Yeshua, Lord of Hosts

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you not remember that Yeshua said that ALL AUTHORITY is given Him? Matthew 28:18 Adonai Sabaoth...Lord of Hosts! The Father has given this Authority to Him.

Without entering into or even knowing the "of hosts" differences;
yes
it is totally beyond our reach(understanding)
that
ALL POWER , ALL AUTHORITY ,
is
subject to the NAME OF Y'SHUA.
for healing,
for miracles,
for prayer,
for life,
for YHWH'S blessing,
for everything - ALL authority in the NAME OF Y'SHUA...
Y'SHUA (JESUS) is the KING OF KINGS, MESSIAH, SAVIOR!

As used all through the NEW TESTAMENT - "in the NAME OF Y'SHUA",
rise up and be healed !

(contrasted with assemblies congregations worldwide
who don't know the NAME OF Y'SHUA ! (it seems - because they never talk about HIM or with HIM) Instead they are pursuing the blessing of toronto (not a blessing) in error and resulting in disaster) (all kinds of holy ghost's stuff without JESUS even present )

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And who is the Father? Yeshua's Father is YHWH (Psalm 2:2,7). And who is YHWH?
YHWH and YHWH of hosts are one and the same being. YHWH (Yeshua's Father) is YHWH of hosts.

I don't disagree with what you have said...however, YHWH has given ALL AUTHORITY to His Son Yeshua...including AUTHORITY over The Hosts of Heaven. What about that can you not accept?

 

[gadar perets]

I don't disagree with what you have said...however, YHWH has given ALL AUTHORITY to His Son Yeshua...including AUTHORITY over The Hosts of Heaven. What about that can you not accept?

I know full well that Yeshua has been given all authority and power and is the King/Commander of the hosts of heaven. That does not make him YHWH of hosts. In the same way, just because Yeshua is now King Yeshua, that does not make him King YHWH. YHWH (Yeshua's Father) was once the King of Israel. They rejected Him for a human king. The day will come when King Yeshua will turn the Kingdom over to his Father and once again YHWH will be King YHWH (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

YHWH of hosts is the Father, a specific being separate from the Son. If you are going to say the Son is YHWH of hosts, then you rob the Father of one of His names/titles. What ever glory the Father is to receive through those verses that identify Him as YHWH of hosts you have now given to the Son. That is a tremendous error.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I know full well that Yeshua has been given all authority and power and is the King/Commander of the hosts of heaven. That does not make him YHWH of hosts. In the same way, just because Yeshua is now King Yeshua, that does not make him King YHWH. YHWH (Yeshua's Father) was once the King of Israel. They rejected Him for a human king. The day will come when King Yeshua will turn the Kingdom over to his Father and once again YHWH will be King YHWH (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

YHWH of hosts is the Father, a specific being separate from the Son. If you are going to say the Son is YHWH of hosts, then you rob the Father of one of His names/titles. What ever glory the Father is to receive through those verses that identify Him as YHWH of hosts you have now given to the Son. That is a tremendous error.

I am not sure what we are discussing, that YHVH has given Yeshua His Son absolute authority or some kind of referendum on your beliefs regarding The Trinity. YHVH has given it to Yeshua His Son. "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I AM well pleased". John 8:54 .... Hebrews 9:2-3 ...John 14:9

I am not discussing Trinitarian Theology here, just answering regarding Yeshua having been given all authority from His Father...including ALL AUTHORITY of the Hosts of Heaven.

 

[gadar perets]

I am not sure what we are discussing, that YHVH has given Yeshua His Son absolute authority or some kind of referendum on your beliefs regarding The Trinity. YHVH has given it to Yeshua His Son. "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I AM well pleased". John 8:54 .... Hebrews 9:2-3 ...John 14:9

I am not discussing Trinitarian Theology here, just answering regarding Yeshua having been given all authority from His Father...including ALL AUTHORITY of the Hosts of Heaven.

