Yin and Yang? Not in My Bible!

[Treeplanter]

Hope you get that problem worked out!

Thanks!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, I am fully aware that God is both triune and monotheistic

That said, there are many aspects to God's nature, most if not all of which, fit neatly into one of two primary attributes - God as LOVE and God's HOLINESS

I see nothing wrong with describing the Christian God as a dualistic god on this basis

As for the concept of Yin & Yang, I invoked the term simply for the sole purpose of illustrating that of God's two primary attributes - the one overpowers the other and God's love is not complemented and balanced, such as one finds with Yin & Yang, in equal and perfect harmony by His holiness

Sorry, don't agree at all, God does not have two primary attributes. To suggest a dualism from Love and Holiness misses the essence of His nature.

The fact that Eastern dualism combines good and evil attributes into one entity frankly makes the suggestion offensive.

1 John 1:5
"God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all..."

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Sorry, don't agree at all, God does not have two primary attributes. To suggest a dualism from Love and Holiness misses the essence of His nature.

The fact that Eastern dualism combines good and evil attributes into one entity frankly makes the suggestion offensive.

1 John 1:5
"God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all..."

And yet
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.'

Which further suggests that God transcends all our little mental categories.

 

[Treeplanter]

Sorry, don't agree at all, God does not have two primary attributes. To suggest a dualism from Love and Holiness misses the essence of His nature.

The fact that Eastern dualism combines good and evil attributes into one entity frankly makes the suggestion offensive.

1 John 1:5
"God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all..."

1. I am not talking about Eastern Dualism

I am talking about the Christian God and I have, apparently, introduced the feasibility of summing up His various attributes into one of two, primary facets of His divine nature

2. What additional attributes or facets of His nature cannot fall under the heading of LOVE or HOLINESS?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

1. I am not talking about Eastern Dualism

I am talking about the Christian God and I have, apparently, introduced the feasibility of summing up His various attributes into one of two, primary facets of His divine nature

2. What additional attributes or facets of His nature cannot fall under the heading of LOVE or HOLINESS?

Where would you place justice?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

The way I see it, there are many aspects to God's nature, most if not all of which, fit neatly into one of two primary attributes - God as LOVE and God's HOLINESS

Of course, I realize that Yin & Yang is not a biblical concept

I introduced the abstraction only as a means by which to introduce the idea of two seemingly diametrically opposed natures {such as selflessness and selfishness} coexisting in perfect harmony and equal measure

You see holiness as neither inwardly nor outwardly directed
I disagree

Although God can make a human being holy, I don't imagine that anyone will argue with me when I assert that God is the one and only, truly holy being in existence

He, and He alone, is set apart
God's holiness is wholly His
All about Him
If this isn't what it means to be inwardly directed - then I don't know what is...

I agree that God is the one and only, truly holy being in existence.

However, I disagree when you assert that this makes God self focused of inwardly directed. Why? Because He makes people holy as part of sanctification. He also allows for people to be reconciled back to Him through the cross. Our redemption was not Him being inwardly directed.

Perhaps I could have chosen a different word than selfishness to describe God's holiness, but I don't know what that word might be...

Selfishness is to be excessively and/or exclusively concerned with one's self
Holiness, by definition, is selfish

I don’t see that being the case. God is the Creator, and as such, He created all that is seen and unseen. His love goes hand in hand with His holiness. I see the whole biblical account as being a love story between God and humanity.

The Holy Spirit is definitely not only concerned about Himself. He convicts the world of sin and leads people to God. None of this is self focused, as God wants what is best for humans.

You have asserted that God's holiness is not in opposition to His love
I beg to differ

What happens when a sincere god-seeker dies without having come to Christ?
A sincere god-seeker who dies having been deceived into following a false god?

This person now finds himself standing in judgement before the ONE, TRUE GOD

This person now realizes how he had been fooled by Satan into devoting himself, in life, to the wrong god

This person, with a genuinely repentant heart and sincere desire to spend eternity with God, asks humbly for forgiveness

Christianity would have us believe that God tells this man:

"Too late - you had your chance to find Jesus before you died and you blew it - now you will be going to Hell"

Here, we find God's love in conflict with His holiness and His holiness comes out on top

God, as love, desires to welcome this man into Heaven
God's holiness, though, demands that this man go to Hell

I am definitely not God.

I do believe that Jesus is the only way.

Yet, the decision of whether or not someone goes to hell is not up to me. I am not the Judge.

The specific example you gave above is a case in which I would just trust God to make the decision, as He has all the information. He would know what the person was accountable to knowing, He would know whether or not someone was truly repentant, and if they came to truly believe in Jesus at the throne I don’t honestly see that as much different from someone who was dying and asking for repentance at the last possible moment before death.

