to an ape) and not the parabolic shape of a modern human, and a small neurocranium (brain case) that averages only 430cc in size (not significantly larger than a modern chimpanzee). Chimpanzee Ancestor
(D) Homo habilis, KNM-ER 1813, 1.9 My
Louis Leaky read a children's books at an early age called, 'Days before History', about Tigi who meets a spear maker, learns how to make fire and hunts Mammoths. According to his sister Julia, "he lived that book, it became his Bible really". He began collecting things his Kikuyu friends called, 'spirit razors' thinking them to be the product of Stone Age artisans. Stone tool artifacts would come to be an integral part his search for and theory of earliest man, now known as Homo habilis (handy man). From the Smithsonian's article on Homo habilis:

An arbitrary lower limit had been set between 700cc and 800cc as the cutoff for the genus Homo. With an estimated cranial capacity of 680cc, Leakey and his colleagues chose to lower this number to 600cc...they chose a behavior- the ability to make stone tools-to help place OH 7 in Homo. This point relied on stone tools found in the same geologic horizon as the fossils.​

Raymond Dart who's Taung Child had long been considered a chimpanzee skull came the suggestion for a name for the stone age ape man myth, Homo habilis. Chimpanzee ancestor.
(E) Homo habilis, OH24, 1.8 My
The slightly small cranial capacity (just under 600cc) is attributed to this distortion. The face of the individual is prognathic (projects forward under the nose: see the third photograph down). Chimpanzee ancestor
Chimpanzee ancestor
(F) Homo rudolfensis, KNM-ER 1470, 1.8 My
With a brain size of 775cc it is dated to be anywhere from 2.6 to 2.9 mya. Notice that while it is much older the Homo habilis it is over 100cc larger. This indicates to me that ape ancestors were considerable larger then modern ones. This trend in overall evolutionary patterns is further indicated in the neanderthals who had cranial capacities 10% larger then our own.
(G) Homo erectus, Dmanisi cranium D2700, 1.75 My
Homo Erectus Skulls:
The most impornat of the Homo erectus is Turkana Boy, let me start by saying they are for the most part, Human ancestors
  • Hexian 412,000 years old had a cranial capacity of 1,025cc.
  • ZKD III (Skull E I) 423,000 years old had a cranial capacity of 915cc.
  • ZKD II (Skull D I) 585,000 years old had a cranial capacity of 1,020cc
  • ZKD X (Skull L I) 423,000 years ago had a cranial capacity of 1,225cc
  • ZKD XI (Skull L II) 423,000 years ago had a cranial capacity of 1,015cc
  • ZKD XII (Skull L III) 423,000 years ago had a cranial capacity of 1,030cc
  • Sm 3 >100,000 years ago had a cranial 917cc

(AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 2006)

(H) Homo ergaster (early H. erectus), KNM-ER 3733, 1.75 My
The cranial capacity is well below average but none the less well within the range of human variance. KNM-WT 15000 (Turkana Boy) 1.5 million years ago had a cranial capacity of 880cc (Endocranial Cast of Hexian Homo erectus from South China, (AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 2006)

Human ancestor

(I) Homo heidelbergensis, "Rhodesia man," 300,000 - 125,000 y
(J) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Ferrassie 1, 70,000 y
(K) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Chappelle-aux-Saints, 60,000 y
(L) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Le Moustier, 45,000 y
(M) Homo sapiens sapiens, Cro-Magnon I, 30,000 y
(N) Homo sapiens sapiens, modern

All Human

I like this game, now it's my turn to play. What is the molecular mechanism responsible for this giant leap?

Our ancestors to have evolved it would have required a dramatic adaptive evolution of the size just under 2 mya sandwiched between two long periods of relative stasis. One such gene would have been the HARf regulatory gene involved in the early development of the human neocortex from 7 to 19 gestational weeks. With only two substitutions allowed since the common ancestor of the of 310 mya the divergence between humans and chimpanzees indicates 18 substitutions as early as 2 mya. (see An RNA gene expressed during cortical development evolved rapidly in humans)

While your googleing aimlessly I can show you where the scientists who discovered this regulatory gene are looking for more accelerated regions:

