YHWH-why deleted?

[Moriel]

Silly. For the record I know Jehovahs witnesses do NOT have a problem with the pronouciation of Gods name as "Yahweh". They just choose for official purposes to use "Jehovah".. Trust me I have experience with this, Don't jump to conclusions over Jehovahs Witnesses beliefs and standards

Indeed. I think there just had to be some consensus so that people had a standard. Just for the sake of not having each individual people having their own pronunciation, which could cause divisions. Sort of like why the "official translation" used is the NWT... nothing "wrong" with any other translation... it's just easiest to follow along with bible readings if everyone's reading from the same one. Although I've seen quite a few watchtower articles lately that quote from translations other than the NWT, and we have one printing... I forget what it's called, but I saw it when I was younger... where it's 4 bibles in one... on each page, it goes column by column with one column of NWT side by side with that column in the KJV and two other commonly used translations.

Great for cross-referencing.



I am truely interested in the consequence of not using gods name, especially in the new testament, and in general conversation or in pastoral education. Although it should not be inserted into every New Testament version, I believe this for scholarly and historical accuracy reasons. I know not of any mainstream bibles that contain Gods name in the old testament and that is disappointing.

It is an exaggeration to say mainstream christianity rejects Gods name entirely. Even the most traditional congregations sing hymns about "Jehovah", and Hallelu"jah" is used often in praise songs.

Just some thoughts anyway....[/quote]

 

[Moriel]

How often do you call on His name--in your prayers and talking to other people? Should we use it several times each day? Does our relationship with God depend on it?

I can't speak for the others since I'm just beginning to post (although I've been reading the forums for a while). But, personally, in normal conversation, I simply refer to him as "God" probably 60% of the time, "Jehovah" 30%, and "The Father" 10% or so.

When I pray, as per Jesus' example, I usually address him as my heavenly Father probably 90% of the time, and refer to him by name 10%... but I don't really like "name dropping" when talking directly to a person anyway. I'll use someone's name to get their attention, but otherwise, I don't go out of my way to say someone's name when talking to them. Although, sociologically, there's reason to. Apparently by dropping someone's name when talking to them, it triggers an extra emotional response. For example, in normal conversation, it triggers the reward center of the brain, making everything you say seem more positive, and it makes you appear more confident/aggressive. However, when scolding someone, dropping their name unnecessarily makes anything you say seem even more punitive (again, making you seem more confident and aggressive in the process).

Unfortunately, I'm so non-aggressive that I have very little personal confidence. Go me. Eherm... So yea, I don't go out of my way to drop his name to prove to people that I know it... but I use it regularly as seems appropriate.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Then, shouldn't people place their blame on the King James Version of the bible, where we got that pronunciation? Remember, it still appears in the KJV 4 times.

Also, if you're going to be picky about "Jehovah" having a "Y" instead of a "J" ... should you not be equally picky about the translation of a translation that is Jesus' name (which was originally "Yeshua")?

I don't see how one can accept the name "Jesus" ... but deny the name "Jehovah" because of the Y/J translation BOTH names posses.
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"Jesus" is an English transliteration of the Greek Iēsous, which in the Hebrew is "Howshea" -Hosea- which means "Salvation".
"Jehovah" is not a transliteration, but an invention.
There is no word "Jehovah" in the Scriptures, but there is YHWH, and YHWH is not a pronounced word, but is breathed; and every living soul has the manufacturers name stamped on every breath they take in and exhale. From the time they come into the world from the womb, until departing the body of flesh, they breath His breath, which He loans to every living soul -and name Him thereby as the owner of that breath.

 

[Moriel]

"Jesus" is an English transliteration of the Greek Iēsous, which in the Hebrew is "Howshea" -Hosea- which means "Salvation".
"Jehovah" is not a transliteration, but an invention.
There is no word "Jehovah" in the Scriptures, but there is YHWH, and YHWH is not a pronounced word, but is breathed; and every living soul has the manufacturers name stamped on every breath they take in and exhale. From the time they come into the world from the womb, until departing the body of flesh, they breath His breath, which He loans to every living soul -and name Him thereby as the owner of that breath.

Indeed, "Jesus" is a transliteration of a transliteration.

