WWJD

[Ricky M]

Matthew 18:
15“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, a b so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.


And what do I do with these?

 

[Quartermaine]

You make some valid points, some of which is why I am on the fence about this.

But the Bible is pretty clear about how God feels concerning homosexuality.

that depends a lot on your personal interpretations. The condemnation in 1 Corinthians for example has no linguistic support for example.

 

[Quartermaine]

My wife IS my partner. What's your point?

your partner....not your "partner"

 

[Quartermaine]

I've heard some churches try to rationalize homosexuality as being ok under the NT. They use the passage about the woman caught in adultery as an example. But what was Jesus' last words to that woman - "everyone else is sinful so go ahead with what you are doing", or "go and sin no more". Just because Jesus gave her a pass on the punishment, doesn't mean He approved of what she was doing.

more likely he recognized that she wasn't guilty of adultery...consider where was the man she was caught in the act of adultery with?

 

[bekkilyn]

Matthew 18:
15“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Remember that Paul was giving this advice to the church in Corinth in which everyone basically belonged the same assembly of believers. If you and your nephew do not belong to the same church, then how would you propose to follow this advice, which is more about ejecting someone from that assembly if they don't follow the standards. Paul wasn't telling them to go and travel over to Ephesus and start ejecting people from the Ephesian church. His letter to the Corinthians was dealing with issues there. Perhaps Paul might give the same advice to the Ephesians, but it would be up to them and not up to the church in Corinth to deal with people in the Ephesian church.

With that said, verse 17 says to then treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. How did Jesus treat tax collectors? He definitely didn't shun them. Whether or not you agree with your nephew that he is a Christ follower doesn't change the way you are to treat him. We are still commanded to love as Christ loved.

1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, a b so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

If your nephew isn't a member of your church, then you can't put him out of the fellowship of your church. Paul did not in any way tell the Corinthians to eject any of these people from their own families. Basically, he planted the church there in Corinth, set the standards, and expects those who consider themselves a part of the church to follow them. Your nephew's church may have some different rules and it is up to them to decide who is and who is not welcome as members there.

Note that this verse is one the Inquisition used to justify their torture and murder of people who didn't believe the way they believed. They thought that if the corrupted flesh was destroyed, then they were actually saving those people. Not to say that's the direction you personally are heading, but just pointing out the extremes that some have taken.

And what do I do with these?

Treat them in the context and the intent for which they were written, but not necessarily in the way you would treat a family member whose beliefs differ from yours.

 

[Curtis.Hilliker]

I pray for conviction for people who struggle with homosexuality. Not conviction like hey your worse then everyone else and your gonna burn forever, but for Godly sorrow that leads to repentance. I would pray for that regularly and let God do the real work on his heart.

 

[raindog75]

and

Matthew 18:
15“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, a b so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

And what do I do with these?

It seems to me at some point that we need to consider the broader import of scripture as well. The answer's not always going to there for us wrapped up in a tidy bow. Jesus as well as the prophets spoke at great length about love, mercy, compassion. Jesus also warned us about the legalism of the Pharisees. You don't have to endorse his choice, but are you loving your nephew by cutting him off? Are you prepared to confront him and bring others along with you as the passage from Matthew talks about? I think the passages that talk about excising someone from the community are at least in part for the purpose of convicting the person. Do you think as a result of you cutting him off, that your nephew's going to repent and divorce his husband? Or is it far more likely that that will hurt someone that you seem to have a great deal of respect for? Will that make him more likely to want to embrace the faith when he is rejected by his uncle in the name of that same faith? Will that cause your sister more or less pain? I think perhaps some are having a reaction because the whole topic comes across as a bit abstract and bloodless when making the choice that you're contemplating will have real world consequences and damaging ones at that and, when all is said and done, likely not result in any come to Jesus moment on the part of your nephew.

 

[Ricky M]

your partner....not your "partner"

Still no point

 

[Ricky M]

more likely he recognized that she wasn't guilty of adultery...consider where was the man she was caught in the act of adultery with?

I often wondered why the man got a pass. And it says she was caught in the act. "Go and sin no more" means that yes she had been sinning.

 

[Ricky M]

Remember that Paul was giving this advice to the church in Corinth in which everyone basically belonged the same assembly of believers. If you and your nephew do not belong to the same church, then how would you propose to follow this advice, which is more about ejecting someone from that assembly if they don't follow the standards. Paul wasn't telling them to go and travel over to Ephesus and start ejecting people from the Ephesian church. His letter to the Corinthians was dealing with issues there. Perhaps Paul might give the same advice to the Ephesians, but it would be up to them and not up to the church in Corinth to deal with people in the Ephesian church.

With that said, verse 17 says to then treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. How did Jesus treat tax collectors? He definitely didn't shun them. Whether or not you agree with your nephew that he is a Christ follower doesn't change the way you are to treat him. We are still commanded to love as Christ loved.