Comparative genomics allow us to search the human genome for segments that were extensively changed in the last ~5 million years since divergence from our common ancestor with chimpanzee, but are highly conserved in other species and thus are likely to be functional. We found 202 genomic elements that are highly conserved in vertebrates but show evidence of significantly accelerated substitution rates in human. These are mostly in non-coding DNA, often near genes associated with transcription and DNA binding. Resequencing confirmed that the five most accelerated elements are dramatically changed in human but not in other primates, with seven times more substitutions in human than in chimp. The accelerated elements, and in particular the top five, show a strong bias for adenine and thymine to guanine and cytosine nucleotide changes and are disproportionately located in high recombination and high guanine and cytosine content environments near telomeres, suggesting either biased gene conversion or isochore selection. In addition, there is some evidence of directional selection in the regions containing the two most accelerated regions. A combination of evolutionary forces has contributed to accelerated evolution of the fastest evolving elements in the human genome. Forces Shaping the Fastest Evolving Regions in the Human Genome
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hespera

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2008
7,237
201
usa
✟8,860.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
You don't seem to understand, I have studied this in depth for years. I am not your intellectual inferior and your condesending attitude betrays a false confidence in your false assumptions.



“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” (Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species)


The molecular mechanisms capable of accomplishing this dramatic evolutionary feat remain a complete mystery to the scientists who study it, yet none dare question it as fact.

Every time a fossilized skull of an ape in Africa is unearthed it is immediately celebrated as one of our ancestors. To date none of the skulls dug up in Africa are identified as Chimpanzee ancestors



0


It doesnt really matter how many years a person claims to have studied something if they didnt learn much.

With regard to condesencion, read back and see who started in on name calling and condesencion. If you dont like it dont do it. Dont call names, that is for grade school, please.


All your assumptions are false, which of course is the source of your false confidence. You start out trying to prove a myth, that makes it tough.


Moving from false assumptions to false statements of fact we have:
"Everytime and chimpanzee skull is dug up in Africa or Asia..." QUOTE

I see you fixed your spelling and now say "every time" rather than everytime" and changed your story so that now it is "every time an APE" (rather than chimpanzee); so good, you corrected that falsehood. And changed if from "dug up" to "fossilized".



You persist in others, such as that ALL fossilized ape skulls are taken as human ancestors, where a number of hominid types and other apes have very clearly not been classified that way. Collections have lots of them, and there are plenty of research papers. Why are these things your years and years of study missed?





As for this....“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” (Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species)


I agree. Just, nobody in the world wide conspiracy of narrow minded atheistic rats-in-a-maze, devil controlled SCIENTISTS, all of whom have a secret way of identifying creationists so they can reject their work, none of whom "dare" to challenge the (imagined by you) orthodoxy seems to think anyone has even come close.


How about this. Instead of your big document dump of mixed preaching, pseudoscience, half facts, personal remarks, and outright fabrications, why dont you just come up with one little fact? Boil it down to one uncluttered idea. Can you do that?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
nature01495-f2.2.jpg

It doesnt really matter how many years a person claims to have studied something if they didnt learn much.

It does not matter how scientific you think you are if you don't read the scientific literature pertaining to the knowledge you pretend to have.

With regard to condesencion, read back and see who started in on name calling and condesencion. If you dont like it dont do it. Dont call names, that is for grade school, please.

Did you miss the carefully prepared post with detailed specifics with regards to the actual topic of the thread. Because all you are doing now is making personal remarks in these relentless ad hominem attacks that would seem to be all you do on here.


All your assumptions are false, which of course is the source of your false confidence. You start out trying to prove a myth, that makes it tough.

First of all if I'm making an a priori assumption you went right past the part where you actually identify it, unlike me. I told you exactly what assumptions and myths I was talking about and you just simply mimicked what I said with childish mockery. That's something you should have outgrown by now unless you are in your early teens.

Moving from false assumptions to false statements of fact we have:
"Everytime and chimpanzee skull is dug up in Africa or Asia..."

Show me one example of a chimpanzee skull that has not been identified as one of our ancestors. You want to move onto facts. FACT, there are no chimpanzee ancestors represented in the natural history museums during the period ranging from 4mya to modern times. Prove me wrong or eat your cake without complaining you don't have any.