However, with the name YHWH (or JHVH) being pronounced 6800+ times in the bible... what makes you think it's not actually a word to be spoken? What makes you suggest that it's to be "breathed" but not "said?"

The scriptures seem clear to me that Jehovah demanded that his name be known and sanctified. This was repeated in Jesus' famous prayer "Let your name be sanctified (honored)." This is pretty different than what many churches are doing today: actively hiding his name, or suggesting that this name isn't the name of the Father at all, but specifically the O.T. name for Jesus. (not much shocks me... but the first time I heard that claim, my jaw literally dropped)

so, YSM, I look forward to your explanation as to what makes you believe that the divine name has no pronunciation.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Indeed, "Jesus" is a transliteration of a transliteration.

However, with the name YHWH (or JHVH) being pronounced 6800+ times in the bible... what makes you think it's not actually a word to be spoken? What makes you suggest that it's to be "breathed" but not "said?"

The scriptures seem clear to me that Jehovah demanded that his name be known and sanctified. This was repeated in Jesus' famous prayer "Let your name be sanctified (honored)." This is pretty different than what many churches are doing today: actively hiding his name, or suggesting that this name isn't the name of the Father at all, but specifically the O.T. name for Jesus. (not much shocks me... but the first time I heard that claim, my jaw literally dropped)

so, YSM, I look forward to your explanation as to what makes you believe that the divine name has no pronunciation.

If you breathe, you call His name -YH-WH, in and out.
The word "pronounced" is just to mimic the breathing of it, for it is the breath itself, which is breathed by all living souls, giving them life.
YHWH means "LIFE/BREATH", and YHWH is come in flesh and His name is Jesus Christ -The Savior, the Anointed One, the Messiah.
And as to Him being YHWH come in flesh, John tells us so in John 12:37-41, when John clearly states that Jesus the Christ was seen on His throne, pre-incarnation, by Isaiah, as YHWH of hosts.
You can write it in Hebrew, but to "speak" it properly, you "breathe".
And transliterated words are words brought over from one language to another. Jesus is transliterated from the Hebrew Howshea. Jehovah has nothing to bring over, for it does not exist in Hebrew and so is an invented word.

 

[Moriel]

If you breathe, you call His name -YH-WH, in and out.
The word "pronounced" is just to mimic the breathing of it, for it is the breath itself, which is breathed by all living souls, giving them life.
YHWH means "LIFE/BREATH"

... and what are you basing this on? In what language do you believe the proper pronunciation for YHWH is the sound of breathing, and in what language to you believe the word translates to "life/breath?"

and YHWH is come in flesh and His name is Jesus Christ -The Savior, the Anointed One, the Messiah.

And, just on a personal note... please... please please please... use english. Slang's fine, abbreviations are fine... typos happen (myself included)... but "YHWH is come in flesh" is not a logical sentence.

"Is coming"
"has come"
"will come"
"continues to come"
"came"
... these are all fine. But "YHWH is come in flesh" is not an intelligible thought. ... sorry... trinitarian jargon just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

And as to Him being YHWH come in flesh, John tells us so in John 12:37-41, when John clearly states that Jesus the Christ was seen on His throne, pre-incarnation, by Isaiah, as YHWH of hosts.

... Doesn't say that when I read John 12:37-41 in any translation. Mind explaining how you arrive at his conclusion? Sure, it's a statement that although Jesus performed miracles, they didn't believe in him just as Isaiah had prophesied. How is that "calling Jesus YHWH?"

You can write it in Hebrew, but to "speak" it properly, you "breathe".
And transliterated words are words brought over from one language to another. Jesus is transliterated from the Hebrew Howshea. Jehovah has nothing to bring over, for it does not exist in Hebrew and so is an invented word.

well, the letters "Yod(also pronounced "Jod")" "Heh" Vav" "Heh" don't sound like breathing to me... again... what are you basing the opinion on that the proper pronunciation of this name is to not "say" it at all? Just as "Yeshua" was transliterated as "Iesous" and then "jesus" ... YHWH was transliterated similarly into Iehova, then "Jehovah" from that.

I can't post links yet, but look up "Jehovah" on wikipedia and there's an interesting explanation, a few documents of debates for and against that pronunciation, as well as an image of an old church displaying a sign saying "Iehova."

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...

