You be the judge!

[Ben johnson]

BTW, Ben. Can you name for me a Calvinist that has renounced the Reformed view as a direct result of this forum (or another)?

I get PMs from people all the time saying how posts like mine have strengthened them in their belief, stronger against Calvinism. When I post the "FORTY VERSES AGAINST ONCE-SAVED-ALWAYS-SAVED", I see that very list show up on others' posts. (And on other message boards...)

Again not-wishing-to-offend, there are a half-dozen "proof-passages" that have been offered, and one of four OSAS understandings must be asserted:
1. They weren't really saved in the FIRST PLACE
2. They may have been "unsteadfast/faithless/deceived/sinning", but were STILL SAVED
3. It's not a REAL narrative, it's HYPOTHETICAL; fatherly bugbear for admonishment
4. There is some reason that entire letters in the accepted cannon can be DISREGARDED --- somehow they don't APPLY to us HERE TODAY

My frustration is when each of those four positions (for a given passage) is refuted (and no fifth position offered), yet the point is not conceded.

I am of course in my discussions aware of a principle of "saving face", and I seek not to "win" a debate especially not at the expense of the feelings of a brother or sister; and equally sensitive that my OWN position found on Scripture (rather than on my own pride or "saving face"). The point of debates is to BUILD and STRENGTHEN each other, as we ALL deepen our understanding of the Bible and our faith.

Yet a fundamental truth persists in debates --- differing understandings can be either BOTH WRONG, or ONE RIGHT. I suffer from a conviction that the Bible was written by average ordinary people, intended to be understood by average ordinary people (who may not have a degree in an original language).

If one passage is open to differing interpretations, then surely there are other passages even in other letters that confirm the correct understanding. Hence your accusation of my "jumping around" or "flooding with information".

If we don't understand the nuances of Jesus' Gospel, it is reasonable to believe that the Apostles, and Paul, DID.

Thus the continuing debate. Hopefully always in love, always building and never destroying.

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

I get PMs from people all the time saying how posts like mine have strengthened them in their belief, stronger against Calvinism. When I post the "FORTY VERSES AGAINST ONCE-SAVED-ALWAYS-SAVED", I see that very list show up on others' posts. (And on other message boards...)

Again not-wishing-to-offend, there are a half-dozen "proof-passages" that have been offered, and one of four OSAS understandings must be asserted:
1. They weren't really saved in the FIRST PLACE
2. They may have been "unsteadfast/faithless/deceived/sinning", but were STILL SAVED
3. It's not a REAL narrative, it's HYPOTHETICAL; fatherly bugbear for admonishment
4. There is some reason that entire letters in the accepted cannon can be DISREGARDED --- somehow they don't APPLY to us HERE TODAY

My frustration is when each of those four positions (for a given passage) is refuted (and no fifth position offered), yet the point is not conceded.

I am of course in my discussions aware of a principle of "saving face", and I seek not to "win" a debate especially not at the expense of the feelings of a brother or sister; and equally sensitive that my OWN position found on Scripture (rather than on my own pride or "saving face"). The point of debates is to BUILD and STRENGTHEN each other, as we ALL deepen our understanding of the Bible and our faith.

Yet a fundamental truth persists in debates --- differing understandings can be either BOTH WRONG, or ONE RIGHT. I suffer from a conviction that the Bible was written by average ordinary people, intended to be understood by average ordinary people (who may not have a degree in an original language).

If one passage is open to differing interpretations, then surely there are other passages even in other letters that confirm the correct understanding. Hence your accusation of my "jumping around" or "flooding with information".

If we don't understand the nuances of Jesus' Gospel, it is reasonable to believe that the Apostles, and Paul, DID.

Thus the continuing debate. Hopefully always in love, always building and never destroying.

So at what point do we lose our salvation? Which sin is it exacly? I'd hate to be walking the line and be on the wrong side of it at the moment of my death.

 

[Ben johnson]

So at what point do we lose our salvation? Which sin is it exacly? I'd hate to be walking the line and be on the wrong side of it at the moment of my death.

