Yeshua, Lord of Hosts

gadar perets

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You made the following comment with respect to my post (#58) of John 14:9 and your reply (#60 ). This is that portion of your posted reply to me (#60).
I was referring to the following post (#70):

AbbaLove wrote: The only thing you are proving beyond a shadow of doubt is that apparently you don't believe Yeshua's Words (the Word of God - John 1:1,14) when He says, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" - monotheism.

gadar perets wrote: Of course I believe Yeshua's words in John 14:9. I just don't put a false interpretation on them as you do. He was not telling Philip that he was the Heavenly Father, but that he was the express image of the Father because the Father was living IN him (John 14:10-11). Then in verse 12 he tells Philip that he is going to his Father. How can he go to the Father if he IS the Father? How can Yeshua say that he is one witness and his Father is a second witness if he is the Father (John 8:17-18)?​

Refute that please.
 
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visionary

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"Your point about the Catholic Mary being worshiped is a man made designation, not a fact..."

You're missing the point. Just because person A holds a higher view of X than person B does, does not make person A's view more accurate. (X being Mary, Yeshua, or anyone else.)
Accurate is accurate... one is truth and the other is false. .. Believing in the lie doesn't make it true, even if billions believe it.
 
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visionary

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Provide your proof that the word "Lord" in Philippians 2:11 means "YHVH".
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir. this title is given to: God
 
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gadar perets

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The problem you've run into is your own undoing when you say "YHWH of Hosts and "Yeshua Lord of heavenly hosts."

Do you seriously believe YHWH has His Hosts; while Yeshua is Lord of heavenly hosts ?? (polytheism)

Adonai (plural) is referring to the divine manifest nature of the deity of God.
The Father was "YHWH of hosts" throughout the OT. He ruled all the hosts. Eventually He gave that rule to Yeshua after he became flesh. Now Yeshua rules the hosts that YHWH of hosts gave him. Eventually the Son will return all rule to his Father and YHWH will rule all the hosts again (1 Corinthians 15).
 
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gadar perets

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κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir. this title is given to: God
I know kurios means "Lord". What gives you the right to distort the Word by applying "YHVH" to Yeshua in Ph 2:11?
 
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Hoshiyya

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Accurate is accurate... one is truth and the other is false. .. Believing in the lie doesn't make it true, even if billions believe it.

Exactly. You are so right. So saying "my X is more awesome than yours" is not a valid argument, even if it may be a valid observation.
 
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AbbaLove

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"Your point about the Catholic Mary being worshiped is a man made designation, not a fact..."

You're missing the point. Just because person A holds a higher view of X than person B does, does not make person A's view more accurate. (X being Mary, Yeshua, or anyone else.)

Seems like your forgetting the following scripture and therefore misinterpreting Visionary's post.

John 14:6
Yeshua answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

More prove that the Father and Son are One. The problem garad is having is using his human logic "own understanding" (Prov. 3:5) instead of trusting the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Assumptions.


Hebrews 1:5 does not say that "angels are not called sons of God". Not sure how you concluded that from the text.


Not only is that another assumption, but water existed before light. How did that come to exist without Yeshua since all things were supposedly made by him?

"Assumptions"

How is it an assumption? I provided you with a quote, and then explained how the same theology mentioned in the quote was understood in historical Judaism. Really that quote is a perfect example of ancient Jewish theology, reflecting the same thinking found in Targumim.

IF INDEED no man has ever seen God, what to make of the passages that say God was seen, and walked in the cool of the day, and even wrestled with Jacob?

"Hebrews 1:5 does not say that "angels are not called sons of God""

It literally says that, but in the form of a question. Are you just trying to contradict ?

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrews 1:5)​

Compare:
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Psalms 82:6)​

"Not only is that another assumption"

No, it's a conclusion. You asked a question, I gave you the answer. How I came to that can be discovered from the verses and the in-depth studies I provided you with.
 
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gadar perets

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Seems like your forgetting the following scripture and therefore misinterpreting Visionary's post.

John 14:6
Yeshua answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

More prove that the Father and Son are One. The problem garad is having is using his human logic "own understanding" (Prov. 3:5) instead of trusting the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It amazes me how much you read things into the text and miss the obvious. There is nothing in John 14:6 proving the Father and Son are one. However, the verse clearly shows the Father is NOT the Son. We cannot come to the Father (being A) except through the Son (being B). Yeshua is the door through which we enter to approach the Father.

