yet ANOTHER question

[dogs4thewin]

Do Calvinists believe that people's choices impact what happens to them? For example, IF God controls everything then that would imply that for example smoking has no impact on rather you get cancer. I am NOT implying that all who smoke get cancer or that all who have cancer smoked. What I AM saying is that there are certain things people do to increase the likely hood of certain outcomes. Considering that God hates sin I cannot understand how you can say He ordains it. It is not as if God MAKES someone pick up their first cigarette. If I had broken the law (at a particular time) I would have no one to blame but myself for that choice not God not the devil not the sentencing judge no one but MYSELF. ( however at this point I did not break the law and have no record of actually doing so).

 

[kenrapoza]

According to Reformed theology, we sin because we are sinners acting in accordance with our fallen nature. God does not make us sin, it is our choice and we have nobody else to blame. However, Biblically speaking, we also know that God is sovereign over the affairs of men, and He works through the sinful actions of men to accomplish His purposes. It absolutely must be this way or else we could have no confidence in God's ability to fulfill His plans and promises. We see this in scripture too. We are specifically told that God hardened Pharoah's heart. Pharoah was sinful, yet God worked through his sinful actions for His own glory. And, of course the biggest example is the Cross itself! Jesus was innocent and it was certainly wrong for the Roman authorities to execute him as a criminal. Did God plan the cross of Christ? Did He preside over the outworking of history to bring about the sacrifice that brought us peace? Was sin involved in the execution of Christ? The answer to these questions is, of course, self evident.

 

[dogs4thewin]

According to Reformed theology, we sin because we are sinners acting in accordance with our fallen nature. God does not make us sin, it is our choice and we have nobody else to blame. However, Biblically speaking, we also know that God is sovereign over the affairs of men, and He works through the sinful actions of men to accomplish His purposes. It absolutely must be this way or else we could have no confidence in God's ability to fulfill His plans and promises. We see this in scripture too. We are specifically told that God hardened Pharoah's heart. Pharoah was sinful, yet God worked through his sinful actions for His own glory. And, of course the biggest example is the Cross itself! Jesus was innocent and it was certainly wrong for the Roman authorities to execute him as a criminal. Did God plan the cross of Christ? Did He preside over the outworking of history to bring about the sacrifice that brought us peace? Was sin involved in the execution of Christ? The answer to these questions is, of course, self evident.

The Bible also says that Pharoah hardened his own heart, matter of a fact, that is mentioned before it says that God hardened his heart.

 

[twin1954]

The Bible also says that Pharoah hardened his own heart, matter of a fact, that is mentioned before it says that God hardened his heart.

We are not robots. God controls every circumstance, every influence and even the thoughts of the heart in order to bring to pass exactly what He has determined before to be done. We see it all through the historical teachings of the Scriptures. If God had not intended the Fall of Adam we would know nothing of His mercy and grace. If Joseph's brothers hadn't sold him into Egypt then there woild have been no Exodus to picture for us the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. In fact Joseph told his brothers that they meant it for evil but God meant it for good. Gen 50:20 Every recorded event in the history of the Bible in some way shows us something of Christ and His Gospel. God worked it out that way in the lives of those people in every detail even though they didn't know why it was happeneing the way it was. Man does exactly as he wishes and desires, evil included, and God purposed it all to the glory of His name and the good of His people.

The simple fact is that if God doesn't control every detail then He really can't be trusted. Something might happen that takes Him by surprise and then He would have to change His plans. If He changes He can't be trusted. what God isn't in absolute control of controls Him. Whatever controls Him is His God.

 

[kenrapoza]

Yeah...and the thrust of the passage is clearly that God was sovereign over that situation. Thus, God hardened Pharoah's heart also, as the passage says. My post made several major points about God's sovereign control, even over human sinfulness. What do you think of the Cross? Your reply aboit Pharoah's heart seemed to cavalierly evade the whole issue that you wanted to discuss in the opening post.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Yeah...and the thrust of the passage is clearly that God was sovereign over that situation. Thus, God hardened Pharoah's heart also, as the passage says. My post made several major points about God's sovereign control, even over human sinfulness. What do you think of the Cross? Your reply aboit Pharoah's heart seemed to cavalierly evade the whole issue that you wanted to discuss in the opening post.

What do I think about the cross I think it's great, BUT It was Jesus' will to die on the cross. If He did not have free will why would we find Him in the garden praying that the "cup" would be removed from Him?
By the way, Twin How can you say that if God did not control every detail He could not be trusted? There are many people out there who are very trustworthy and yet they do not control what anyone but themselves does.

