Yes 1844 is unbiblical, but why abandon the Sabbath also ?

woobadooba · Dec 11, 2008

Mankin said:
The antagonism is not necessary.

I can see how my response could be interpreted as 'rude'; and I will therefore admit that I could have expressed myself with more tact. Nevertheless, because I lacked tact in my response that doesn't mean I was being antagonistic, at least not in the sense that you are using the word anyway.

In other words, I wasn't being hostile; rather, I was just simply being honest about my feelings on the subject as I have been down this road many times before, and know what its end looks like well enough to read the signs that indicate if a person is heading there or not.

woobadooba · Dec 11, 2008

tall73 said:
The point is that the Sabbath is not an inherently moral command but is a sign.

Just because a person is not aware of a moral command, that doesn't mean that person doesn't have a moral responsibility to keep it; nor does it make it any less moral if that person doesn't know that it exists. It's the 'nature' of a moral that matters most here; and once that is made known that is when a person begins to understand that he should have been doing that, 'ought to', all along.

Byfaithalone1 · Dec 11, 2008

Mankin said:
It's been scientifically proven that health improves if humans have a day of rest.

Can you provide a link to that proof so we can evaluate it for ourselves?

If God wished to radically change, or get rid of the 4th commandment,

Do you believe He radically changed the other sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23?

why is there not as much emphasis placed on it?

What is the emphasis you see? For example, what do we notice in John 5:16-20?

Also, why did all the conflicts between the Gentiles and the Jews involve ceremonial laws like circumcision and not the Sabbath issue? Surely this issue would cause more controversy.

Please read Matthew 12, Mark 2, Mark 3, Luke 6, Luke 13, Luke 14, John 7 and John 9 and then reevaluate your position.

Also, Jesus rarely mentioned the ceremonial laws,

Actually, the phrase "ceremonial laws" appears nowhere in Scripture. It is a man-made distinction. However, we note that Jesus not only mentioned the practices set out in Leviticus 23, but there is evidence that He observed them (see Matthes 26, Mark 14, Luke 2, Luke 22, John 2, John 6, John 11 and John 13).

Q: Should we do as He did?

Yet he brought up the issue of Sabbath multiple times and he never suggested that the Sabbath rest was null and void(merely that he was the master of the Sabbath).

Q: Did Jesus work on the sabbath?

BFA

LogosRhema · Dec 11, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Can you provide a link to that proof so we can evaluate it for ourselves?

Do you believe He radically changed the other sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23?

What is the emphasis you see? For example, what do we notice in John 5:16-20?

Please read Matthew 12, Mark 2, Mark 3, Luke 6, Luke 13, Luke 14, John 7 and John 9 and then reevaluate your position.

Actually, the phrase "ceremonial laws" appears nowhere in Scripture. It is a man-made distinction. However, we note that Jesus not only mentioned the practices set out in Leviticus 23, but there is evidence that He observed them (see Matthes 26, Mark 14, Luke 2, Luke 22, John 2, John 6, John 11 and John 13).

Q: Should we do as He did?

Q: Did Jesus work on the sabbath?

BFA

Can you provide a link to that proof so we can evaluate it for ourselves?

You honestly need proof? lol

Avonia · Dec 11, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Q: Did Jesus work on the sabbath?

I don't think most of us (SDAs) are able to have a neutral conversation when it comes to challenging our views of Sabbath. It's intrinsic to our differentiation - and differentiation is intrinsic to our purpose.

Adventtruth · Dec 11, 2008

woobadooba said:
This is true!

BUT!

Who made the 'seventh day' holy, man or God?

You can regard any day as holy if you would like; but you better make sure you regard what God declares to be holy too.

I don't regard the 7th day as holy. Now what?

AT

Byfaithalone1 · Dec 11, 2008

Avonia said:
I don't think most of us (SDAs) are able to have a neutral conversation when it comes to challenging our views of Sabbath. It's intrinsic to our differentiation - and differentiation is intrinsic to our purpose.

Having been SDA for 30+ years, I can certainly understand and respect that.

I would note again the original post in this thread. I have been responding to a person who claims that non-SDAs should/must set aside the sabbath. My motive has not been to tell SDAs not to keep the sabbath or to challenge their views of the sabbath. My intent has been to explain the reasons why I now view the sabbath differently (per the request of the original post).

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · Dec 11, 2008

LogosRhema said:
You honestly need proof? lol

We've heard that it has been scientifically proven. I'd like to read the study. I think it would be fascinating.

BFA

Adventtruth · Dec 11, 2008

LogosRhema said:
I delight in God's word! Of course the ten commandments are great! I don't focus too much on them because Christ summed them up into one thing... Love. If we follow Love we won't (in theory leaving out our tendency to do the opposite) break the ten commandments. Don't get me wrong, the Ten Commandments are important, but if we put an emphasis on the law... sin will prevail. If we put an emphasis on Love and follow Love as Christ did, Grace prevails. At least from what I've gathered thus far.

I see it like this.

In math there are several equations that can sum up to the right answer. Some equations are harder than others. Typically in the college setting the professor will teach us the harder equation first then show us an easier way. I see the law of the prophets in this way. It may be good to follow the law, but following exactly is near impossible for a human. BUT Christ summed the law of the prophets into one thing that connects them all, love. If we follow the path of love, which is still challenging, we'll find more freedom as we are focusing on one thing rather than a... intimidating list.