Honestly, I think God would much rather see someone come to repentance than send them to hell. If somehow God still allowed this at the judgement throne, I certainly would not object to that.

However, I also don’t know if it is possible for someone to come to repentance after they died. This is just something that only God knows.

Since I cannot recall anything exactly like your proposed example in Scripture, (the closest thing I can think of is Luke 16:19-31, and that is a parable which Jesus told that is set after the rich man is already in hell, and doesn’t state whether the rich man is actually repentant —except he wants to warn his brothers in the hopes that they will repentant) it is impossible for us to know what God would definitely say in that situation.

We certainly cannot base a conclusion off your proposed scenario, and then base doctrine off of that.

If you look at the Bible as a whole, God is both holy and is love.

I don’t think God takes pleasure in anyone going to hell, but yet, if a person continues to refuse God’s gift, then He has no choice but to send them to hell.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Honestly, I think God would much rather see someone come to repentance than send them to hell. If somehow God still allowed this at the judgement throne, I certainly would not object to that.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

Thanks. And also this one, which is actually the verse I was thinking of:


The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 NASB 95

 

[Carl Emerson]

And yet
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.'

Which further suggests that God transcends all our little mental categories.

Your selected translation does not reflect the Hebrew so well..

Try NASB.

The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating disaster;
I am the Lord who does all these things.

These all refer to matters in the created order - not matters of God's Character.

 

[Treeplanter]

This isn't a moral problem this is a ethical problem. Secondly, God's values ain't gonna be subjected to the fallen man nor would we state we are equally valuable to God when in reality we not. Also, we shouldn't question sovereignty as we aren't divine. Also, when we die we would be back in the likeness of him since we aren't anymore, God chooses to send his Son etc. so we will get back in it is what you define selfishness as I presume your definition is lost. We should note;God's love isn't defined by creation it is defined by his Nature

Whether you want to term it a moral problem or an ethical problem is irrelevant
Point is - it's a problem!

Sorry, but I reject the notion that the basic human values as shared by you, myself, and most every other person on earth need be dismissed and set aside where God is concerned

We wouldn't stand for a human parent who cares more for himself than his child and nor should we forgive a god for doing the same

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Your selected translation does not reflect the Hebrew so well..

Try NASB.

The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating disaster;
I am the Lord who does all these things.

These all refer to matters in the created order - not matters of God's Character.

Yes, I wanted to delete it.

 

[Treeplanter]

I agree that God is the one and only, truly holy being in existence.

However, I disagree when you assert that this makes God self focused of inwardly directed. Why? Because He makes people holy as part of sanctification. He also allows for people to be reconciled back to Him through the cross. Our redemption was not Him being inwardly directed.


I don’t see that being the case. God is the Creator, and as such, He created all that is seen and unseen. His love goes hand in hand with His holiness. I see the whole biblical account as being a love story between God and humanity.

The Holy Spirit is definitely not only concerned about Himself. He convicts the world of sin and leads people to God. None of this is self focused, as God wants what is best for humans.


I am definitely not God.

I do believe that Jesus is the only way.

Yet, the decision of whether or not someone goes to hell is not up to me. I am not the Judge.

The specific example you gave above is a case in which I would just trust God to make the decision, as He has all the information. He would know what the person was accountable to knowing, He would know whether or not someone was truly repentant, and if they came to truly believe in Jesus at the throne I don’t honestly see that as much different from someone who was dying and asking for repentance at the last possible moment before death.

Honestly, I think God would much rather see someone come to repentance than send them to hell. If somehow God still allowed this at the judgement throne, I certainly would not object to that.

However, I also don’t know if it is possible for someone to come to repentance after they died. This is just something that only God knows.

Since I cannot recall anything exactly like your proposed example in Scripture, (the closest thing I can think of is Luke 16:19-31, and that is a parable which Jesus told that is set after the rich man is already in hell, and doesn’t state whether the rich man is actually repentant —except he wants to warn his brothers in the hopes that they will repentant) it is impossible for us to know what God would definitely say in that situation.

We certainly cannot base a conclusion off your proposed scenario, and then base doctrine off of that.

If you look at the Bible as a whole, God is both holy and is love.

I don’t think God takes pleasure in anyone going to hell, but yet, if a person continues to refuse God’s gift, then He has no choice but to send them to hell.

Don't you see, though - God does not offer us redemption for our sake
{the selfless thing to do}
{the loving thing to do}
{the outwardly directed thing to do}

God offers us redemption for His own sake - so that His holy name be praised and glorified
{the selfish thing to do}
{the holy thing to do}
{the inwardly directed thing to do}


*I hope you're right, where my scenario of repentance after death is concerned, but the vast majority of Christians with whom I have conversed assure me that in such a case - God will cast such a soul into the Lake of Fire

 

[Treeplanter]

Where would you place justice?