I see you fixed your spelling and now say "every time" rather than everytime" and changed your story so that now it is "every time an APE" (rather than chimpanzee); so good, you corrected that falsehood. And changed if from "dug up" to "fossilized".

When I said 'APE' I was mistaken, there are gorrila fossils being dug up from time to time. As far as the pedantic semantical attempt at an attack it's as weak as the rest of you ad hominem attacks.

You persist in others, such as that ALL fossilized ape skulls are taken as human ancestors, where a number of hominid types and other apes have very clearly not been classified that way. Collections have lots of them, and there are plenty of research papers. Why are these things your years and years of study missed?

Before I waste my time making a detailed retort to this flaggrant flame answer a single question. What is the most distinct difference between a chimpanzee and gorrilla skull?

If you don't know that much I might just as well just trade flames with you since you are good for nothing else.


As for this....“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” (Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species)


That's Charles Darwin, not me.


I agree. Just, nobody in the world wide conspiracy of narrow minded atheistic rats-in-a-maze, devil controlled SCIENTISTS, all of whom have a secret way of identifying creationists so they can reject their work, none of whom "dare" to challenge the (imagined by you) orthodoxy seems to think anyone has even come close.


Creationists don't get publish and the few ID scientists who have been published were ruined in academia unless they had tenure.

How about this. Instead of your big document dump of mixed preaching, pseudoscience, half facts, personal remarks, and outright fabrications, why dont you just come up with one little fact? Boil it down to one uncluttered idea. Can you do that?

How about you actually read the previous post, research the actual fossils and make some intelligent remarks about the actual facts concerning them?

You want details, I give you details and you ignore them. You want fact, I give you facts and you ignore them. You want scientific evidence regarding my conclusion that the stone age ape man myth is pure fabrication and supposition and you ignore the detailed, well researched and carefully prepared response. If return for all my hard work I get the half baked, childish rants that do not pertain to anything remotely scientific and certainly not relevant to the homology argument in the OP. Typical! Every thread has someone like you coming in and derailing it before anything of substance can be discussed.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hespera

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2008
7,237
201
usa
✟8,860.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
Show me one example of a chimpanzee skull that has not been identified as one of our ancestors. You want to move onto facts. FACT, there are no chimpanzee ancestors represented in the natural history museums during the period ranging from 4mya to modern times. Prove me wrong or eat your cake without complaining you don't have any.


When I said 'APE' I was mistaken, there are gorrila fossils being dug up from time to time. As far as the pedantic semantical attempt at an attack it's as weak as the rest of you ad hominem attacks.

Before I waste my time making a detailed retort to this flaggrant flame answer a single question. What is the most distinct difference between a chimpanzee and gorrilla skull?


Creationists don't get publish and the few ID scientists who have been published were ruined in academia unless they had tenure.


Have a nice day :wave:
Mark

You were saying something about all your hard work?
Here is your chimp, took about five seconds.

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050831/full/news050829-10.html

You were mistaken when you said chimpanzee, then you changed it to "ape" but you are still mistaken. A lot of ape skulls of various kinds have been found. Including of course, Homo species.


Im not a primate osteologist, nor are you.. As for gorilla and chimp, I would have to look it up. Obviously there is a size difference. Seems to me the gorilla has a sagittal crest and the chimp doesnt, or its greatly reduced. I would expect several other differences, as between any two different but related genera. A badger skull is different from a skunk skull. What is your point about that? If it seems important I can look it up. They may even have specimens over at the museum on campus.

If a creationist did some good research he could get it published.
As for ID scientists, (if there is such a thing) whose career was ruined because of publishing something... do you have actual examples of that?

In a person wants to publish a research paper, they need to do good research that has solid data. If an "ID scientist" published something he could not back up then it may be that he, like anyone else who does sloppy work, found that that they did their career no favours.

Do you have examples, data that is, to back your claim about ruined careers?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AirPo

with a Touch of Grey
Oct 31, 2003
26,363
7,214
61
✟176,857.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Creationists don't get publish and the few ID scientists who have been published were ruined in academia unless they had tenure.
Just like Linus's chance at becoming class president was ruined when he decided to discuss the Great Pumpkin.
 