And, just on a personal note... please... please please please... use english. Slang's fine, abbreviations are fine... typos happen (myself included)... but "YHWH is come in flesh" is not a logical sentence.

"Is coming"
"has come"
"will come"
"continues to come"
"came"
... these are all fine. But "YHWH is come in flesh" is not an intelligible thought. ... sorry... trinitarian jargon just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Jesus is "YHWH" come in flesh "is come"-erchomai
blb.org; Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] eleuthomai {el-yoo'-thom-ahee}, or [active] eltho {el'-tho}, which do not otherwise occur)

2Jo 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come/erchomai in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

How is it that YHWH is come in the flesh? By preparing/making a completely new human being flesh body [in the womb of the virgin] for His "donning/putting on" like a garment.

That flesh body is the "Kinsman/Redeemer-Ga'al" of Adam, who came with "LIFE" to lay down to pay for the redemption of His flesh Kinsman -the Adam race. His flesh body which He donned at the incarnation is the only Kinsman to Adam who has the power and the will to redeem the race of Adam.

There is much Scripture on this, and this is the story of redemption in the New Man name, by His adoption of us who are all called "Adam", as to our race's name, into the name of the New Creation Man.

By His cleansing Blood -the Acceptable Atonement of which Moses wrote for Israel to rehearse, once, yearly, in types and shadows- He has cleansed us from the defilement which kept us separated in death from the fellowship with the Glory.

By His cleansing, He has made us fit to be adopted -which is the second birth of Spirit, which is being made one/joined to His Living Spirit.