Hi, Muzikdude! An excellent question --- and precisely why I remain in the debates --- to answer the question, we must first correctly perceive what salvation IS.

There is no sin that can cause us to lose salvation. There is no sin nor sins that can send us to Hell. There is no LACK-OF-SINS that can send us to Heaven. Am I saying that clearly? Salvation has nothing to do with sins or sinlessness; but our sinfulness or sinlessness is a consequence OF salvatoin.

What is salvation? Place all of the Gospel, all of Scripture, all Jesus' and the Apostles' and Paul's words into a pan, put them on your stove and BOIL THEM DOWN, reduce them entirely to ONE WORD --- a single word that defines salvaiton, describes its essence, succinct and complete --- what would that word be?

Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with God. "And our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. If we say we have FELLOWSHIP with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." 1Jn1:3,6

The concept, is "BORN AGAIN". The old sin-inclined-nature (inheritted from Adam) DIES, buried with Jesus through the Cross. And as HE was raised from the dead, so too shall we walk in newness of life. (Rm6) Yet Rom7 says the OLD nature, though dead, REMAINS (while the flesh lives); and sometimes the old is alive, causing us to sin. Paul laments, "Oh wretched man that I am, who will save me from this war (between the two natures) within myself?" The answer -- is in Rom8. It speaks of "walking in the SPIRIT, rather than in the FLESH; if by the Spirit you are crucifying the deeds of the flesh, YOU SHALL LIVE."

The essence of FELLOWSHIP and BORN AGAIN, is being INDWELT with the PERSONS of God. God is real --- sentient, thoughtful, laughing, crying, rejoicing in right, LOVING. The SPIRIT indwells us physically (Matt3:11), and Jesus indwells us physically (Rm6:3, Gal2:20). Please look these up, they're important. Please understand that in both the Matt3 and Rom6 verses, "BAPTIZO" means IMMERSE, and has nothing to do with water. We are immersed into the SPIRIT, and we are immersed into JESUS.

How does this happen? When our hearts are convicted, and we BELIEVE, and RECEIVE JESUS and the SPIRIT. Jn1:12 DEEDS do NOT SAVE US --- see Eph2:8-9; but because of Jesus' presence in our hearts, JESUS does good deeds THROUGH us (Philip2:12-13). Jesus is our righteousness IN us (2Cor5:21)

Salvation is BELIEF that RECEIVES Jesus; at the beginning, through each day, until the end. The idea of "OSAS" (in its three different forms) asserts that a true believer can never DISBELIEVE --- but if you read MANY passages, like Hab3:12-14, James 5:19-20 & 1:14-16, 2Pet2:20-22, Gal3:1-3 & 5:1-7, you will see that a TRUE BELIEVER, can be DECEIVED to NOT-BELIEVING. And NOT-ABIDING-IN-JESUS (see 1Jn2:25-29, 2Jn1:7-9, Jn15:1-6).

Peter warns us not to be deceived to "falling from steadfastness" (2:3:17), mirrored by Paul in Col2:8 & 1:21-23. Peter warns us to "make certain of our calling and election, that these atributes (list) remain ours, that the gates of Heaven be provided to us. (2:1:10-11)

So, Muzikdude, your question really isn't the right question. Though 1Jn5:16 speaks of "a sin that leads to death", and passages like Heb10:26 says "if we continue sinning willfully after having RECEIVED knowledge of the truth --- we expect judgment and fire", what would condemn us eternally, is only UNBELIEF. (And unbelief is what CAUSES the "sin leading to death" and the "continually sinning willfully"...)

Unbelief that ruins the FELLOWSHIP with JESUS that IS SALVATION.

"As you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk IN HIM! Col2:6

Jesus said, "Abide in Me, and I in you." Jn15

It's really that simple. Salvation is by BELIEF, the kind of belief that receives Jesus, as Savior, and as LORD (master). A surrender of will to His lordship, to receiving His mastery in our lives. And the ESSENCE of His fellowship with us, His "burden that lis light and yoke that is easy" (Matt11:30)?

