Yet another "Mary" thread . . . . .

[racer]

Adam knew Eve and they conceived after the Fall.

What is your point? Would they not have conceived if the fall had never occurred?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Can you imagine having to live up to being Jesus's little brother?

You just wait, I'll take care of you when we get home... Why cant you be more like Jesus!

Seriously, all of Christ siblings were older than he. James was the youngest son of Joseph by his wife who had already passed away.

Joseph was 80 when Christ was born, and was chosen by the Temple Priests because they believed that he would not defile her.

Forgive me...

 

[racer]

It may be your understanding, but we have clearly shown history disagrees with you.

You also might try reading outside of the Western Fathers to see what the entire Church believed.

Such statements simply are not true. You can show where some fathers believed as you assert, but not all of them. Some clearly did not agree . . . . . .

 

[£amb]

Can you imagine having to live up to being Jesus's little brother?

You just wait, I'll take care of you when we get home... Why cant you be more like Jesus!

Seriously, all of Christ siblings were older than he. James was the youngest son of Joseph by his wife who had already passed away.

Joseph was 80 when Christ was born, and was chosen by the Temple Priests because they believed that he would not defile her.

Forgive me...

Funny...

Is there somewhere I can read about Joseph having children before being married? Do you have link for info? To be honest, when the Nativity movie came out, that was the first time I had heard about that. Maybe it had been mentioned before and I never too notice of it. I sincerely just want to read and understand it...Thanks...

 

[racer]

As a man I cannot imagine having sex with the mother of Jesus Christ, my God, married or not.....

Most men--in general--can not imagine their mothers having sex period.

with that said....I cannot imagine Joseph, being the man of God he was, even thinking of having sex with Mary...to the orthodox mind this is unthinkable

You can not restrict Joseph to your limited views.

my question to protestants is:

Why do you think Mary had to be like any "normal woman" and have sexual relationship?

Because, for it to be any other way, it kind of defeats the purpose of Jesus becoming Man and being born of a woman.

If God was afraid of Him suffering impurities, He could have hatched him from an egg or formed Him from sand just as He did Adam.

Jesus went into the dessert and resisted the temptations of the Devil? What do you believe the reasoning was for that? To show us that we can overcome sin and resist Satan.

Did Joseph, after the birth of Jesus Christ, know the meaning of His birth and who He was?

If Joseph did know, then maybe he would have had a hard time having marital relations with Mary. However, evidence indicates he was not aware. There's even evidence that Mary was unaware of the true extent of Jesus' mission.

 

[Asinner]

What is your point? Would they not have conceived if the fall had never occurred?

They were virgins in the Garden. Mary's Purity is like it was in the Garden, both physically and spiritually.

Some ECF's have said that the reason they conceived after the Fall was to preserve humanity. Before the fall, Adam and Eve were immortal, but after they sinned and death entered, there became a need to preserve them.

Love,
Christina

 

[racer]

Can you imagine having to live up to being Jesus's little brother?

Good grief! We all have to live up to Jesus. But, nevermind that. Remember Mary and His "brethren" who wished to pull him away from the crowd because they thought he was loco? Doesn't look like Jesus' "brethren" be they cousins or whatnot were too reverent of Him.

Seriously, all of Christ siblings were older than he. James was the youngest son of Joseph by his wife who had already passed away.

Where would I find the source of this information?

Joseph was 80 when Christ was born, and was chosen by the Temple Priests because they believed that he would not defile her.

Does it say this in the Proto of James? Because, they rushed her out of the temple because they were afraid of her mensas defiling her . . . . .

 

[racer]

Remaining a virgin after the birth is the only proof that she was ever a virgin in the first place.

How is that proof? How would all the people around Mary know she remained a virgin?

If you found something broken, you could argue all day as to when it was broken... before or after... but if it remained unbroken how will we then say when it broke.

Forgive me...

Again, exactly how was it ascertained that Mary was never "broken?"

 

[racer]

They were virgins in the Garden. Mary's Purity is like it was in the Garden, both physically and spiritually.

Some ECF's have said that the reason they conceived after the Fall was to preserve humanity. Before the fall, Adam and Eve were immortal, but after they sinned and death entered, there became a need to preserve them.

Love,
Christina

But, that does not answer my question. Would they have not bore children if the Fall had never occurred?