By that cleansing applied/received by a soul, and the adoption into the Living Spirit/Christ, He has made us fit to be donned with the immortal body of flesh made in His image, at the resurrection and or regeneration of us, at the first harvest of sons of God from the earth -typed in Pentecost's ingathering feast, in the living oracles.
~~~~~
YHWH donned the garment of Kinsman/Redeemer -Isaiah 59.
YHWH is Jesus Christ, in that flesh, and He is returning in that garment of flesh in which He died [was baptized/immersed in death/blood], and which He rose in, and which He ascended in, and which He is glorified in -Revelation 19.

The body for His donning was prepared in the womb of a virgin, therefore Jeremiah said the new thing in the earth is that a woman [a virgin] "compassed" a "Geber" . That Geber is EL-ELOHE-ISRAEL- "God, the Mighty God, Israel".

"Israel", the second Man, is God the Word; He is YHWH "come in flesh" present tense.

He is "Emmanuel" -God with us, tabernacling with us.
He is YHWH, in the person of the Word, come from heaven to be our own Kinsman/Redeemer in flesh of human being creation of the second Man, as John says in John 1 and in John 12:37-41.


-And YHWH is the Manufacturers brand name stamped on the breath of every living soul, in every language -for that cannot be changed, and all breath is "one breath".

 

[Der Alte]

... [ . . . ]well, the letters "Yod(also pronounced "Jod")" "Heh" Vav" "Heh" don't sound like breathing to me... again... what are you basing the opinion on that the proper pronunciation of this name is to not "say" it at all? Just as "Yeshua" was transliterated as "Iesous" and then "jesus" ... YHWH was transliterated similarly into Iehova, then "Jehovah" from that.

I can't post links yet, but look up "Jehovah" on wikipedia and there's an interesting explanation, a few documents of debates for and against that pronunciation, as well as an image of an old church displaying a sign saying "Iehova."

Wiki is not at all reliable as a source. Every page has links "Edit this page", anybody can post anything or change anything at will with no controls, no review. Here is a source which, on this topic, is virtually irrefutable.

Jewish Encyclopedia -YHWH.

Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh (יהוה), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah," which, however, is a philological impossibility (see Jehovah). This form has arisen through attempting to pronounce the consonants of the name with the vowels of Adonai (אדני = "Lord"), which the Masorites have inserted in the text, indicating thereby that Adonai was to be read (as a "keri perpetuum") instead of Yhwh. When the name Adonai itself precedes, to avoid repetition of this name, Yhwh is written by the Masorites with the vowels of Elohim, in which case Elohim is read instead of Yhwh. In consequence of this Masoretic reading the authorized and revised English versions (though not the American edition of the revised version) render Yhwh by the word "Lord" in the great majority of cases.

In appearance, Yhwh (יהוה) is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb ( הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "hai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).

If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").

JewishEncyclopedia.com - NAMES OF GOD.

Jewish Encyclopedia - Jehovah

A mispronunciation (introduced by Christian theologians, but almost entirely disregarded by the Jews) of the Hebrew "Yhwh," the (ineffable) name of God (the Tetragrammaton or "Shem ha-Meforash"). This pronunciation is grammatically impossible; it arose through pronouncing the vowels of the "kere" (marginal reading of the Masorites: אדני = "Adonay") with the consonants of the "ketib" (text-reading: יהוה = "Yhwh")—"Adonay" (the Lord) being substituted with one exception wherever Yhwh occurs in the Biblical and liturgical books. "Adonay" presents the vowels "shewa" (the composite under the guttural א becomes simple under the &#1497, "holem," and "kamez," and these give the reading יהוה(= "Jehovah"). Sometimes, when the two names יהוה and אדני occur together, the former is pointed with "hatef segol" () under the י —thus, יהוה (="Jehovah")—to indicate that in this combination it is to be pronounced "Elohim" אלהים). These substitutions of "Adonay"and "Elohim" for Yhwh were devised to avoid the profanation of the Ineffable Name (hence יהוה is also written ה, or even ד, and read "ha-Shem" = "the Name ").

The reading "Jehovah" is a comparatively recent invention. The earlier Christian commentators report that the Tetragrammaton was written but not pronounced by the Jews (see Theodoret, "Question. xv. in Ex." [Field, "Hexapla," i. 90, to Ex. vi. 3]; Jerome, "Præfatio Regnorum," and his letter to Marcellus, "Epistola," 136, where he notices that "PIPI" [= ΠIΠI = יהוה] is presented in Greek manuscripts; Origen, see "Hexapla" to Ps. lxxi. 18 and Isa. i. 2; comp. concordance to LXX. by Hatch and Redpath, under ΠIΠI, which occasionally takes the place of the usual κύριος[/b], in Philo's Bible quotations; κύριος[/b] = "Adonay" is the regular translation; see also Aquila).