The answer to THAT is clear in 1Jn4!

"God is LOVE; and whoever abides in love, abides in love abides in God, and GOD IN HIM!!!"

Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for a friend; this is what drove Jesus to the Cross, willingly; for you. EACH of you.

Love.

 

[frumanchu]

I get PMs from people all the time saying how posts like mine have strengthened them in their belief, stronger against Calvinism. When I post the "FORTY VERSES AGAINST ONCE-SAVED-ALWAYS-SAVED", I see that very list show up on others' posts. (And on other message boards...)

Congratulations.

Now answer the question.

Can you name for me a Calvinist that has renounced the Reformed view as a direct result of this forum (or another)?

 

[Received]

Well, fru, while I wouldn't doubt Ben's possibility of truly converting one's doctrinal standing, it also wouldn't suprise me if none truly admitted it. The problem with debates such as these is not the intellectual matter, but the sense of showing the other side how it is. You are not going to have a staunch Calvinist/non-Calvinist throw down his cards from losing a single hermeneutical debate; you will have one change his views when his personal life reveals the absurdity of his claims -- i.e. truth is subjectivity. Moreover, the ignorant in subject matter are almost always the fearful, and Calvinism can have a very convincing portrayal -- which leads to a grand acceptance of a doctrine that may only superficially be true.

But I think the main point is that until one has a personal revelation apart from rational debate, it usually takes more than a simple jump from one belief to another -- it takes an entire shift of life-style: church membership, bible study, etc. This, my money is wagered on, is why many fear the opposition.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Fru;

Not necessarily. I'm just busy. Had a job interview out of town today, and I have a lot of stuff to do.

I understand Talk at you later
May God Bless You;
Romanbear

 

[frumanchu]

Received, I agree to a point. No matter how rational and logical the presentation, there are often personal factors which hinder one from accepting the truth. I've witnessed this numerous times, where a person clearly sees the truth of a position, but resists accepting it because of the "pain" involved in doing so. However, that does not take away by any means the importance of solid, consistent debate and presentation. Such a decision to accept a position despite its consequences does not happen spontaneously.

My question for Ben still stands.

 

[AndOne]

I am of course in my discussions aware of a principle of "saving face", and I seek not to "win" a debate especially not at the expense of the feelings of a brother or sister; and equally sensitive that my OWN position found on Scripture (rather than on my own pride or "saving face"). The point of debates is to BUILD and STRENGTHEN each other, as we ALL deepen our understanding of the Bible and our faith.

Is it too much to ask for a little honesty in all of this - do you really think anyone is going to buy this?

I certainly don't......

 

[Mϋzikdϋde]

Hi, Muzikdude! An excellent question --- and precisely why I remain in the debates --- to answer the question, we must first correctly perceive what salvation IS.

There is no sin that can cause us to lose salvation. There is no sin nor sins that can send us to Hell. There is no LACK-OF-SINS that can send us to Heaven. Am I saying that clearly? Salvation has nothing to do with sins or sinlessness; but our sinfulness or sinlessness is a consequence OF salvatoin.

What is salvation? Place all of the Gospel, all of Scripture, all Jesus' and the Apostles' and Paul's words into a pan, put them on your stove and BOIL THEM DOWN, reduce them entirely to ONE WORD --- a single word that defines salvaiton, describes its essence, succinct and complete --- what would that word be?

Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with God. "And our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. If we say we have FELLOWSHIP with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." 1Jn1:3,6

The concept, is "BORN AGAIN". The old sin-inclined-nature (inheritted from Adam) DIES, buried with Jesus through the Cross. And as HE was raised from the dead, so too shall we walk in newness of life. (Rm6) Yet Rom7 says the OLD nature, though dead, REMAINS (while the flesh lives); and sometimes the old is alive, causing us to sin. Paul laments, "Oh wretched man that I am, who will save me from this war (between the two natures) within myself?" The answer -- is in Rom8. It speaks of "walking in the SPIRIT, rather than in the FLESH; if by the Spirit you are crucifying the deeds of the flesh, YOU SHALL LIVE."