 

[IamAdopted]

They were virgins in the Garden. Mary's Purity is like it was in the Garden, both physically and spiritually.

Some ECF's have said that the reason they conceived after the Fall was to preserve humanity. Before the fall, Adam and Eve were immortal, but after they sinned and death entered, there became a need to preserve them.

Love,
Christina

They were not virgins.. They were naked and not ashamed...God told them to multiply in the garden before the fall.. So therefore the marriage bed was made pure before the Lord for He created it.. It was for man that He did this...

 

[jrmronald]

I know, we've just about beat this into the ground. But, I have some questions and instead of further confusing another OP, I decided to start my own.

If you are tired of the topic or feel the discussion is fruitless, feel free not to participate.

I've never really gotten into a real in depth discussion on this subject. Because of this I'm sure the information I am looking for has been given here but I've missed it.

So, with all of that said. Here are my questions. How do proponents of Mary's Perpetual Virginity explain away these verses:

Matt 1:24; Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Matt 1:25; And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This is quite a heavy indication that once Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph came together as husband and wife. I admit it is not definitive evidence, so please explain how we can infer that they NEVER came together as husband and wife.


Second are these verses:

Matt 13:55; Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?


Matt 13:56; And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?

Okay, I'm do know that the argument has to do with the word used for "brethren, brothers and sisters." So explain to me what this argument entails. Is the word used the only word that would work in these verses? Is there only one word that identifies "brothers/sisters/cousins?" If not, what other word would work? Does the Catholic bible use a different word?

Anyhow, participate if you wish or ignore the post if you prefer . . . . .

For your answer go to the summa theologica part 3 question 120
tolle ledge
jrm

 

[IamAdopted]

The reason the Mary was a virgin was so the people could not say that Man had conceived Him.. Just as to this day they say the disciples rolled away this big heavy rock and hid His body.. Mary testifies to what God said would happen...

 

[racer]

A Holy Tradition by word.

In fact... please name "one" Holy Tradition "of word" that you do keep.

Forgive me...

Well, how about first you tell us where we are told to hold to a "Holy" tradition by word.

To requote you:

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

I don't see any mention of any "Holy" tradition here. The reference "by word" does not refer back to "what." It refers back to "how." In this case how these "traditions" are received . . . by word or by epistle. In other words, if I never read one of the epistles, but I hear the Gospel, I am just as bound as I would be if I read the very words myself . . . .

 

[IamAdopted]

Joseph also could bear witness.. This is why Mary was a virgin.. This is why she didn't have to stay a virgin.. She has a human married to a human for the reasons people get married.. TO live a life together and bear children..

 

[racer]

Hi. This thread has been interesting, but I feel there is no real edification as far as Jesus goes, so I am going to bow out and I love all of you as brothers and sisters in the Lord and King Jesus. Bless all of you.

Thanks for participating, though. I understand how frustrating it gets when some cave-in to the need to mock others . . . We just have to rise above it.

 

[racer]

Joseph also could bear witness.. This is why Mary was a virgin.. This is why she didn't have to stay a virgin.. She has a human married to a human for the reasons people get married.. TO live a life together and bear children..

Great point! I can't believe it never occurred to me. If Mary and Joseph had never consumated their marriage, then it would have been speculation only that she was a virgin when Jesus was conceived, nevermind after. However, IF she and Joseph did consumate her marriage, he would have known for sure . . . . . hmmmmmm . . . .

 

[Asinner]

But, that does not answer my question. Would they have not bore children if the Fall had never occurred?

And St. John Damascene writes:
Virginity was practiced in Paradise… After the fall... to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved.

 

[racer]

Now, since Mary is filled with Grace, and most Blessed....
Anyone wish to tell me why she would have a need to have siblings for God?

The same reason "God" needed a human mother . . . . .

Doesnt the OT tell us that a 'gate' the Lord passes through, that no man will pass through...?

Was Jesus fully Man?

 

[racer]

And St. John Damascene writes:
Virginity was practiced in Paradise… After the fall... to keep the race from dwindling and being destroyed by death, marriage was devised, so that by the begetting of children the race of men might be preserved.

Christina,

Would you please answer my question?

 

[Asinner]

They were not virgins.. They were naked and not ashamed...God told them to multiply in the garden before the fall.. So therefore the marriage bed was made pure before the Lord for He created it.. It was for man that He did this...

Thanks for your 21st century opinion.