I am not discussing trinitarian theology either. The OP was trying to show that the Jew whose skirt is grasped in Zechariah 8:20-22 is Yeshua, the LORD of hosts. I was proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yeshua is NOT YHWH of hosts/the LORD of hosts. You then tried to refute my belief by saying;

Do you not remember that Yeshua said that ALL AUTHORITY is given Him? Matthew 28:18 Adonai Sabaoth...Lord of Hosts! The Father has given this Authority to Him.​

So you agreed with the OP that Yeshua is YHWH of hosts/the LORD of hosts. I am trying to help you and others understand why he is not. Your argument that he is YHWH of hosts because he has been given all authority is an assumption, especially since it was YHWH of hosts that gave Yeshua that authority. The OP is also incorrect because it was YHWH of hosts/the LORD of hosts that was speaking through Zechariah to tell us about that Jew. He was not speaking about himself (the Elohim of Israel), but about a Jew who He is the Elohim of. That Jew may very well be Yeshua, but it cannot possibly be YHWH of hosts.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I am not discussing trinitarian theology either. The OP was trying to show that the Jew whose skirt is grasped in Zechariah 8:20-22 is Yeshua, the LORD of hosts. I was proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yeshua is NOT YHWH of hosts/the LORD of hosts. You then tried to refute my belief by saying;

Do you not remember that Yeshua said that ALL AUTHORITY is given Him? Matthew 28:18 Adonai Sabaoth...Lord of Hosts! The Father has given this Authority to Him.​

So you agreed with the OP that Yeshua is YHWH of hosts/the LORD of hosts. I am trying to help you and others understand why he is not. Your argument that he is YHWH of hosts because he has been given all authority is an assumption, especially since it was YHWH of hosts that gave Yeshua that authority. The OP is also incorrect because it was YHWH of hosts/the LORD of hosts that was speaking through Zechariah to tell us about that Jew. He was not speaking about himself (the Elohim of Israel), but about a Jew who He is the Elohim of. That Jew may very well be Yeshua, but it cannot possibly be YHWH of hosts.

Either you believe what Yeshua said or you don't, it is that simple. Yeshua having ALL Authority given from His Father implies He is Lord of the Heavenly Hosts. I am not saying anything regarding if Yeshua is or is not "YHVH of Hosts". I am saying that Yeshua NOW has ALL Authority given to Him by His Father.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Either you believe what Yeshua said or you don't, it is that simple.

Yet,
(yes),
same as when Y'SHUA MESSIAH was talking with
the religious leaders (re priests, pastors// scribes pharisees lawyers)
and told them they did have the keys to the kingdom !
yes, they did,
yet they refused to enter HIS KINGDOM!

because (partly as written elsewhere) they preferred the approval of men more than the approval of YHWH -
or in other words they were afraid of the others and knew they would be rejected (same as today) if they proclaimed Y'SHUA and YHWH'S KINGDOM).

 

[AbbaLove]

Either you believe what Yeshua said or you don't, it is that simple. Yeshua having ALL Authority given from His Father implies He is Lord of the Heavenly Hosts. I am not saying anything regarding if Yeshua is or is not "YHVH of Hosts". I am saying that Yeshua NOW has ALL Authority given to Him by His Father.

I AM (YHVH of Hosts) who I AM (Yeshua: Lord of Hosts)​

John 10:30
"I and the Father are One."
John 20:28
Thomas said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

The concept by some that Yeshua is "an elohim" and YHVH is "an Elohim" (as he believes) is possibly a carry over from the Pharisees and Rabbinic Judaism who believe Moshiach will be conceived by natural means between a man and a woman. Just as they (Rabbinic Judaism) can't wrap their mind around the idea that Yeshua was born of a virgin (Son of God), so too a few Messianics find it difficult to accept the fact that Adonai Yeshua is co-equal making Yeshua just as much the LORD of Hosts as YHVH.

And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.​

Equality With YHVH​

John 5:18-20
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.

The problem is not with those that believe that both YHVH and Yeshua are the LORD of Hosts, but rather with those that don't believe that Yeshua is the LORD of Hosts (co-equal with YHVH) having ALL authority given to Him by His Father.