The essence of FELLOWSHIP and BORN AGAIN, is being INDWELT with the PERSONS of God. God is real --- sentient, thoughtful, laughing, crying, rejoicing in right, LOVING. The SPIRIT indwells us physically (Matt3:11), and Jesus indwells us physically (Rm6:3, Gal2:20). Please look these up, they're important. Please understand that in both the Matt3 and Rom6 verses, "BAPTIZO" means IMMERSE, and has nothing to do with water. We are immersed into the SPIRIT, and we are immersed into JESUS.

How does this happen? When our hearts are convicted, and we BELIEVE, and RECEIVE JESUS and the SPIRIT. Jn1:12 DEEDS do NOT SAVE US --- see Eph2:8-9; but because of Jesus' presence in our hearts, JESUS does good deeds THROUGH us (Philip2:12-13). Jesus is our righteousness IN us (2Cor5:21)

Salvation is BELIEF that RECEIVES Jesus; at the beginning, through each day, until the end. The idea of "OSAS" (in its three different forms) asserts that a true believer can never DISBELIEVE --- but if you read MANY passages, like Hab3:12-14, James 5:19-20 & 1:14-16, 2Pet2:20-22, Gal3:1-3 & 5:1-7, you will see that a TRUE BELIEVER, can be DECEIVED to NOT-BELIEVING. And NOT-ABIDING-IN-JESUS (see 1Jn2:25-29, 2Jn1:7-9, Jn15:1-6).

Peter warns us not to be deceived to "falling from steadfastness" (2:3:17), mirrored by Paul in Col2:8 & 1:21-23. Peter warns us to "make certain of our calling and election, that these atributes (list) remain ours, that the gates of Heaven be provided to us. (2:1:10-11)

So, Muzikdude, your question really isn't the right question. Though 1Jn5:16 speaks of "a sin that leads to death", and passages like Heb10:26 says "if we continue sinning willfully after having RECEIVED knowledge of the truth --- we expect judgment and fire", what would condemn us eternally, is only UNBELIEF. (And unbelief is what CAUSES the "sin leading to death" and the "continually sinning willfully"...)

Unbelief that ruins the FELLOWSHIP with JESUS that IS SALVATION.

"As you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk IN HIM! Col2:6

Jesus said, "Abide in Me, and I in you." Jn15

It's really that simple. Salvation is by BELIEF, the kind of belief that receives Jesus, as Savior, and as LORD (master). A surrender of will to His lordship, to receiving His mastery in our lives. And the ESSENCE of His fellowship with us, His "burden that lis light and yoke that is easy" (Matt11:30)?

The answer to THAT is clear in 1Jn4!

"God is LOVE; and whoever abides in love, abides in love abides in God, and GOD IN HIM!!!"

Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for a friend; this is what drove Jesus to the Cross, willingly; for you. EACH of you.

Love.

Thanks, I actually already knew the answer and I agree with you. I just thought you should clarify your first statement. Which you did.
You also seemed like you wanted to get that out!

Thanks for taking the time to write that explanation. You said it much better than I would have.

 

[frumanchu]

Ben, regarding salvation, what are we saved from?

 

[Received]

Received, I agree to a point. No matter how rational and logical the presentation, there are often personal factors which hinder one from accepting the truth. I've witnessed this numerous times, where a person clearly sees the truth of a position, but resists accepting it because of the "pain" involved in doing so. However, that does not take away by any means the importance of solid, consistent debate and presentation. Such a decision to accept a position despite its consequences does not happen spontaneously.

Don't think I'm advocating a form of quietism -- I would be a hypocrite: for views to be our views, we must defend them. So far as the doctrinal conversion goes, those of reasonable standing without a form of empiricism the anti-Calvinist has undergone will jump to the Calvinist bandwagon in a heart beat -- it is, as far as seeming exegesis goes, surely scriptural! However, there will be those who do not hold this as scriptural when exegesis presents itself as logical; these are the ones who have their points a priori -- through experience, and hence not through rational discussion, except through the hope of revealing the points of their side in the hope of gaining the appreciation of the opposition in that contingent moment of their realization through experience the contradictions of their doctrines, if indeed they exist.