If your nephew isn't a member of your church, then you can't put him out of the fellowship of your church. Paul did not in any way tell the Corinthians to eject any of these people from their own families. Basically, he planted the church there in Corinth, set the standards, and expects those who consider themselves a part of the church to follow them. Your nephew's church may have some different rules and it is up to them to decide who is and who is not welcome as members there.

Note that this verse is one the Inquisition used to justify their torture and murder of people who didn't believe the way they believed. They thought that if the corrupted flesh was destroyed, then they were actually saving those people. Not to say that's the direction you personally are heading, but just pointing out the extremes that some have taken.



Treat them in the context and the intent for which they were written, but not necessarily in the way you would treat a family member whose beliefs differ from yours.

Every. Single. Word. in the Bible was written to every. single. one . of us. If you don't believe so, then start tearing out the pages you don't think apply to you. Then after a year, look at how much of God's word you've dismissed as meaning less. (Or you could buy an MRV ) Sure, the post mark on the envelope said Corinth, but the the words are meant for all of us.

You do make a point, that this should be an issue for his church, except he doesn't go to one. And does not the church include the aggregate body of believers? Are we really to turn a blind eye on a brother's problems just because he doesn't go to the same church as we do?

My belief is that he's pretty much abandoned his 'Christian' upbringing, but I don't know if he's said the actual words yet and I don't want to be the one to give him cause to. Because once apostate, there's no going back. And the belief of our heart and the confession of our lips is the only thing that saves or destroys us.

 

[Ricky M]

I pray for conviction for people who struggle with homosexuality. Not conviction like hey your worse then everyone else and your gonna burn forever, but for Godly sorrow that leads to repentance. I would pray for that regularly and let God do the real work on his heart.

And that's true. I understand that satan has had generations to sow infirmity into our very DNA. I know gay Christians who struggle to stay celibate and I have no problem being around them. And I don't have a problem being around gays who aren't saved. But the Bible says a brother who rejects correction gets rejected himself. And that we are held accountable for presenting that correction.

Shunning them doesn't mean you stop loving them, it just means you don't agree to the presence of willful sin.

 

[raindog75]

Every. Single. Word. in the Bible was written to every. single. one . of us. If you don't believe so, then start tearing out the pages you don't think apply to you.

So then, assuming you go ahead with shunning him, have you considered how and when you're going to make contact with him to point out his sin, as Matthew 18:15-17 instructs? Have you decided who the one or two others are that you will bring along if he doesn't listen? And also who you'll enlist from the larger church if he still refuses to listen?

 

[bekkilyn]

Every. Single. Word. in the Bible was written to every. single. one . of us. If you don't believe so, then start tearing out the pages you don't think apply to you. Then after a year, look at how much of God's word you've dismissed as meaning less. (Or you could buy an MRV ) Sure, the post mark on the envelope said Corinth, but the the words are meant for all of us.

You do make a point, that this should be an issue for his church, except he doesn't go to one. And does not the church include the aggregate body of believers? Are we really to turn a blind eye on a brother's problems just because he doesn't go to the same church as we do?

My belief is that he's pretty much abandoned his 'Christian' upbringing, but I don't know if he's said the actual words yet and I don't want to be the one to give him cause to. Because once apostate, there's no going back. And the belief of our heart and the confession of our lips is the only thing that saves or destroys us.

There are plenty of parts in the bible that do not apply directly to me or to you or to anyone who isn't Jewish, as just a few examples. For example, I do not need to remember when I was a slave in Egypt because those words were written to the Israelites and their descendents. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was written *to* the church in Corinth. You and I are just reading his mail centuries later. Yes, we can learn from what he wrote, but he wasn't writing *to* us. He was writing to address particular issues (some of them very major) that were happening in the Corinthian church in *his* time in response to messages he received concerning things that were going on there. Again, we can learn from his letter, but we are not his target audience any more than the Ephesian church. They got their own letter to address their own issues.

While the church does mean the entire body of believers in Christ when it comes to salvation, that was not specifically what Paul was addressing in his letter, and to treat it as such in the 21st century when we have thousands of different denominations all over the world who consider themselves Christians, all with differing beliefs as to how Christianity is to be practiced, it is impractical. Are we going to have bands of Baptists from the U.S. traveling over to Lutheran churches in Germany demanding that all the Lutheran sinners (as defined by Baptists) be cast out of the Lutheran congregations?

It sounds silly, but if you think you are held accountable for the behavior of your nephew for this reason, then you will equally be held accountable for the behavior of *every* Christian *everywhere* should you hear of them sinning and somehow have to manage to get them ejected from the entire body of Christian believers every time it happens and you hear about it.

If your nephew doesn't go to a church, there is no church fellowship to cast him from. If he doesn't consider that he even has a problem, nothing you say or do is going convince him otherwise, and there is also the consideration that what you say to him could be wrong and you end up doing far more harm than good along with an irreparably damaged relationship. The only behavior you can control is your own.

Not to mention that by using this passage in Corinthians as justification to eject him from all of Christianity, how have you determined that you have the authority to speak for ALL of Christianity everywhere to do so? The result would really be only that you are personally casting him away only from yourself (and whichever couple people from your own church, who are likely complete strangers to your nephew, you choose to bring with you as your witnesses) and potentially damaging other relationships in your family in the process.