 

[gadar perets]

Either you believe what Yeshua said or you don't, it is that simple. Yeshua having ALL Authority given from His Father implies He is Lord of the Heavenly Hosts. I am not saying anything regarding if Yeshua is or is not "YHVH of Hosts". I am saying that Yeshua NOW has ALL Authority given to Him by His Father.

Now you are saying something different. Here you say Yeshua is "Lord of Heavenly Hosts", but previously you said Yeshua was "Adonai Sabaoth...Lord of Hosts!". "Adonai Sabaoth" is the false way of saying "YHWH Sabaoth" by those who refuse to use the Name that is in the text and who choose to replace it with "Adonai". I fully agree that Yeshua is the Lord of the heavenly hosts, but he is NOT YHWH of hosts. I also agree he has all authority now, given by his Father who is YHWH of Hosts.

 

[gadar perets]

I AM (YHVH of Hosts) who I AM (Yeshua: Lord of Hosts)​

​

Thus saith AbbaLove, but not thus saith YHWH.

The concept by some that Yeshua is "an elohim" and YHVH is "an Elohim" (as he believes) is possibly a carry over from the Pharisees and Rabbinic Judaism who believe Moshiach will be conceived by natural means between a man and a woman. Just as they (Rabbinic Judaism) can't wrap their mind around the idea that Yeshua was born of a virgin (Son of God), so too a few Messianics find it difficult to accept the fact that Adonai Yeshua is co-equal making Yeshua just as much the LORD of Hosts as YHVH.

I believe Yeshua was begotten by YHWH and born of a virgin. I also believe in monotheism wherein there is only one true Elohim, Yeshua's Father, as Yeshua himself taught us (John 17:3). I refuse to believe in your polytheism view.

Equality With YHVH

​

John 5:18-20
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.

The problem is not with those that believe that both YHVH and Yeshua are the LORD of Hosts, but rather with those that don't believe that Yeshua is the LORD of Hosts (co-equal with YHVH) having ALL authority given to Him by His Father.

NO Equality With YHWH
​

John 5:18 records the false interpretation of Yeshua's words by the Jews. Below are the true words of Yeshua and the Apostle Paul.

John 14:28, "...for my Father is greater than I."
John 10:29, "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all..."
John 13:16, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant [Yeshua] is not greater than his lord [Yahweh]; neither he that is sent [Yeshua] greater than he that sent him [Yahweh]."
1 Corinthians 11:3 - "...the head of Messiah is God."
Philippians 2:6 - "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

If you believe Yeshua is "the LORD of Hosts", then produce you Scriptural evidence.

 

[AbbaLove]

While Mashiach Yeshua was on earth as a suffering servant (Lamb of YHVH) it's only natural He would refer to YHVH as His Father being conceived by the Holy Spirit. Yeshua as a suffering servant was the perfect lamb of YHVH without spot or blemish as an atonement for the sins of both Jew and non-Jew.

Philippians 2:6-11
6 Though He was in the form of God, He did not regard equality with God
something to be possessed by force.
7 On the contrary, He emptied himself, in that He took the form of a slave
by becoming like human beings are. And when He appeared as a human being,
8 He humbled Himself still more by becoming obedient even to death — death on a stake as a criminal!
9 Therefore God raised Him to the highest place and gave him the name above every name;
10 that in honor of the name given Yeshua, every knee will bow —
in heaven, on earth and under the earth —
11 and every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is Adonai — to the glory of God the Father.

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”​

(Yeshua didn't correct him, but instead commended Thomas)​

Yeshua having ALL Authority given from His Father implies He is Lord of the Heavenly Hosts. I am not saying anything regarding if Yeshua is or is not "YHVH of Hosts". I am saying that Yeshua NOW has ALL Authority given to Him by His Father.

I fully agree that Yeshua is the Lord of the heavenly hosts, but he is NOT YHWH of hosts. I also agree he has all authority now, given by his Father who is YHWH of Hosts.