I am not a Calvinist firstly because I believe this conradicts the face of Jesus as I experience Him as the Word of God unvieling former mysteries to me, through the Holy Spirit, and through the historical actions He has committed; the remainder of the points follow.

My question for Ben still stands.

It assuredly does.

 

[Received]

Ben, regarding salvation, what are we saved from?

I too await your answer, Ben, in contrast with my own: we are saved only from sin (Matthew 1:21); this is the entirety of salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, regarding salvation, what are we saved from?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes should not perish but have eternal life."

"For the wages of sin are death; but the gift of God is eternal life."

"When you were dead in your transgressions, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of deabt ('tetelestai') consisting of its decrees against us and which was hostile to us; He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the Cross."

"When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said "TETELESTAI --- the debt is paid!"

"God, being rich in His mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Jesus. For by grace have you been saved through faith, and (that salvation) is not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not as a result of works lest anyone boast."

"Faith comes from hearing..."

"With the heart man believes..."

"You became obedient from the heart..."

"Continue in the things you have become convicted of, knowing from whom you have learned them; and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Jesus...."

"He will present you holy and blameless before (God), if indeed you continue in faith steadfast and firmly established, and not be moved away from the Hope (Jesus)."

"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

"He who believes in Him is not judged, but he who does not believe is judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

"You are unwilling to come to me that you may have live."

"How can you believe, when you seek glory from one another instead of seeking glory from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; it is Moses who will accuse you. For if you believed Moses, then you woule believe Me, for Moses wrote of me. But if you do not believe Moses, how will you believe Me?"

"Therefore, make all the more certain of your calling and election; for as long as you practice these things you will not stumble (become wretched), and in this way the gates of Heaven will be abundantly provided to you."

"And this is the promise which He Himself promised us: eternal life. These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you receiveed from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and not a like, and just as it has taught you, abide in Him. And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him at His coming."

"Therefore beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation..."

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

"By your endurance you will save your souls."

"Pay close attention to yourself and your teachings, persevere in these things; for as you do this you will save yourself and those who hear you."

"He who has the Son, has the life; he who has not the Son of God has not the life. I write this that you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know you have eternal life."


Jn3:16, Rm6:23, Col2:14, Jn19:30, Eph2:5-8, Rom10:17, Rom10:10, Rom6:17, 2Tim3:15, Col1:23, Jn1:12, Jn3:18, Jn5:40, Jn4:44-47, 1Jn2:25-28, 2Pet3:14, 2Pet3:17, Lk21:19, 1Tim4:16, 1Jn5:12-13

 

[frumanchu]

That's wonderful, Ben. Now ANSWER THE QUESTION. I want an answer, in your words (though you may provide scripture references), to the following question:

What are we saved FROM?

Most of the verses you cited don't even come close to addressing this question.

It's a simply question, Ben. I await your answer.

 

[Ben johnson]

The consequences of sin, Fru. It was very clear in the first four verses I quoted.

 

[Received]

I risk being labeled the madman to make this point known: we are not saved from the consequences of sin, but of sin itself. As virtue is the reward to the man of virtue, so sin is the punishment of the man of unrighteousness. Sin itself is fundamentally a power that deceives, and this deception lies precisely in the misconception that the momentary pleasure of sin outweighs the otherwise lasting deeper psychological peace that we were all created to have. There is nothing in sin itself that is profitable, the effects of which being in themselves destructive; every aspect of sin is destructive! The idea that Jesus saved us from the consequences of sin is, as George MacDonald would say, a false, mean, low notion. To perish, to die, to be without life is all not of the effect of sin, but of sin itself. To be estranged from God is not the effect of sin, just as being estranged from health is not the effect of cancer; to be estranged from health, in this particular case, is the cancer. The effect is not the consequence, but the symptoms of the disease.