"Jehovah" is generally held to have been the invention of Pope Leo X.'s confessor, Peter Galatin ("De Arcanis Catholicæ Veritatis," 1518, folio xliii.), who was followed in the use of this hybrid form by Fagius (= Büchlein, 1504-49). Drusius (= Van der Driesche, 1550-1616) was the first to ascribe to Peter Galatin the use of "Jehovah," and this view has been taken since his days (comp. Hastings, "Dict. Bible," ii. 199, s.v. "God"; Gesenius-Buhl, "Handwörterb." 1899, p. 311; see Drusius on the tetragrammaton in his "Critici Sacri, i. 2, col. 344). But it seems that even before Galatin the name "Jehovah" had been in common use (see Drusius, l.c. notes to col. 351). It is found in Raymond Martin's "Pugio Fidei." written in 1270 (Paris, 1651, iii., pt. ii., ch. 3, p. 448; comp. T. Prat in "Dictionnaire de la Bible," s.v.). See also Names of God.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - JEHOVAH:​

 

[yeshuasavedme]

YHWH is not "spoken" as consonants, but as vowels. Breath/Life is His Being, and a close pronounciation, a Jewish person wrote, would be to breathe "a-e-i-o-u"; but by just breathing normally, in and out, one is using His breath which has His own brand name stamped on it.

http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/YAHWEHFrank/ConsonantsOrVowels.html
"A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his head, which was tied by a blue ribband, about which there was another golden crown, in which was engraved the sacred name...: it consist of four vowels." From: The Works of Flavius Josephus, The Learned And Authentic Jewish Historian, And A Celebrated Warrior, pg 785, Book V, Ch. V, Wars of the Jews, sec. 7.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

"Using the vowels of YHWH

Josephus wrote that the sacred name consisted of four vowels. Many
sacred name ministries who believe that YHWH consists of four
vowels, pronounce these four vowels as "ee-ah-oo-eh" and believe
that indicates God's name was either "Yahweh" or "Yahuweh". In what
may be a coincidence, the Greek name "ιαουε" would
have been
pronounced "Yah-oo-eh". (Iota is used as both a vowel and a semi-
vowel.)

YeeeeeeeeeeeeHWH!" -http://osdir.com/ml/culture.templar.rosemont/2005-12/msg00014.html

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The clothing and the name of YHWH on the High Priest's crown, and the vowels of YHWH's pronounciation,
From Josephus book 5, chapter 5, section 7:

When he officiated, he had on a pair of breeches that reached beneath his privy parts to his thighs, and had on an inner garment of linen, together with a blue garment, round, without seam, with fringe work, and reaching to the feet.
There were also golden bells that hung upon the fringes, and pomegranates intermixed among them.
The bells signified thunder, and the pomegranates lightning. But that girdle that tied the garment to the breast was embroidered with five rows of various colors, of gold, and purple, and scarlet, as also of fine linen and blue, with which colors we told you before the veils of the temple were embroidered also.
The like embroidery was upon the ephod; but the quantity of gold therein was greater.
Its figure was that of a stomacher for the breast.
There were upon it two golden buttons like small shields, which buttoned the ephod to the garment; in these buttons were enclosed two very large and very excellent sardonyxes, having the names of the tribes of that nation engraved upon them: on the other part there hung twelve stones, three in a row one way, and four in the other; a sardius, a topaz, and an emerald; a carbuncle, a jasper, and a sapphire; an agate, an amethyst, and a ligure; an onyx, a beryl, and a chrysolite; upon every one of which was again engraved one of the forementioned names of the tribes. A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his head, which was tied by a blue ribbon, about which there was another golden crown, in which was engraven the sacred name [of God]: it consists of four vowels.

Jesus wears that name and is the only one who "knows" it, by "knowing" it, He is in that name, by right of being YHWH in the second Person;


Revelation 19: 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Knowing the name is to be "in, of and by" the name, with all authority of the name, by right, in Bible language.

-being adopted [being born the second time in Spirit] into the name of Jesus the Christ, believers have the authority of that name, by that adoption, and all the legal rights of that name are theirs. But as YHWH, by eternal existence in the name YHWH, Jesus Christ has all authority and all legal rights of that name, "YHWH", which no one/oudeis [no created being] can
"know/eidon" but He, Himself.

 

[jpr7]

YHWH, the name of God, has been ommitted from all the newest Bibles and continues to be suppressed. Jehovah's witnesses (and some others) embrace the name not just because it was used almost 7000 times in the Hebrew (look it up in Strong's concordance), but because the greatest commandment is to love "the LORD" (YHWH) our God, and how much can you love a nameless mystery?
What are your thoughts? (please no ring around the rosie arguments in this thread about our hater's favorite topics--trinity, disfellowshipping etc..).
1. Did God inspire the Bible writers to use the name?

Yes