Paul's advice works for a localized community of believers who all know and love each other in Christ and who are all operating under the same rules, but that's not what we have here and certainly not what we have on a worldwide scale.

Remember that it is by God's grace only that we are saved. It is not our job to save a person, but it is our job (as commanded) to love a person. God will take care of all the saving himself.

 

[Quartermaine]

But the Bible says a brother who rejects correction gets rejected himself. And that we are held accountable for presenting that correction.

I often wondered why the man got a pass. And it says she was caught in the act. "Go and sin no more" means that yes she had been sinning.

So had everyone else there.

Jesus invited anyone without sin to judge and administer correction. Are you worthy to judge and condemn and correct your nephew?

Shunning them doesn't mean you stop loving them, it just means you don't agree to the presence of willful sin.

i imagine it sure feels like you have stopped your family has stopped loving

 

[Steve97]

I also don't get the attitudes of the last 2 posters. I have done nothing, while I try to discern what is the right thing to do. Yet their response is in the tone of, I'm a rotten rat-b#$%^&** for even thinking about it. You want to preach the love of God, yet you show little towards someone who's trying to figure what that means. Great examples!

All of us are flawed sinners...even if we follow Christ. Come here for advice, go to Christ for answers.

 

[Ricky M]

There are plenty of parts in the bible that do not apply directly to me or to you or to anyone who isn't Jewish, as just a few examples. For example, I do not need to remember when I was a slave in Egypt because those words were written to the Israelites and their descendents. Paul's letter to the Corinthians was written *to* the church in Corinth. You and I are just reading his mail centuries later. Yes, we can learn from what he wrote, but he wasn't writing *to* us. He was writing to address particular issues (some of them very major) that were happening in the Corinthian church in *his* time in response to messages he received concerning things that were going on there. Again, we can learn from his letter, but we are not his target audience any more than the Ephesian church. They got their own letter to address their own issues.

While the church does mean the entire body of believers in Christ when it comes to salvation, that was not specifically what Paul was addressing in his letter, and to treat it as such in the 21st century when we have thousands of different denominations all over the world who consider themselves Christians, all with differing beliefs as to how Christianity is to be practiced, it is impractical. Are we going to have bands of Baptists from the U.S. traveling over to Lutheran churches in Germany demanding that all the Lutheran sinners (as defined by Baptists) be cast out of the Lutheran congregations?

It sounds silly, but if you think you are held accountable for the behavior of your nephew for this reason, then you will equally be held accountable for the behavior of *every* Christian *everywhere* should you hear of them sinning and somehow have to manage to get them ejected from the entire body of Christian believers every time it happens and you hear about it.

If your nephew doesn't go to a church, there is no church fellowship to cast him from. If he doesn't consider that he even has a problem, nothing you say or do is going convince him otherwise, and there is also the consideration that what you say to him could be wrong and you end up doing far more harm than good along with an irreparably damaged relationship. The only behavior you can control is your own.

Not to mention that by using this passage in Corinthians as justification to eject him from all of Christianity, how have you determined that you have the authority to speak for ALL of Christianity everywhere to do so? The result would really be only that you are personally casting him away only from yourself (and whichever couple people from your own church, who are likely complete strangers to your nephew, you choose to bring with you as your witnesses) and potentially damaging other relationships in your family in the process.

Paul's advice works for a localized community of believers who all know and love each other in Christ and who are all operating under the same rules, but that's not what we have here and certainly not what we have on a worldwide scale.

Remember that it is by God's grace only that we are saved. It is not our job to save a person, but it is our job (as commanded) to love a person. God will take care of all the saving himself.

So, anything addressed to Corinth I can ignore. Since I'm not a Hebrew, a Roman, a Thessalonian, an Ephesian, or directly associated with any of the groups Paul wrote to, I can ignore all those too. Pretty much given that parameter, I can ignore the entire Bible, because I don't belong to any of the groups that any of the Bible was written to.

Wow that's a load off my shoulders. I'm pretty much free to do whatever I want! Thank you for that clarification. And here my entire life I've been trying to uphold Biblical mores that don't apply to me!

And this:

James 5:19-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

is entirely meaningless.

And all of these: What Does the Bible Say About Confronting Sins? are likewise meaningless.

Wow. What will I do with my new freedom? Guess I'll go to a bar, get drunk, and pick up women, since I don't belong to any of the specific groups that were told not to do that.

 

[Ricky M]

I guess this needs more redacting as well.

 

[bekkilyn]

Well then, if you already know everything about everything, God included, then why are you asking us?

 

[Ricky M]

Well then, if you already know everything about everything, God included, then why are you asking us?

Because I value others opinions in the effort to be Biblically based and to check myself. And I do appreciate your words and have taken some to heart. But honestly, you've dismissed soooo much of the Bible as not applicable, your understandings come with a huge asterisk attached.

 

[Ricky M]

And, I think you are in terrible error, and need correcting as well.

But then again, don't we all