To perish is, in a sense, to spoil, and this spoiling is not the effect of sin whatsoever; it is the sin. Wherever God isn't is death, and it is sin and sin alone as a power that acts as the seperation of God from man, and for this reason the scriptures that state Jesus did not die for the consequences of sin, but for sin itself. To think otherwise is to hold the standing of the historical ecclesiastical majority, but to miss also the entirety of a central issue of our faith.

It is the punishment of sin that God uses to lead us to repentance! God never ordains inflictions upon His creation because simply of their sin; the punishment of their sins is already awarded them by God (cf. Psalm 73). On the contrary, God ordains inflictions upon His creation in the hope that they come out of their sin; that they would recognize holiness and gain from it. The worst infliction God could bestow upon His creation, then, is not to throw it into a bonfire, but to let it be!

 

[msortwell]

Just a quick visit back to the original post, then you can feel free to get back to these details.

The question was raised whether the offer to free the caged figure was genuine. The question was complicated by adding that the key holder never actually intended to save the caged.

I'll take a leap here and presume that this puzzle was formed by an Arminian doing his very best to point out a fundamental error in the Calvinist view. This would make the caged man the unregenerate sinner, and the key-holder God.

First, if we are to be consistent with the character of God, we must agree that IF the jailed man (the sinner) had reached for the key (believed and repented), then the key-holder (God) would certainly have given it to him. For it is impossible for our key-holder to lie (Heb 6:18). The key-holder was certainly willing and capable of fulfilling all that he has offered to do.

But more to the point, and I am sure this has been brought forward before.


Rom 9:14-24
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?(KJV)

Despite the flaws already identified in the original question,

I suspect the following are the answers believed and hoped for by the author - No, the offer could not be genuine. Therefore the 'god' of the Calvinist view is a liar, offering redemption to those he does not intend to save! (Please see Romans 9:19 for an alternate choice of words to communicate the same accusation.)

I see here Paul, inspired by the Holy Ghost, anticipating the (Arminian) argument against what has come to be called the Calvinist view (I prefer to call it the Biblical view ).

There must be an Arminian-friendly interpretation of these verses.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to all of us if a non-Calvinist offered an alternative interpretation to Rom 9:14-24. What argument was Paul trying to dispel here? I see it as his inspired self anticipating the offense that God's sovereignty would be to the carnal minds of men. Please, would someone offer a better interpretation?

Mike

 

[Received]

Actually, some non-Calvinists (that is, non-Arminians) would say that Romans 9 is not referring to a response to Arminians, but to Calvinists! -- to those who are content with a limited election, this time within the context of the Jewish throught of election by virtue of one's bloodline. I find this as interesting as I do ironic as I do unfortunate.

The difficulty I see with the OP is the conception of God established by the Calvinist in that the man in the cage is incapable of being saved through acceptance of God, and God thereby judges him on the basis of what he cannot be held accountable for. In short, God is demanding what is impossible, which is contradictory to omnipotence and omniscience, and therefore something non-Calvinists eschew as negating the full sovereignty of God.

One will say to me that man by his very nature deserves the wrath of God -- that his very existence demands the justice of eternal torment; simple logic reveals that this is the case for one of two reasons: 1) God creates men imperfect and demands a perfection they cannot attain; 2) God creates men in His image and they are scarred by the inevitability of Adam's sin, of which is not of their initiation, and therefore not of their fault save what they do with it in light of the possibility of rejecting it; a possbility that cannot be actualized without the possibility of salvation, of which comes only by special revelation (Romans 10).

The difficulty with 1) is that it is contrary to even the most elementary forms of justice as it relates to God; the difficulty with 2) is that if this sinful nature -- a power (Romans 7) -- is something that exists by nature of the action of one man, the others being born ignorantly into it, how can the generations born into it be blamed for the establishment of one man? Man cannot, in the context of justice, be guilty of eternal hellfire by his nature of existing and doing what is necessary to his nature; he must only be guilty of eternal hellfire in proportion to his unwillingness to repent of this nature.