 

[kenrapoza]

Was it sinful for the Roman empire to execute Jesus as a criminal?

 

[twin1954]

What do I think about the cross I think it's great, BUT It was Jesus' will to die on the cross. If He did not have free will why would we find Him in the garden praying that the "cup" would be removed from Him?
By the way, Twin How can you say that if God did not control every detail He could not be trusted? There are many people out there who are very trustworthy and yet they do not control what anyone but themselves does.

Think about it. You are equating God to man! Man cannot be trusted precisely because he controls nothing. When something he thinksk he controls doesn't do or act according to his plan he must change plans. Therefore he cannot be trusted to do what he intends. Man is untrustworthy because he fails. do you honestly think that God fails?

I suspect that you are not really interested in finding answers but only in debating. Since that is the case I suggest you move to the debate a calvinist room.

 

[twin1954]

What do I think about the cross I think it's great, BUT It was Jesus' will to die on the cross. If He did not have free will why would we find Him in the garden praying that the "cup" would be removed from Him?
By the way, Twin How can you say that if God did not control every detail He could not be trusted? There are many people out there who are very trustworthy and yet they do not control what anyone but themselves does.

Do you think that the cross was an afterthought of God or planned by Him?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Do you think that the cross was an afterthought of God or planned by Him?

planned it was also planned by Him that the cross would never be needed. Yes that was sinful.

 

[kenrapoza]

Agreed. But was it sinful for the Roman authorities to execute an innocent man as if he were a criminal? Or were they acting out of righteous motives?

 

[twin1954]

planned it was also planned by Him that the cross would never be needed. Yes that was sinful.

So His original plan failed?

 

[dogs4thewin]

So His original plan failed?

He created the garden to be perfect. When sin entered the world He then killed everyone off and started again in Gen. 12 Can I get staff to move my posts to the debate forum?

 

[twin1954]

He created the garden to be perfect. When sin entered the world He then killed everyone off and started again in Gen. 12 Can I get staff to move my posts to the debate forum?

He didn't create the Garden to be perfect He created it very good. Show me one place in the Scriptures where it even intimates that He created it to be perfect. Your tradition is showing.


BTW, you don't really want to debate Calvinists.You ain't up for it.

 

[dogs4thewin]

He didn't create the Garden to be perfect He created it very good. Show me one place in the Scriptures where it even intimates that He created it to be perfect. Your tradition is showing.


BTW, you don't really want to debate Calvinists.You ain't up for it.

He created Us in His image, so if He is perfect and we are created in His image then we were created to be perfect and be with Him.

 

[twin1954]

He created Us in His image, so if He is perfect and we are created in His image then we were created to be perfect and be with Him.

We were created in His image but we weren't created like Him. Even Adam didn't have many of the attributes of God. Adam was never said to be perfect he was said to be good. God created him good and against all his intimate knowledge and fellowship with God he sinned. He, knowing what true goodnes is, shook his fist in God's face and rebelled against Him. The Scriptures are clear that Adam wasn't deceived Eve was. Adam did what he did knowing full well what he was doing. And he did it exactly according to the purpose of God.

 

[twin1954]

I am done arguing with a child.

 

[dogs4thewin]

We were created in His image but we weren't created like Him. Even Adam didn't have many of the attributes of God. Adam was never said to be perfect he was said to be good. God created him good and against all his intimate knowledge and fellowship with God he sinned. He, knowing what true goodnes is, shook his fist in God's face and rebelled against Him. The Scriptures are clear that Adam wasn't deceived Eve was. Adam did what he did knowing full well what he was doing. And he did it exactly according to the purpose of God.

Why would He do that? God said do not eat of that tree. When Eve and then Adam ate from the tree they hid. If God controled every detail He would have A not provided that tree for them to CHOOSE to eat of or made it to where it didn't matter.

 

[twin1954]

Why would He do that? God said do not eat of that tree. When Eve and then Adam ate from the tree they hid. If God controled every detail He would have A not provided that tree for them to CHOOSE to eat of or made it to where it didn't matter.

This is my last answer. Notice that God didn't say if you eat of the fruit but when you do.

 

[dogs4thewin]

This is my last answer. Notice that God didn't say if you eat of the fruit but when you do.

I know that I have the will to disobey God. How? because I have done it I have seen it done I will do what I will do. God's plans will be fulfilled ( I never DENIED that BUT if we choose not to be on board with those plans He loves us enough to let us.