Another thing; you keep mentioning how the Father and Son are one and I totally agree with that. How do you understand that verse? Is it saying the Son IS the Father or is it saying something else?
 
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gadar perets

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"Assumptions"

How is it an assumption? I provided you with a quote, and then explained how the same theology mentioned in the quote was understood in historical Judaism. Really that quote is a perfect example of ancient Jewish theology, reflecting the same thinking found in Targumim.

IF INDEED no man has ever seen God, what to make of the passages that say God was seen, and walked in the cool of the day, and even wrestled with Jacob?
Why are you bringing this up if we are discussing Hebrews 1:5? I agree no man has seen God. They were seeing His malak that represents him. As Yahweh's shaliach, the malak has the authority to speak as YHWH. To say the malak was the Son is also an assumption and reading into the text.

"Hebrews 1:5 does not say that "angels are not called sons of God""
It literally says that, but in the form of a question. Are you just trying to contradict ?

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrews 1:5)​
I am not trying to contradict. I do not see it as you do. He never said to an angel, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" because no angel was ever begotten by Him. That does not exclude angels from being sons. Neither does the latter phrase exclude angels from being sons. It is only referring to what the Father specifically said about His Son. Although the Father never made that specific statement to an angel, that doesn't mean angels could not be His sons, especially not in the sense Yeshua is a Son (through being begotten).

Compare:
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Psalms 82:6)​
This is spoken of mortal men who will eventually die (vs.7)

"Not only is that another assumption"
No, it's a conclusion. You asked a question, I gave you the answer. How I came to that can be discovered from the verses and the in-depth studies I provided you with.
You are concluding by assumption that the light of Genesis 1:3 was the Son being created. You didn't address the water part. Water existed before light. How did that come to exist without Yeshua since all things were supposedly made by him?
 
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AbbaLove

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How can he go to the Father if he IS the Father?
Because the Father and Son are One!

The supernatural divine manifest nature of God. Using human logic of one's "own understanding" (Prov. 3:5) is futile. That's why some find it difficult to wrap their mind around some of Yeshua's teaching as well as certain portions of Paul's inspired letters ...

Ephesians 2:6-7
6 That is, God raised us up with the Messiah Yeshua and seated us with Him in heaven,
7 in order to exhibit in the ages to come how infinitely rich is His grace, how great is His kindness toward us who are united with the Messiah Yeshua.​
Deity Of God
(monotheism)

"Let there be Light ... and God saw that the Light was Good"

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with with God,
and the Word was God"

"and without Him was not anything made that was made"

"I AM That I AM"

"The Lord said to my Lord"

"and they will call His name Immanuel which being interpreted is
God with us"

So, how can you say, Show us the Father"


"Thomas said, My Lord and my God"

"Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed”

***
YHWH, Lord of Heavenly Hosts ~ Immanu'El, Lord of Heavenly Hosts

(Yeshua = Immanu'El)

 
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gadar perets

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Because the Father and Son are One!

The supernatural divine manifest nature of God. Using human logic of one's "own understanding" (Prov. 3:5) is futile. That's why some find it difficult to wrap their mind around some of Yeshua's teaching as well as certain portions of Paul's inspired letters ...​
Yea, right. And did you know the "supernatural divine manifest nature of God" became the Apostle Paul? Paul was really our Heavenly Father. He even said so in 1Corinthians 4:15:

For though you have ten thousand instructors in Messiah, yet have you not many fathers: for in Messiah Yeshua I have begotten you through the gospel.

Of course, I'm being sarcastic just to show you that one can claim anything to be true and base it on the "supernatural divine manifest nature of God" and then accuse others of not understanding the Word or using only human logic.

Exalting your supposed spiritual superiority over my supposed feeble human logic proves to me that you have no defense. Therefore, you resort to personal attacks on my spirituality.

Anyone who claims the Son is our Heavenly Father is sadly deceived. The Father is identified as YHWH in Psalm 2:2. Yeshua sat down on the right hand of YHWH after his ascension (Psalm 110:1). Did he sit down beside himself? Did he divide himself into two beings so he could next to himself?

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (The Son) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he (the Father) hath put all things under his (the Son's) feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he (the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (the Son).
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Son), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (The Father) that put all things under him, that God (the Father) may be all in all.
This passage utterly destroys your false teaching. Is the Son going to deliver up the Kingdom to himself? Did the Son put all things under his own feet except himself? Will the Son be subject to himself after death is destroyed?