 

[Ben johnson]

we are not saved from the consequences of sin, but of sin itself

Touche'. Yet Scripture says "Jesus is the PROPITIATION for our sins, and not just ours only, but also for the whole world" (holos kosmos). 1Jn2:2 The idea of "propitiation", is PAYMENT.

Our sin earns us death; Jesus paid the price for us, from the Cross.

So, Jesus "saves us from the consequences of sin", in that He paid the debt in our STEAD.

And, Jesus "saves us from sin itself", in that "we are new creations, walking in Him and not in sin".

Perhaps it would be beneficial to all of us if a non-Calvinist offered an alternative interpretation to Rom 9:14-24. What argument was Paul trying to dispel here? I see it as his inspired self anticipating the offense that God's sovereignty would be to the carnal minds of men. Please, would someone offer a better interpretation?

From my text on "OSAS":

Romans 9, TOTAL DEPRAVITY
To understand the Romans 9 passage, let us first come to understanding of the concept of “total depravity”. One of the primary posits of “Irresistible Grace” is that man is completely, totally, depraved; so much so, that he cannot ever even consider the possibility of accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. But does Scripture support that view? Consider Romans 1:18ff, “For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for GOD MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. For even though THEY KNEW GOD, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. Professing to be wise they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity... they exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions... and because they did not acknowledge God any longer, God GAVE THEM OVER to a depraved mind”.

In Romans 1 it says very clearly and undeniably that God is revealed to all men. It is then up to each to accept Him or reject Him. Clearly, although “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there are NONE righteous” (Romans 3), God reveals Himself to each person, in enough measure that the person HAS the ability to choose. Thus the “They are without excuse”. It also undeniably says that God, because of their conscious rejection of Him and embracement of “the lie”, gives them over to a depraved mind. Does this mean that their hardened hearts are their own fault? Consider Hebrews 3:13, “Lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin”. The Greek for “hardened” here is “skleruno”, which means “made stubborn or obstinate”. The same word as used in Romans 9:18; which, apparently indicates that God does the “hardening and softening”, but in context with Romans 1, we gain the deeper understanding that the hardening is a result of their conscious choice (their heart darkened because they chose “the lie") and the “God hardens whom He desires” is understood to mean that He gives over to a base and depraved mind those who reject Him.

Technically, in Exodus 10:1 it reads “made heavy”, and verses 10:20, 27, 11:10 and 14:8 mean “made strong”. Was Pharaoh a helpless pawn in the machinations of an absolutely-controlling-God? Or was his “hardening” because of his choice to “embrace the lie”? It is theologically sound to understand the latter. God “hardens” people in the sense that He honors their choice to reject Him and gives them over to a base and depraved mind.

Consider also a “Semitic View” --- in Romans 9:17-18, one would think that GOD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, UNILATERALLY (against Pharaoh’s will). You would also think this if you read Exodus 10:1. But read just two verses earlier: “When Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and HARDENED HIS OWN HEART, he and his servants. Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go…” Exodus 9:34-35 There is a “Semitic View” that ascribes to God things that God HAS NOT DONE. Context is always critical.

What of the words, “Who resists God’s will”? (vs19) This is a rare use of the word, “DECREE” (boulema); but the context is Paul constructing a RETORT, this statement was made by Paul’s proposed DETRACTOR. There is nothing in the context to deny that “God has mercy on whom He desires, and He desires (‘thelema&#8217 that all who see Jesus and BELIEVE, be SAVED.” Jn6:40 There is nothing in the context to imply that anyone’s salvation is DECREED.

Now, if God does not predestine-to-salvation, then what of the passage in Romans 9 that speaks of “pottery”? It clearly says that some are created “for honor”, and some “for common”. Let us assume that they are on the potter’s wheel because of their choice to submit to Him --- they are already saved (as we have already established in this discourse). 1Corinthians 12:4ff tells us that God uses each of us as He chooses, different parts of the body, for the common good, as He chooses. Some for honor, some for common. Perfect harmony, the clay submits to the potter to use as He wills.