Upvote 0

BananaSlug

Life is an experiment, experience it!
Aug 26, 2005
2,454
106
41
In a House
✟25,782.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
We have plenty of evidence of "complex" organs evolving from simpler organs. Some of this evidence includes looking at the organs from different creatures. Take the eye for example:
79543-004-C3F00EE8.jpg

All of the above eyes not only show how the eye evolved but are still in existence because we can find organisms today that still have them!

The molecular mechanisms capable of accomplishing this dramatic evolutionary feat remain a complete mystery to the scientists who study it, yet none dare question it as fact.

Wrong. Researchers say they may have found the missing link to this change in a strand of DNA. Specifically, it is a mutation in a gene that controls muscle development. The mutation just may have caused ancestral jaws to become smaller and weaker over time, eventually making room for a bigger, more complex brain.

"Around the lab, we jokingly call this the 'room for thought' mutation," said Dr. Hansell Stedman, an associate professor of surgery at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine.
"We're not saying this mutation alone defines us as Homo sapiens, but the timing of the loss of chewing strength with the increase in cranial capacity is very intriguing."
The researchers are among hundreds around the globe making comparisons between the human gene map and those of other animals, particularly chimpanzees. The Penn scientists' discovery, described Thursday in the journal Nature, grew out of research into the genetic roots for muscular dystrophy, a muscle-wasting disease.
Stedman, Penn cell biologist Nancy Minugh Purvis and their colleagues were looking at a section of what they thought was "junk" DNA. However, they noticed a similarity with genes known to control production of a protein that causes skeletal muscles to contract.
It turned out that a particular gene had a flaw that disables a protein that influences the chewing and biting muscles.
Analysis of human genetic samples from around the world revealed that all people carry this mutation. Non-human primates like macaque monkeys and chimps do not, and they continue to have jaws that are about 10 times more powerful than humans'.
Further genetic sleuthing determined that the mutation appeared in a human ancestor about 2.4 million years ago.
Changes in muscle anatomy are well-known to alter the bones to which they attach. The exciting part of this is the mutation in the gene dates to exactly when this transition occurs in the fossil record.
The Penn researchers argue it is no coincidence that larger braincases and smaller teeth occurred at about the same time.
There is plenty of debate about whether those human ancestors were the first to use tools — or even if there were more than one species of them in East Africa.
But scientists are certain that those early humans were the first in the family tree to have a brain larger — maybe considerably larger — than 500 cubic centimeters. Fossil skulls indicate that, over a few hundred thousand years, the next known human ancestor had a brain as large as 1,000 cubic centimeters. That means this ancestor, Homo erectus, had a braincase notably larger than the teeth and jaws.
The average brain size for people today is about 1,300 cubic centimeters. "We think it's logical to consider that the mutation's decrease in jaw-muscle size and force eliminated stress on the skull, which 'released' an evolutionary constraint on brain growth," Minugh-Purvis said.

Though the lack of this gene did not cause our cranial capacity to grow it did reduce the temporalis muscle size and allowed our brains to grow and our skulls to enlarge because of it.


To date none of the skulls dug up in Africa are identified as Chimpanzee ancestors even though they about the same size, except that some of them are larger.

What? We found chimpanzee fossils in 2005. Most of the fossils are classified as hominids because they show human characteristics such as a parabolic jaw shape and reduced canine/tooth size.

While some behavior can be shown through fossils (diet, etc.) we can gather environmental data from fossils. Human history is actually becoming more clear as we delve into not only the fossil record but other fields such as embryology and genetics which all independently converge on... evolution.

The law of parsimony (Ockham's razor) is a rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly.

Sorry but I don't subscribe to that joke of a law. If it were true, disease would still be caused by spirits because that is simpler an explanation than saying all these different species and strains of bacteria, viruses, and even genetic diseases are the cause.


Since the molecular basis for human evolution is unknown the miraculous interpolation remains the simplest explanation consistent with normative Biology.

Wrong. We've witnessed an lot of genes that is responsible for human development. We don't have tails because the gene for tale development is (usually) switched off and apoptosis reduces the tail that did develop.
We have the gene for tail growth, as is found in all mammals! In fact, the genes that control the development of tails in mice and other vertebrates have been identified (the Wnt-3a and Cdx1 genes). It is now known that down-regulation of the Wnt-3a gene induces apoptosis of tail cells during mouse development, and similar effects are observed in humans. Additionally, researchers have identified a mutant mouse that does not develop a tail, and this phenotype is due to a regulatory mutation that decreases the Wnt-3a gene dosage. Thus, current evidence indicates that the genetic cause of tail loss in the evolution of apes was likely a simple regulatory mutation that slightly decreased Wnt-3a gene dosage. Isn't it funny that God would give us a gene that we don't need?