Please answer these questions and address these passages.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Why are you bringing this up if we are discussing Hebrews 1:5? I agree no man has seen God. They were seeing His malak that represents him. As Yahweh's shaliach, the malak has the authority to speak as YHWH. To say the malak was the Son is also an assumption and reading into the text.


I am not trying to contradict. I do not see it as you do. He never said to an angel, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" because no angel was ever begotten by Him. That does not exclude angels from being sons. Neither does the latter phrase exclude angels from being sons. It is only referring to what the Father specifically said about His Son. Although the Father never made that specific statement to an angel, that doesn't mean angels could not be His sons, especially not in the sense Yeshua is a Son (through being begotten).





This is spoken of mortal men who will eventually die (vs.7)


You are concluding by assumption that the light of Genesis 1:3 was the Son being created. You didn't address the water part. Water existed before light. How did that come to exist without Yeshua since all things were supposedly made by him?

I brought up Hebrews in relation to the inheritance of names, which is a topic in that epistle. In chapter 1 it separates between the sonship of Yeshua and the sonship of the other angels. All the angels are sons of God, but it underlines the fact that Yeshua's role as son is more unique and special than the sonship of the angels.

"I agree no man has seen God. They were seeing His malak that represents him. As Yahweh's shaliach, the malak has the authority to speak as YHWH. To say the malak was the Son is also an assumption and reading into the text."

His angel and his Son are repeatedly called by the same titles.... their functions are overlapping.... they are imputed with the same actions.....
This is covered in the links I sent you.

"This is spoken of mortal men who will eventually die (vs.7)"

To quote Bryan Huie:
In this psalm, we see God take His place as the leader of the divine council. The psalmist records that, during this meeting of the council, God criticizes the "gods" ('elohim) for their unfairness and wickedness in carrying out the responsibilities He has assigned to them. Asaph tells us that the sin and rebellion of the 'elohim have shaken the foundations of the earth. He records God's warning to these divine spirit entities, that their fate for corruption and disobedience will be to "die like men" (Heb. 'adam). Since clearly all men will "die like men," attempting to apply this Scripture to human rulers, as some scholars do, is illogical. Asaph ends the psalm by exhorting God to judge the earth and its divine rulers, because all nations truly belong to Him and not to them.


"You are concluding by assumption that the light of Genesis 1:3 was the Son being created."

Actually I gave you the conclusion reached through the Bible verses and in-depth studies I referenced and directed you to. Did you read any of these verses or studies yet? If you want to know how this conclusion was reached see the articles.

For your convenience here they are again:

Revelation 3:14, Colossians 1:15, Proverbs 8:24-26.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=God-Is-One

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Christ-Old-Testament

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Yeshua

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Messiah-New-Testament

Scripture literally calls Yeshua the beginning of God's creation. I think this refers to the beginning of living beings, not objects.
But he could probably have been created prior to day 1.

The word "all" is frequently used in a non-literal way. If all always means all, then scripture doesn't make sense. Furthermore Yeshus had a part in designing and altering everything. Whatever God created, Yeshua would decorate and modify in various ways.
 
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gadar perets

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His angel and his Son are repeatedly called by the same titles.... their functions are overlapping.... they are imputed with the same actions.....
This is covered in the links I sent you.
Shared titles do not make two beings the same being. Case in point; Cyrus and Yeshua both being YHWH's "maschiach".

"This is spoken of mortal men who will eventually die (vs.7)"
To quote Bryan Huie:
In this psalm, we see God take His place as the leader of the divine council. The psalmist records that, during this meeting of the council, God criticizes the "gods" ('elohim) for their unfairness and wickedness in carrying out the responsibilities He has assigned to them. Asaph tells us that the sin and rebellion of the 'elohim have shaken the foundations of the earth. He records God's warning to these divine spirit entities, that their fate for corruption and disobedience will be to "die like men" (Heb. 'adam). Since clearly all men will "die like men," attempting to apply this Scripture to human rulers, as some scholars do, is illogical. Asaph ends the psalm by exhorting God to judge the earth and its divine rulers, because all nations truly belong to Him and not to them.
Angels cannot die.

And Yahshua answering said unto them, The sons of this age marry, and are given in marriage, but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to the angels; and are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection." (Luke 20:34-36).​


"You are concluding by assumption that the light of Genesis 1:3 was the Son being created."
Actually I gave you the conclusion reached through the Bible verses and in-depth studies I referenced and directed you to. Did you read any of these verses or studies yet? If you want to know how this conclusion was reached see the articles.