2. Did God's people in ancient times and in Jesus' times use the name?

At some point they stopped pronouncing it so as to avoid any possibility of taking it in vain.

3. Should we use the name?

I have no idea what you mean by "use the name."

4. What dangers exist in using/not using the name?

Again, not sure what you mean by "using the name." I doubt there is any "danger" in not using it. But anytime someone says "Jesus" (referring to the Son of God), the name is somehow "used" because "Jesus" literally means "YHWH [is] salvation [or savior]."

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yes
At some point they stopped pronouncing it so as to avoid any possibility of taking it in vain.
I have no idea what you mean by "use the name."
Again, not sure what you mean by "using the name." I doubt there is any "danger" in not using it. But anytime someone says "Jesus" (referring to the Son of God), the name is somehow "used" because "Jesus" literally means "YHWH [is] salvation [or savior]."

Actually, "Jesus" in Hebrew, is הוֺשֵׁעַ "Hoshea" and means "Salvation".

"Joshua" was named "Salvation" by his father, and Moses changed his name to "YHWH is salvation"
Num 13:16 These [are] the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called [H]Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.

הוֺשֵׁעַ Hosea or Hoshea or Oshea = "salvation" proper masculine noun

The angel used the Hebrew word for Salvation to name the LORD; "you shall call His name הוֺשֵׁעַ, for He shall save His people from their sins"

 

[jpr7]

Actually, "Jesus" in Hebrew, is הוֺשֵׁעַ "Hoshea" and means "Salvation".

"Joshua" was named "Salvation" by his father, and Moses changed his name to "YHWH is salvation"
Num 13:16 These [are] the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called [H]Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.

הוֺשֵׁעַ Hosea or Hoshea or Oshea = "salvation" proper masculine noun

The angel used the Hebrew word for Salvation to name the LORD; "you shall call His name הוֺשֵׁעַ, for He shall save His people from their sins"

yeshuasavedme,

I have no idea what this has to do in response to what I said. I known that "Jesus" comes from "Joshua." To validate what you said, I looked at every occurence of "Joshua" (YHWH is salvation) and in the Hebrew texts it is "Yehoshua" which includes the "YH" of YHWH. And that makes sense as to why in the Greek it's translated "Iesous" since the "Ie" are the transliteration of the "Yeh." And that makes sense why "Jesus" is derived from "Iesous" since the "Je" is the transliteration of the Greek "Ie."

To go even further, I went to Matthew 1:21 and looked at it. I found in the Greek "Iesous" and in Hebrew translations of the Greek Matthew, I found "Yeshua." So, no, I doubt your assertion that the name "Hoshea" is used there is correct. And not only that, but I doubt your assertion that "Jesus" is "Hoshea" in the Hebrew is also correct. You'll need to explain why there is a specific name "Yeshua (or Yehoshua)" in the Bible that refers to the one we know as "Joshua."

 

[yeshuasavedme]

yeshuasavedme,

... So, no, I doubt your assertion that the name "Hoshea" is used there is correct. And not only that, but I doubt your assertion that "Jesus" is "Hoshea" in the Hebrew is also incorrect. You'll need to explain why there is a specific name "Yeshua (or Yehoshua)" in the Bible that refers to the one we know as "Joshua."

Joesph and Mary were not told to give Jesus a Greek transliteration of a Hebrew word for a name, but to "Call His name הושע for He shall save His people from their sins".

As YHWH "come" in flesh, Jesus/ הושע came to save His people from their sins"; therefore, His name is called "Salvation" -Hebrew הושע

Num 13:16 These [are] the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called [H]Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.

www.blueletterbible.org Osheah1954הושע Howshea`
From יָשַׁע (H3467) Hosea or Hoshea or Oshea = "salvation"


Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

The book of "Hosea/Salvation" is symbolical and prophetic about the Messiah and His relationship as Saviour to His people, who bear His name -the New Man name, which name is not "Adam", but, "Israel".

The name the Messiah is called in Hebrew is not from the word Joshua, but is the word [H] "Oshea"

 

[jpr7]

Joesph and Mary were not told to give Jesus a Greek transliteration of a Hebrew word for a name, but to "Call His name הושע for He shall save His people from their sins".

As YHWH "come" in flesh, Jesus/ הושע came to save His people from their sins"; therefore, His name is called "Salvation" -Hebrew הושע

Num 13:16 These [are] the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called [H]Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.

www.blueletterbible.org Osheah1954הושע Howshea`
From יָשַׁע (H3467) Hosea or Hoshea or Oshea = "salvation"


Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

The book of "Hosea/Salvation" is symbolical and prophetic about the Messiah and His relationship as Saviour to His people, who bear His name -the New Man name, which name is not "Adam", but, "Israel".

The name the Messiah is called in Hebrew is not from the word Joshua, but is the word [H] "Oshea"