The Title of this Thread is Yeshua, Lord of Hosts ... NOT YHVH of hosts. You believe that Yeshua is the Lord of heavenly hosts and YHVH of hosts. Yet you maintain that Yeshua is "an elohim" and YHVH "Elohim". And yet it is good to hear that you believe that Yeshua is the Lord of heavenly hosts (e.g. Rev. 19:11-16).

Revelation 19:11-16
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS
​

Is not the title of Adonai (Lord) in the Tanakh used as a reference to both the Lord of Heavenly Hosts and YHVH of hosts ... I AM that I AM (montheism). Polytheism is generally understood to refer to religions that believe in many gods. Psalm 110:1 says, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." (monotheism ~ I AM that I AM)​

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that in honor of the name given Yeshua, every knee will bow —
in heaven, on earth and under the earth —
11 and every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is Adonai —
to the glory of God the Father.

Yeshua says in John 14:9, "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" (monotheism)

​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Now you are saying something different. Here you say Yeshua is "Lord of Heavenly Hosts", but previously you said Yeshua was "Adonai Sabaoth...Lord of Hosts!". "Adonai Sabaoth" is the false way of saying "YHWH Sabaoth" by those who refuse to use the Name that is in the text and who choose to replace it with "Adonai". I fully agree that Yeshua is the Lord of the heavenly hosts, but he is NOT YHWH of hosts. I also agree he has all authority now, given by his Father who is YHWH of Hosts.

I am not saying anything different. Adonai Sabaoth is "Lord of Hosts". Yeshua IS Adonai.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thus saith AbbaLove, but not thus saith YHWH.


I believe Yeshua was begotten by YHWH and born of a virgin. I also believe in monotheism wherein there is only one true Elohim, Yeshua's Father, as Yeshua himself taught us (John 17:3). I refuse to believe in your polytheism view.

NO Equality With YHWH
​

John 5:18 records the false interpretation of Yeshua's words by the Jews. Below are the true words of Yeshua and the Apostle Paul.

John 14:28, "...for my Father is greater than I."
John 10:29, "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all..."
John 13:16, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant [Yeshua] is not greater than his lord [Yahweh]; neither he that is sent [Yeshua] greater than he that sent him [Yahweh]."
1 Corinthians 11:3 - "...the head of Messiah is God."
Philippians 2:6 - "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

If you believe Yeshua is "the LORD of Hosts", then produce you Scriptural evidence.

I see, this IS about The Trinity. Yeshua's Father, yes, YHVH of Hosts, but has given ALL Authority to His Son Yeshua which makes Yeshua Adonai Sabaoth...He has NOW ALL Authority given to Him by His Father.

 

[AbbaLove]

NOTE: Please refrain from using the Eastern Orthodox or RCC word "trinity" as this MJ forum does not refer to the divine nature of God as "trinity"

Title of Thread: Yeshua, Lord of Hosts
(to which gadar perets fully agrees)
​

I fully agree that Yeshua is the Lord of the heavenly hosts, but he is NOT YHWH of hosts. I also agree he has all authority now, given by his Father who is YHWH of Hosts.

John 1:1-3, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing made had being (see Genesis 1:1 ~ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
14 The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw His Sh’khinah, the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

John 14:9
9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

(Yeshua didn't correct him, but instead commended Thomas)
​

Mark 2:5-7, 27-28
5 Seeing their trust, Yeshua said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Some Torah-teachers sitting there thought to themselves,
7 “How can this fellow say such a thing? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins except God?”
27 Then He said to them, “Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat;
28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of Shabbat.”

Genesis 2:3
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He rested from all the work of creating that He had done (see John 1:1-3,14).

 

[gadar perets]

While Mashiach Yeshua was on earth as a suffering servant (Lamb of YHVH) it's only natural He would refer to YHVH as His Father being conceived by the Holy Spirit. Yeshua as a suffering servant was the perfect lamb of YHVH without spot or blemish as an atonement for the sins of both Jew and non-Jew.

I agree.

The Title of this Thread is Yeshua, Lord of Hosts ... NOT YHVH of hosts. You believe that Yeshua is the Lord of heavenly hosts and YHVH of hosts. Yet you maintain that Yeshua is "an elohim" and YHVH "Elohim". And yet it is good to hear that you believe that Yeshua is the Lord of heavenly hosts (e.g. Rev. 19:11-16).