For your convenience here they are again:

Revelation 3:14, Colossians 1:15, Proverbs 8:24-26.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=God-Is-One

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Christ-Old-Testament

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Yeshua

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Messiah-New-Testament

Scripture literally calls Yeshua the beginning of God's creation. I think this refers to the beginning of living beings, not objects.
But he could probably have been created prior to day 1.
Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 are referring to Yeshua being the beginning and firstborn of YHWH's new creation, not the old creation.

Proverbs 8:24-26 -
One need only read verses 1-12 to realize that a pre-existant Son is not speaking in verses 24-26. The Scriptures declare the speaker to be wisdom. The glorious wisdom Yahweh possessed before He created all things is personified in these verses. Notice, also, that wisdom is personified as a female, not a male. Proverbs 8:1 reads, "Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?" And Proverbs 9:1 says, "Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars." If Yeshua pre-existed as the epitomy of wisdom, why does Revelation 5:12 say he is worthy to receive wisdom? Surely an all-wise pre-existant being has no need of further wisdom.

1 Corinthians 1:30 says, "But of him are ye in Messiah Yeshua, who of [Yahweh] is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" This verse declares that Yeshua was "made unto us wisdom." It does not say he existed as wisdom in the past. Psalm 104:24 says, "O Yahweh, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches." Yahweh used His great wisdom in the creation of all things. It was like a workman at His side.

The word "all" is frequently used in a non-literal way. If all always means all, then scripture doesn't make sense. Furthermore Yeshus had a part in designing and altering everything. Whatever God created, Yeshua would decorate and modify in various ways.
John 1:3 is erroneously applied to the Son to prove he created every single thing.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

While "all" may not be literal, the bolded phrase is clear. Water was made, but not by the Son if the Son was not created until light was made. The fact is, the logos of John 1 was not a living being, but the Father's spoken words and thoughts. The logos was a thing, not a living being. That is why translations that preceded the KJV used "it" instead of "him" in their translations. One example is Tyndale's translation;

"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
Several other major translations do the same such as the "Great Bible", "Thomas Matthew Bible" and the "Geneva Bible".
 
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AbbaLove

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Of course, I'm being sarcastic just to show you that one can claim anything to be true and base it on the "supernatural divine manifest nature of God" and then accuse others of not understanding the Word or using only human logic.
It is well then to know that you also believe in the "supernatural divine manifest nature of God" (deity of God) ... now that we know you believe the Word is Yeshua/Imman'El as the supernatural divine manifestation of the Son of God (John 17:5).

John 1:14 CJB
The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw His Sh’khinah, the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth
John 17:5 CJB
5 Now, Father, glorify me alongside yourself. Give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed.​
Revelation 19:13 CJB
He was wearing a robe that had been soaked in blood, and the name by which He is called is, “THE WORD OF GOD.”
(If you prefer another translation please let me know and i will post those verses)

Perhaps, where you got off on the wrong foot (contradiction) is when you once said, "I do not make Yeshua into a god or worse "God" (YHWH)." Can you understand why such a statement had some not only wondering, but thinkong you might be of a JW persuasion. However, it's been reassuring to later hear you refer to Yeshua as "my elohim" and then even later refer to Yeshua as "Elohim" although of "lesser degree" than His Father.

Along the way you upgraded your recognition of Yeshua from "my elohim" to "Elohim" but added that Yeshua is an Elohim of "lesser degree" than his Father.

It is not helpful to make sarcastic remarks now that we know you also believe in the deity of God (supernatural divine manifest nature of YHWH). If you do not believe in the deity of God (Col. 2:9) then it's understandable that you would be at odds with Messianics that believe ...

"He is God in the flesh.... can't get any clearer than that"
 
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gadar perets

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It is not helpful to make sarcastic remarks now that we know you also believe in the deity of God (supernatural divine manifest nature of YHWH). If you do not believe in the deity of God (Col. 2:9) then it's understandable that you would be at odds with Messianics that believe ...

"He is God in the flesh.... can't get any clearer than that"
The phrase "deity of God" is a ridiculous man made phrase not found in Scripture. Colossians 2:9 does not teach the "deity of God". It teaches that the fullness of the ONLY TRUE GOD was living inside of His Son Yeshua. It does not teach us His Son Yeshua was God. The only true Elohim lives in all true believers.

As for "God in the flesh", we don't find that phrase in Scripture either.

Also, you failed to respond to post #154. Perhaps visionary can help you out if you need it.
 
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