I really don't know what your point is (again) - so I'm going to respond to you as best as I understand the point you're trying to make. I don't understand why you keep asserting Jesus' name in Hebrew is Hoshea. As I pointed out, Jesus is derived from the Greek Iesous from the Hebrew Yeshua (shortened form of Yehoshua). This is evident from the transliterational values (using the English letters):

-English: J - E -- S --- U --- S
--Greek: I - E --- S - [OU] - S(nominative masculine ending)
Hebrew: Y - E - [SH] - U --- ' A(vowel added here by Masoretes for reasons unknown to me)

The transliteration of Yeshua in Iesous was evident in the Septuagint. If the Messiah's name really "is not from the word Joshua" then why do all the NT manuscripts have Jesus/Iesous/Yeshua, and why do all the Hebrew translations of the NT have Yeshua where Iesous occurs in the Greek? Not only that, but why is Hoshea son of Nun referred to as Joshua all throughout the OT (with the exception of a couple of places)? Why does the name "Joshua" continue to exist? Why is Jesus derived from that name? There's greater support that Jesus is "YHWH is salvation" than simply "salvation."

If you're going to keep asserting these things, then you will need to provide evidence. At this point, you're only providing opinion.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I really don't know what your point is (again) - so I'm going to respond to you as best as I understand the point you're trying to make. I don't understand why you keep asserting Jesus' name in Hebrew is Hoshea. As I pointed out, Jesus is derived from the Greek Iesous from the Hebrew Yeshua (shortened form of Yehoshua). This is evident from the transliterational values (using the English letters):

-English: J - E -- S --- U --- S
--Greek: I - E --- S - [OU] - S(nominative masculine ending)
Hebrew: Y - E - [SH] - U --- ' A(vowel added here by Masoretes for reasons unknown to me)

The transliteration of Yeshua in Iesous was evident in the Septuagint. If the Messiah's name really "is not from the word Joshua" then why do all the NT manuscripts have Jesus/Iesous/Yeshua, and why do all the Hebrew translations of the NT have Yeshua where Iesous occurs in the Greek? Not only that, but why is Hoshea son of Nun referred to as Joshua all throughout the OT (with the exception of a couple of places)? Why does the name "Joshua" continue to exist? Why is Jesus derived from that name? There's greater support that Jesus is "YHWH is salvation" than simply "salvation."

If you're going to keep asserting these things, then you will need to provide evidence. At this point, you're only providing opinion.

Joshua was named [H]oshea which means salvation, in Hebrew. I gave you the exact Scripture and meaning from the concordance of that name given to Joshua by his father, Nun.

[H]oshea is the Hebrew name and noun meaning "salvation" which is what the angel told them to call the Messiah. the angel did not give a Greek name to the Savior, and the name is Salvation in Hebrew, which is [H]oshea.

I am going by the Hebrew meaning of the name for [H]Oshea, the son of Nun, whom Moses renamed.

Here is the scripture again;
Num 13:16 These [are] the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Oshea [הושע Howshea` ] the son of Nun Jehoshua [יהושועYĕhowshuwa`].
The Hebrew word [H]Oshea means Salvation, and that is the name the angel said to call the Messiah, because "He will save His people..."


The Book of Hosea is written by a man named "Salvation" who is a prophet who is made a type and shadow of the Messiah of Israel.
No matter what you call Him in English, the Hebrew is הושע Howshea.

Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

But He has another name -lots of other names. One is Israel, in His New Creation human being flesh as the Firstborn of the second race of human beings. You'll find that in the OT, also. He gave His name, Israel, to Jacob as a sign of the adoption which was to come, in His own New Man name, when He came to Atone for His own people by His Kinsman/Redeemer blood.

 

[jpr7]

Joshua was named [H]oshea which means salvation, in Hebrew. I gave you the exact Scripture and meaning from the concordance of that name given to Joshua by his father, Nun.

And this is why I'm confused. You keep referring back to a specific person who was named originally Hoshea and renamed Yehoshua. But this is limited only to that specific person. The name Hoshea is not where Jesus comes from.

oshea is the Hebrew name and noun meaning "salvation" which is what the angel told them to call the Messiah. the angel did not give a Greek name to the Savior, and the name is Salvation in Hebrew, which is [H]oshea.

And this is where I disagree. You keep asserting that the angel said "Hoshea." I get from the Bible that it was "Yeshua." If it really were "Hoshea" as you claim, then the English translations would read "Osea." But pick up and English Bible and you see Matthew 1:21 use the name "Jesus." Pick up any Greek Bible and you the name "Iesous." Pick up any Hebrew translation of the New Testament and you see "Yeshua." The word originally was not Hoshea. And here is where you need to provide evidence for it. I already outlined the equivalency of the names Jesus - Iesous - Yeshua. My point being is that the name isn't Hoshea ("salvation") - it's Ye[ho]shua ("YHWH [is] salvation").