With a cranial capacity nearly three times that of the chimpanzee the molecular basis for this giant leap in evolutionary history is still almost, completely unknown.

Though we've found nearly complete skulls that show an increase in cranial capacity from the 400cc of australopithecines to the average of 1100 in modern Homo sapiens.


Changes in brain related genes are characterized by debilitating disease and disorder and yet our decent from a common ancestor with the chimpanzee would have had to be marked by a massive overhaul of brain related genes.

Here you go:

Researchers identify genes involved in evolution of brain development

[FONT=verdana, geneva][SIZE=-1]By Catherine Gianaro [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=verdana, geneva]Medical Center Public Affairs[/FONT][/SIZE]
Researchers have identified two genes implicated in the dramatic expansion of the human cerebral cortex—a development considered to be one of the hallmarks of human evolution.
The researchers, led by Bruce Lahn, Assistant Professor in Human Genetics, presented evidence that the pressure of natural selection has led to dramatic evolutionary changes in a gene called Microcephalin and another gene called ASPM. Both are known to control brain size during development in humans.
The researchers decided to explore Microcephalin and ASPM because mutant forms of these genes cause primary microcephaly, a developmental defect that affects humans. This disorder is marked by a severe reduction in the size of the brain, particularly the cerebral cortex—the part of the brain responsible for planning, abstract reasoning and other higher brain functions. The brains of people with primary microcephaly are otherwise normal, and other structures of the body seem unaffected.
The researchers traced the evolution of Microcephalin and ASPM by comparing the genes’ sequences in a range of primates, including humans, as well as non-primate mammals. Specifically, the researchers sequenced the human, chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, gibbon, colobus monkey, squirrel monkey and lemur forms of the genes.
“We chose these species because they were progressively more closely related to humans,” said Lahn. “For example, the closest relatives to humans are chimpanzees, the next closest are gorillas, and the rest go down the ladder to the most primitive.”
The sequence of primates from human to lemur generally represents a progression from the most advanced to the more primitive. Chimpanzees are the closest, living genetic relative of humans, and the lemur represents the most primitive primate, having branched from the primate tree before the evolution of monkeys, apes and humans. To study the evolution of the genes in other mammals, the researchers also sequenced these genes from the dog, cat, cow, sheep, rat and mouse.
For each species, the researchers identified changes in both the Microcephalin and the ASPM genes that altered the structure of the resulting proteins, as well as those that did not affect protein structure. Only those genetic changes that alter protein structure are likely to be subject to evolutionary pressure, Lahn said. Changes in the gene that do not alter the protein indicate the overall mutation rate—the background of random mutations from which evolutionary changes arise. Thus, the ratio of the two types of changes gives a measure of the evolution of the gene under the pressure of natural selection.
The researchers are continuing their studies to determine the biological function of the two genes, to better understand how their mutation could have led to the characteristic enlargement of the human brain. “We want to know when was the last time that the lightning of evolution struck either one of these genes during human evolution,” said Lahn. “Was it 100,000 years ago, or a million years ago or half a million years ago? That would be fascinating to know from the viewpoint of understanding the history of evolution of the human brain.”

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/040429/brainsize.shtml

This hall of skulls jpg is used by the TO propaganda to create a homology illusion. When you look closer at the actuall skulls, and I have, the real differences start to jump out at you. If you only knew how many times I have debunked this empty attempt at viable proof.
I'll just check and see how well you've done:thumbsup:.

(A) Pan troglodytes, chimpanzee, modern
Chimpanzee of course, see image above for specific morphological differences.