Justice, which revolves around being in right relationship with God and the rendering upon Him of what rightly belongs to Him, fits snugly under the heading of HOLINESS

 

[Treeplanter]

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

If that were true and God truly desires that all come to Him, then why impose a cutoff date of death?

God alone decided that those who die without having accepted Jesus Christ as lord and savior will go to Hell and God can just as easily decide to give those who die apart from Christ an opportunity to choose Him after death

Why doesn't He?

 

[SongOnTheWind]

I trust that a human parent who proclaims:
"I, fundamentally, come before my child"
is a parent that you would regard as both rotten and unworthy of having a child

I know that's what I think and how I feel...

God, essentially, proclaims:
"I, fundamentally, come before my children"

However, doesn't a good and moral parent proclaim:
"I place my child, fundamentally, before myself"?

God, essentially, proclaims:
"I, fundamentally, come before my children"
and you seem to want to brush it aside and chalk it up to:
"Oh well, it's one of the mysteries of God - and it's not our place to judge Him"

Doesn't a good and moral parent teach and encourage his/her child to judge others {including the parent, him/herself} based on the moral character that is exhibited by said 'other'?

To judge someone's moral character is simply to form an opinion and reach a conclusion on said moral character after having considered one's words and actions and having filtered and processed said words and actions through one's own understanding upon the differentiation of right and wrong / good and evil


Couple questions for you:

What do you think God values more in a man

a humility that precludes a questioning nature?
or
a confidence that inspires a questioning nature?

And which would you want for your own child?

Philippians 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

He is the greatest among us because He is the servant of all. He died on the cross so that we wouldn't have to go to hell, but instead gave us the power to become the sons of God.

If you feel judged because you are not as perfect as He is, then guess what? He is not the problem.

HINT: we are.

 

[Treeplanter]

Philippians 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

He is the greatest among us because He is the servant of all. He died on the cross so that we wouldn't have to go to hell, but instead gave us the power to become the sons of God.

If you feel judged because you are not as perfect as He is, then guess what? He is not the problem.

HINT: we are.

I don't feel judged
Nor do I have any problem whatsoever with being judged

In fact, I am all for judging - and that includes judging God, Himself

God places Himself above His children and I judge Him for this

I believe that any god worthy of our devotion is a god who welcomes our judgement

 

[SongOnTheWind]

I bring up Yin & Yang only to introduce the concept of two seemingly, diametrically opposed natures balancing one another in equal measure and perfect harmony

The point, though, is that God's nature of love and His nature of holiness are NOT balanced and equal

God's holiness takes precedence over His love and scripture makes this clear
See Matthew 22:36-39

God values the praising of His holy name, by His creation, above and beyond the satisfaction of seeing His creation love one another

Matthew 22:36-39
36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the great and first commandment.

39 And a second like [unto it] is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.


No, you are just reading what you want to read into these scriptures. What it actually says is that firstly we are to love God. Not call Him, holy, or to be holy like Him, although we should want to be. But to LOVE Him. Secondly we must love our neighbour. Not be holy to our neighbour, though it would help us all greatly. But to LOVE them. Nothing about holiness is mentioned in this portion of scripture.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Justice, which revolves around being in right relationship with God and the rendering upon Him of what rightly belongs to Him, fits snugly under the heading of HOLINESS.

God alone decided that those who die without having accepted Jesus Christ as lord and savior will go to Hell and God can just as easily decide to give those who die apart from Christ an opportunity to choose Him after death

Why doesn't He?

No wonder you are an atheist.
I see justice just as much a human concern toward each other as toward God, an expression of Love.

I view the scriptures and Christ with little more freedom. Only God knows the eternal destiny of anyone.

Again we come to love, the great commandment. Love is also the fulfillment of Torah as Jesus told us.

Matthew 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

[SongOnTheWind]

I don't feel judged
Nor do I have any problem whatsoever with being judged

In fact, I am all for judging - and that includes judging God, Himself

God places Himself above His children and I judge Him for this

I believe that any god worthy of our devotion is a god who welcomes our judgement

He made Himself of no reputation to deal with your sin, and you are going to judge Him for having high standards?

No one can force you to stop judging, but if you really feel the need you should really ask yourself why, don't you think?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I believe that any god worthy of our devotion is a god who welcomes our judgement

Are you judging God or the Bible? or one of the many the Biblical images of God? They only point to an idea based on their original contexts.

If you want to judge God you need to come to know God in your own experience.
If that isn't happening it is just an intellectual exercise.