I am going by the Hebrew meaning of the name for [H]Oshea, the son of Nun, whom Moses renamed.

Here is the scripture again;
Num 13:16 These [are] the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Oshea [הושע Howshea` ] the son of Nun Jehoshua [יהושועYĕhowshuwa`].

The name Hoshea alone in that form applies to only one specific person in the OT. That name alone in that form doesn't apply to Jesus.

=yeshuasavedme]The Hebrew word [H]Oshea means Salvation,

and that is the name the angel said to call the Messiah, because "He will save His people..."

Again, the textual evidence all disagrees strongly with this. You quoted something you titled "Gesenius' Lexicon (Helps)" in this post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7421221-4/#post53877231. Incidentally, that is not Gesenius but Thayer's: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2424&t=KJV.

Look at the second line. Do you see the word "Jesus" and then there comes a parenthetical statement? Do you see that the first word there is in Hebrew, consisting of five characters, followed by the words "and acc."? That word is the Hebrew word for "Jesus." Hebrew reads from right to left. Do you see that the first character is like an apostrophe with a colon underneath it? That is a Hebrew yod with a shewa underneath it. In English those be "Ye (or Je)." The next two characters (reading from right to left) is a he and a holem-vav - the English equivalent would be "ho." So just from those first three characters, you have "Yeho-." The last two characters with the symbols underneath would be a shin, qibbuts, ayin, patach. Together those form "shu'a" (the single apostrophe represents the ayin which has no English equivalent). That makes the full name of Jesus in Hebrew "Yehoshua" - NOT "Hoshea." Virtually any competent linguist familiar with the Hebrew, Greek, and English would agree with what I just said.

The Book of Hosea is written by a man named "Salvation" who is a prophet who is made a type and shadow of the Messiah of Israel.

I've got no problem with this. But the name Jesus is not Hoshea in that form.

No matter what you call Him in English, the Hebrew is הושע Howshea.

I and all the texts disagree with you. You keep making this assertion but never proving it, never demonstrating it.

But He has another name -lots of other names. One is Israel, in His New Creation human being flesh as the Firstborn of the second race of human beings. You'll find that in the OT, also. He gave His name, Israel, to Jacob as a sign of the adoption which was to come, in His own New Man name, when He came to Atone for His own people by His Kinsman/Redeemer blood.

I don't have a problem that Jesus has other names. I don't know what you understand these other names. But I'm not sure how relevant this is to the discussion of the name Jesus.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

the name of the Messiah is called "Salvation". The angel told what to call Him. The angel did not speak a Greek name, and he did not speak the renamed word for "Joshua" who was first called "Salvation" by his father, Nun.
The angel said "Call His name Hoshea, for He shall save His people from their sins". The Hebrew words should be [transliterated]; "qara' Shem Hoshea Yesha Am chatta'ah "

 

[jpr7]

the name of the Messiah is called "Salvation". The angel told what to call Him. The angel did not speak a Greek name, and he did not speak the renamed word for "Joshua" who was first called "Salvation" by his father, Nun.
The angel said "Call His name Hoshea, for He shall save His people from their sins". The Hebrew words should be [transliterated]; "qara' Shem Hoshea Yesha Am chatta'ah "

Probably the 5th time you've asserted anything without demonstrating. The name of the Messiah is "YHWH [is] salvation" - that's virtually indisputable. I never said the angel "spoke a Greek name." But the angel never said "Hoshea" either. It's completely irrelevant that a person in the OT was first named Hoshea and then renamed Joshua. From what I can tell, you probably think that everyone named Joshua should originally have been named Hoshea.

If you're going to transliterate something, you'll need to tell me where you're transliterating from. First of all, your transliteration makes no sense at all. qara' as you have it is a 3rd person qal perfect verb, translated "he/she called." shem is simply "name"; am means "people"; chatta'ah is "sin." So the translation of what you just put would be: he/she called a name Hoshea Yesha people sin[noun not verb].

I found a Hebrew New Testament from Hebrew New Testament. I'm looking at Matthew 1:21 (from the Matthew PDF, second page, 4th line down, after what looks like a colon) and the part under discussion transliterates as: veqara'ta [and you will call] eth-shemo [his name] YESHUA' [JESUS] ci' [for] hu' [he] yoshiya' [will save] eth-'amo [his people] mechatto'tayhem [from their sins].

Again, you're in complete contradiction (notice you're not just contrary) to textual evidence, especially the Hebrew language. The Messiah's name isn't Hoshea - it's Yeshua. There isn't much more I can do to help you understand that.