(B) Australopithecus africanus, STS 5, 2.6 My Chimpanzee ancestor
(C) Australopithecus africanus, STS 71, 2.5 My Chimpanzee Ancestor

Okay, australopithicines were not chimpanzee ancestors. Claiming such nonsense shows you really can't tell the difference. Let's look at a chimpazee pelvis versus an australopithicine and a modern Homo sapiens.
52957-004-3A06714A.jpg

As you can see, Lucy (an australopithicine), has the short wide hips characteristic of humans in addition to a femur that curves inward to better support an upright body. Chimpanzee hips are long and the legs are straight which makes walking upright for long periods of time very difficult. Australopithicines are definitely not chimpanzee ancestors.


From the Smithsonian's article on Homo habilis:
An arbitrary lower limit had been set between 700cc and 800cc as the cutoff for the genus Homo. With an estimated cranial capacity of 680cc, Leakey and his colleagues chose to lower this number to 600cc...they chose a behavior- the ability to make stone tools-to help place OH 7 in Homo. This point relied on stone tools found in the same geologic horizon as the fossils.
Raymond Dart who's Taung Child had long been considered a chimpanzee skull came the suggestion for a name for the stone age ape man myth, Homo habilis. Chimpanzee ancestor.

First of all, why did chimpanzee ancestors have larger cranial compacities than chimpanzees do today? Is it a result of the fall? Maybe chimpanzees are Cain's descendants since their ancestor Homo habilis was capable of making stone tools and they cannot.

Chimpanzee ancestor
(F) Homo rudolfensis, KNM-ER 1470, 1.8 My

Most scientists do not think Homo rudolfensis was an ancestor of modern Homo sapiens.

I like this game, now it's my turn to play. What is the molecular mechanism responsible for this giant leap?

Here's an example for bipedalism.
Scholars have long thought that bipedality evolved gradually in response to the opening of the savanna. Recently, both parts of this concept have come into question. A variety of benefits of bipedality have been posited as responsible, but a trait can not evolve unless a useful mutation appears. Perhaps we need to stop wondering about selective pressures and consider what kind of mutation might be involved in forming a bipedal pelvis. Work on the evolution of development has shown that there are segmental control genes, alterations in which have large effects. These include the hox genes, of which there are four sets in humans, referred to as the HOX A, B, C, and D sequences. Changes in their activation in embryogenesis alter the identity of vertebrae and limb structure. An alteration in the control region of certain of the distal HOX D genes may well be responsible for the sudden appearance of bipedality by moving the boundary between the lumbar and sacral vertebrae, and so moving the position of the pelvis and lower limb origin. Pongids usually have three lumbar vertebrae; early hominids, 6. Pongids also have 48 chromosomes while we have 46. HOX D is located on our 2nd chromosome, the one that is a fusion of two pongid chromosomes. If that fusion altered the onset of perhaps HOX D 10, so that it switched on a couple of segments later, then the sacrum would form further down the vertebral column and might be shorter. In this paper I look at the chromosomal location of HOX D and examine the likelihood that the fusion of two panid chromosomes could have given rise to alterations in its control resulting in the abrupt appearance of bipedality and accompanying changes in the limbs and in the chela in which the HOX sequences are reused.

Try again. This is fun!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bombila
Upvote 0

atomweaver

Senior Member
Nov 3, 2006
1,706
181
"Flat Raccoon", Connecticut
✟17,891.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Democrat
You don't seem to understand, I have studied this in depth for years. I am not your intellectual inferior and your condesending attitude betrays a false confidence in your false assumptions.



“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” (Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species)

What is the very next line after that quote, Mark?
 
Upvote 0

atomweaver

Senior Member
Nov 3, 2006
1,706
181
"Flat Raccoon", Connecticut
✟17,891.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Democrat
I have nothing to lie to you about,

You ever heard the expression turn the other check, it doesn't mean what you think. When Jesus was on trial before the High Priest he told him plainly that he was the Son of God. When you lied in court (bear false witness) you could be slapped by another wittness but they then had to prove your lieing. When Jesus said this one of the slave smacked him, Jesus just says now present your evidence.

The idea behind turning the other check is to keep telling the truth even when they keep calling you a liar and can't prove it. Now if you want to prove me a liar then show me a single exception or you and your cohort can continue to stroke one anothers egos with your false accusations.

I've played this game before, this ones a slam dunk.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark

Wow. So even when I explicitly say a comment isn't specifically about Mark, Mark makes it specifically about Mark... Nice.
 
Upvote 0