If the law of the prophets are centered on love, then if we follow love as God can teach us... Tell me where we can go wrong?

You have been moved from death into life. Tho you sin in the natural, your faith in Gods promised Son has preserved you in the Spirit from falling.

AT

Adventtruth · Dec 11, 2008

JonMiller said:
If the 10 commandments tell us how to love (which I Agree with), then why ignore them?

JM

Because Christ is your focus.

AT

Avonia · Dec 11, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Having been SDA for 30+ years, I can certainly understand and respect that.

I would note again the original post in this thread. I have been responding to a person who claims that non-SDAs should/must set aside the sabbath. My motive has not been to tell SDAs not to keep the sabbath or to challenge their views of the sabbath. My intent has been to explain the reasons why I now view the sabbath differently (per the request of the original post).

BFA

I've found you delightfully neutral and clear in this way. Refreshing.

My greatest concern for the SDA church is whether we are teachable enough to evolve.

Byfaithalone1 · Dec 11, 2008

Avonia said:
I've found you delightfully neutral and clear in this way. Refreshing.

My greatest concern for the SDA church is whether we are teachable enough to evolve.

It's a valid concern, one that I also have for myself and for the church I currently attend. We all have a tendency to cling tightly to things that God may wish to remove or revise.

BFA

Adventtruth · Dec 11, 2008

Mankin said:
The Fourth Commandment is both a way to love God and to rejunevate yourself. It's been scientifically proven that health improves if humans have a day of rest.[/quote[

You may decide you want to show love to God by sabbath observance, but does rest on the 7th day improve health more that rest on the 6th day?

There is an important point to consider in this debate. If God wished to radically change, or get rid of the 4th commandment, why is there not as much emphasis placed on it?

Click to expand...

There is. You've been looking in the wrong places...try understanding the covenants.

Also, why did all the conflicts between the Gentiles and the Jews involve ceremonial laws like circumcision and not the Sabbath issue? Surely this issue would cause more controversy.

Click to expand...

The Sabbath is ceremonial...and you don't even do that as God said.

Also, Jesus rarely mentioned the ceremonial laws, and if he did he mostly dismissed them like the washing of the hands. Yet he brought up the issue of Sabbath multiple times and he never suggested that the Sabbath rest was null and void(merely that he was the master of the Sabbath).

Click to expand...

And what does being the Lord of the ceremonial Sabbath day suggest to you?

AT

Adventtruth · Dec 11, 2008

LogosRhema said:
They are centered around love, not teach us to love. After 8000 years it took Christ to reveal this to us when it was right before us. Hence why the greatest commandment was essentially the Golden Rule. We can find more about love as the center of everything as Spiritual Gifts without love are worthless. Christ wasn't emphasizing the Law, He was emphasizing what the law was centered upon, the core, the motivation, what makes it.

If you want to honor your laws. Then follow love and you will easily honor the law.

I agree.

AT

LogosRhema · Dec 11, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
We've heard that it has been scientifically proven. I'd like to read the study. I think it would be fascinating.

BFA

It is fasinating.

When you have time look up scientific studies for the body on fasting... That will get your brain going.. Men's Health did a study on that, VERY good.

Adventtruth · Dec 11, 2008

woobadooba said:
Just because a person is not aware of a moral command, that doesn't mean that person doesn't have a moral responsibility to keep it; nor does it make it any less moral if that person doesn't know that it exists. It's the 'nature' of a moral that matters most here; and once that is made known that is when a person begins to understand that he should have been doing that, 'ought to', all along.

Is the sabbath a sign as Tall suggested? If so what is it a sign of?

AT

woobadooba · Dec 11, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Is the sabbath a sign as Tall suggested? If so what is it a sign of?

AT

That He is God and we are not!

Thus its observance sounds very MORAL to me.

Adventtruth · Dec 11, 2008

woobadooba said:
That He is God and we are not!

Its sad to find out that you are not god and that He is by the sign of the sabbath. Is this why you continue to try and observe it, to remind yourself that you are not god and He is? I suspect that those who do, have no real connection to the Holy Spirit. Am I understanding you correctly?

You do know that the bible tells us what the sabbath is a sign of don't you?

AT

woobadooba · Dec 11, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Its sad to find out that you are not god and that He is by the sign of the sabbath. Is this why you continue to try and observe it, to remind yourself that you are not god and He is? I suspect that those who do, have no real connection to the Holy Spirit. Am I understanding you correctly?

You do know that the bible tells us what the sabbath is a sign of don't you?

AT

You missed the whole point of what I said.

And I am not going to waste my time giving you an explanation if you are going to have that kind of attitude towards me.

JonMiller · Dec 11, 2008

Adventtruth said:
Because Christ is your focus.

AT

Would Christ direct us not to love? I agree, though, if the 10 commandments aren't getting in the way of Christ then that is a problem. I am not so sure it is the 10 commandments problem though, I think it is more likely the people.

Christ even said this himself, when he attacked the pharisees but not the commandments.

JM

Yes 1844 is unbiblical, but why abandon the Sabbath also ?

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