I do not believe Yeshua is YHVH of hosts. You need to learn the difference between lord of heavenly hosts, the LORD of hosts

​

Is not the title of Adonai (Lord) in the Tanakh used as a reference to both the Lord of Heavenly Hosts and YHVH of hosts

No. I am pressed for time and will finish replying this evening.​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

NOTE: Please refrain from using the Eastern Orthodox or RCC word "trinity" as this MJ forum does not refer to the divine nature of God as "trinity"

Title of Thread: Yeshua, Lord of Hosts
(to which gadar perets fully agrees)
​

​

Are you saying all "Messianics" are not Trinitarian?​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You need to learn the difference between lord of heavenly hosts, the LORD of hosts.

That is the same thing! Adonai Sabaoth or Adonai Tzavaot What other heavenly hosts do you know of? Do we need to add Shamayim? Adonai Yeshua now has this AUTHORITY.

 

[AbbaLove]

Thus saith AbbaLove, but not thus saith YHWH. If you believe Yeshua is "the LORD of Hosts", then produce your Scriptural evidence.

Thus says the Word of God
​

John 1:1-3, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing made had being (see Genesis 1:1 ~ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
14 The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw His Sh’khinah, the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

John 14:9
9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

(Yeshua didn't correct him, but instead commended Thomas)
​

Mark 2:5-7, 27-28
5 Seeing their trust, Yeshua said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Some Torah-teachers sitting there thought to themselves,
7 “How can this fellow say such a thing? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins except God?”
27 Then He said to them, “Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat;
28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of Shabbat.”

Genesis 2:3
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He rested from all the work of creating that He had done (see John 1:1-3,14).​

You've come around to fully agree that Yeshua is the Lord of the heavenly hosts and you now omit LORD when you say "YHWH of hosts."

I fully agree that Yeshua is the Lord of the heavenly hosts, but he is NOT YHWH of hosts. I also agree he has all authority now, given by his Father who is YHWH of Hosts.

Jesus' own Words, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).

Did you purposely twice forget to insert LORD (YHWH [LORD] of Hosts)? Being that you now fully agree that Yeshua is the Lord of the heavenly hosts. How do you plan to explain yourself if you believe Yeshua is the Lord of the heavenly hosts and YHWH is the LORD of the Heavenly Hosts.

So, how can you disapprove of the title of this thread, Yeshua, Lord of Hosts when Visionary did not say, Yeshua, LORD of Hosts.

​

 

[daq]

Does the following passage have any impact the conversation at hand?

Zechariah 4:8-9
8 Moreover the word (dvar) of YHWH came unto me, saying:
9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and you shall know that YHWH Tsabaoth has sent me unto you!

Zechariah 4:8-9 Septuagint
8 και εγενετο λογος κυριου προς με λεγων
9 αι χειρες ζοροβαβελ εθεμελιωσαν τον οικον τουτον και αι χειρες αυτου επιτελεσουσιν αυτον και επιγνωση διοτι κυριος παντοκρατωρ εξαπεσταλκεν με προς σε

Zechariah 4:8-9 (from the Septuagint)
8 And the Logos (Dvar) of YHWH came unto me, saying:
9 The hands of Zorobabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands shall finish it: and you shall know that YHWH Pantokrator (Tsabaoth) has sent me unto you!

 

[gadar perets]

I AM that I AM (montheism). Polytheism is generally understood to refer to religions that believe in many gods. Psalm 110:1 says, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." (monotheism ~ I AM that I AM)​

Two or more gods is polytheism. You have the Father as God and the Son as God -two Gods - polytheism.
​

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that in honor of the name given Yeshua, every knee will bow —
in heaven, on earth and under the earth —
11 and every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is Adonai —
to the glory of God the Father.

How do you know the word in Hebrew would be Adonai?

Yeshua says in John 14:9, "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" (monotheism)

So you are declaring the Son is the Father???