Though the words “Honor” (ti-me),and “dishonor” (atimia) seem to convey “saved” and “unsaved” vessels in 2Tim2:20-21, in Romans 9 there are clearly THREE vessels; “honor”, “dishonor”, and “wrath-prepared-for-destruction”. The translators of the NASV take the “dishonor” to mean “COMMON” --- both honor and common are SAVED; while the “wrath-destruction” are clearly unsaved. I agree with them --- it makes no sense if the “atimia dishonor” and the “skeuos orge katartizo eis apoleia vessels-of-wrath-fitted-for-destruction” are both UNSAVED.

Verse Romans 9:23, the “endured with patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”? What caused them to BE “vessels of wrath”, and to BE “prepared for destruction”? (KATARTISMENA carries the tense of “middle-voice”, meaning “PREPARED-THEMSELVES"). Consider the parable of Matthew 13:24ff; the landowner said “Allow the tares (weeds, grass) to grow with the wheat, but in the harvest the wheat will be gathered and the weeds burned.” Thus the weeds were “endured with patience”, PERFECTLY in harmony with 2Peter3:9! The un-submitted vessels-of-clay, He endures for now, but their rebellious state assures their future destruction (Matt13:30,41-42, 25:32,41; Rom2:5.) Is there anything in this passage that indicates God overrides our will to salvation? No. Is there anything in this passage that indicates God honors free will? Consider 9:32 “They did not achieve righteousness, because they pursued it by works rather than faith”. Clearly they made the wrong choice. Verse 33 demonstrates that He was a stumbling stone because they did not believe. Continuing in chapter 10, “They have (wrong) zeal for God; not knowing about God’s righteousness, seeking to establish their own, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Belief is a choice, very clearly written in this passage. It is not predestined.

Some try to assert that “God PRE-LOVED Jacob and PRE-HATED Esau” (from Romans 9:11-13); but God knew the future, and knew which would follow and which would rebel. Also, an idea has been suggested that “Jacob” and “Esau” are “archetypes” of two peoples --- again, one people who loved God, and the other who did not.

Romans 3, TOTAL DEPRAVITY
The third chapter of Romans seems to be a “PROOF” to many who support “Calvinism”. Romans 3 boldly declares, “There is NONE righteous, not one; ALL have turned aside, NONE seek after God.” The Calvinist says, “AHA! See?! They are TOTALLY DEPRAVED, they CANNOT turn to God WITHOUT His forceful intervention!” But that leaves us with a dilemma; because passages such as Jeremiah 29:12-14 say, “you will SEEK Me and you will FIND Me, when you search with ALL YOUR HEART; I will be found by you.” Which then is the truth --- that NO ONE SEEKS, or that WHOEVER SEEKS God, will FIND Him? It turns out that the Romans 3 passage is not even original “Pauline writing”; Paul is merely quoting Psalm 14, and Psalm 53. If you read those Psalms, you will see that they are a LAMENTATION; in other words, exaggeration. Now, we have just discussed how Romans 1 shows “each man has God revealed to him, each man is WITHOUT EXCUSE”; therefore, there is no other option but to understand Romans chapter 3 than to be “lamentation/exaggeration”. “NO ONE SEEKS” means “the majority do not”; but Scripturally, “if you DO seek Me, you will FIND Me.”

Genesis 6:5
Genesis 6:5 says, “every intent of the thoughts of man’s heart was only evil continually”. Is this an ABSOLUTE? Consider verses 6:8-9: “But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was a righteous man, blameless (with integrity) in his time.” So it seems there was at least ONE man whose thoughts were NOT “continually evil”, doesn’t it? The question becomes one of CAUSE and EFFECT: did Noah find favor because he was righteous, or was he righteous because he found favor? It simply doesn’t make sense to believe Noah’s righteousness was IMPOSED; it is clear that God favored him because he was righteous. Verse 6:5 is the same type of lamentation/exaggeration as is the Romans 3, and Psalm14/53 passages.

 

[SuperBunny]

Ben johnson, what churches by denominational name do you reccomend support the arminian view? As I am looking for a church that is also not wild pentocostal or is gift cessationist. I find the AoG churches are either calvinist or screamin lunatics