Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth

[ReformedAnglican]

Noone has ever been justified by works!

 

[eph3Nine]

Nope, they havent...but faith PLUS works was clearly the agenda for the Nation of Israel. That is the program they signed UP FOR In Leviticus 26.

 

[ReformedAnglican]

Nope, they havent...but faith PLUS works was clearly the agenda for the Nation of Israel. That is the program they signed UP FOR In Leviticus 26.

Works never save they proove genuine faith which is true for all 'dipensations'.

 

[eph3Nine]

Works never save they proove genuine faith which is true for all 'dipensations'.

WRONG...in THIS dispensation of GRACE its "faith ALONE, by GRACE alone, in Christ ALONE"

 

[heymikey80]

WRONG...in THIS dispensation of GRACE its "faith ALONE, by GRACE alone, in Christ ALONE"

Well, since Paul didn't say faith alone what did Paul really say?

"He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

I'm not sure why God has a compelling need to fulfil some law in an old dispensation ....

"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." Gal. 5:24-25

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Ep 2:10

And of course John the Apostle, apparently after Paul wrote (and likely to a Gentile church):

"By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Himought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked." 1 Jn 2:3-6

 

[JM]

Salvation is always by Grace, in every age.

 

[ChurchandCrown]

Salvation is always by Grace, in every age.

And works prove our faith is genuine

 

[JMWHALEN]

And works prove our faith is genuine

___
And how many works, and what quality of works, are required to "prove" your faith is "genuine", i.e., be specific as to your definition of "genuine". This type "subjective" mind set perverts the gospel of Christ, and summarizes the heresy of "Lordship Salvation." This is not "good news"-it is "bad news", and is what distinguishes Christianity, and the objective crosswork and resurrection of the Savior, from the subjectivity of "religion", i.e., man continually presenting what he "does"(works) as a basis for justification, and comparing his works to others, his righteousness to others. You, and religion, have the wrong "standard". The standard you have, and which is the essence of religion, is man comparing himself and his works to other men, instead of the LORD God's standard, which is absolute perfection-the standard set by Gof the Father is the righteousness of His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[eph3Nine]

Amen John...works dont prove anything...for cryin out loud. UNSAVED people do good works....right? "We are created IN Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD works, which God prepared beforehand that we might WALK in them."...but they have NOTHING to do with our walk of faith or the maintaining of our salvation. The book of Titus tells us that it is the GRACE OF GOD that leads us to godly living.

Amazing how many folks dont realize that the gospel that saves today is by GRACE alone, thru faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone.

Salvation under the program of times past was faith PLUS works. The works were a demonstration of their belief in what God told them. The mark of the NEW program is that it is faith plus NOTHING but the finished work on the Cross.

 

[heymikey80]

Amen John...works dont prove anything...for cryin out loud. UNSAVED people do good works....right?

They're a visible test. Who doesn't do good works? John points out it's a reasonable test if the unbeliever has no good works.

"We are created IN Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD works, which God prepared beforehand that we might WALK in them."...but they have NOTHING to do with our walk of faith or the maintaining of our salvation. The book of Titus tells us that it is the GRACE OF GOD that leads us to godly living.

"He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4 Seems like walking has *something* to do with it.

Not a cause, a result. But that's not nothing, it's something.

Amazing how many folks dont realize that the gospel that saves today is by GRACE alone, thru faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone.

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone, but it grows up into works in a mature Christian.

Salvation under the program of times past was faith PLUS works. The works were a demonstration of their belief in what God told them.

nah. Salvation was always by God's grace through faith in Him. As it was in Habakkuk, it is today.

The mark of the NEW program is that it is faith plus NOTHING but the finished work on the Cross.

It's the only program that has ever justified sinful human beings, in any age:

Rom 4:2-6:
'if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works ..."

 

[eph3Nine]

Well said by John Whalen

You, and religion, have the wrong "standard". The standard you have, and which is the essence of religion, is man comparing himself and his works to other men, instead of the LORD God's standard, which is absolute perfection-the standard set by Gof the Father is the righteousness of His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yep...we either follow Gods standard 100% from the day we enter the world til the day we exit, or we are in deep do do. Thats why GRACE is so precious. We cant meet the standard God requires, but ANOTHER has met it FOR us, and we stand in HIS righteousness alone.

"2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

 

[JMWHALEN]

They're a visible test. Who doesn't do good works? John points out it's a reasonable test if the unbeliever has no good works.



"He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4 Seems like walking has *something* to do with it.

Not a cause, a result. But that's not nothing, it's something.



Justification is by grace alone through faith alone, but it grows up into works in a mature Christian.



nah. Salvation was always by God's grace through faith in Him. As it was in Habakkuk, it is today.



It's the only program that has ever justified sinful human beings, in any age:

Rom 4:2-6:
'if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works ..."

________

Underline/bold is my emphasis:


"Justification is by grace alone through faith alone, but it grows up into works in a mature Christian."

My comment: More subjectivity, and more of what "you do". Tell everyone on the board how many "good works" makes one a "mature Christian"? No "buts", sir.

"nah. Salvation was always by God's grace through faith in Him. As it was in Habakkuk, it is today....It's the only program that has ever justified sinful human beings, in any age..."

my comment:

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

What? "no more of works"?

Here is a scripture most simply "blow off":

" Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." Romans 3:30

Circumcision by faith
Uncircumcision through faith

Oh, no, John, the Holy Bible does not really mean this! Oh, no, John, "everything is the same" throughout the Holy Bible!

Again:
Forgiveness/Justification in this dispensation: Part 1

Believers in the gospel of Christ of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 have submitted themselves "unto the righteousness of God"(Romans 10:3).

We now have the righteousness of God, Romans 3:21-25, 4:5, secured through the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ(1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The LORD God has justified us forever because He sees us "in Christ": Acts 13;43; Romans 3:24-28, 4:25, 5:1,9, 8:30; 1 Cor. 6:11; Galatians 2:16, 3:24; Titus 3:7. This is an immutable reckoning in the mind of God. Justification is that judicial act of God by which, on account of the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom I am united("in Christ") by faith, He declares me to be no longer exposed to the penalty of the righteous requirements of the law, but restored to divine favor. I have been declared righteous. Justfication is an act, not a process. Upon believing 1 Cor. 15:1-4, I was given a free gift(Romans 5:18)-a righteous standing before a Holy God. This gift, by defintion, has nothing to do with what I have done or who I am. No amount of self-effort or good works could ever bring one to justification. I did not justify myself-it is God who justifies. This gift is unchanging. Once God declared me righteous on the merit of the eternal Son of God, the Lord jesus Christ, the sin question regarding me has been settled once for all.

Justification is more than forgiveness, since implicit in forgiveness is guilt and cancellation/removal of sin(negative), while justification is "not guilty" and the bestowing of the merit and standing of the Lord Jesus Christ(positive). Justification is not equivalent to being pardoned. A pardoned criminal is still a criminal. Justification removes the guilt. God thus not only forgets my sin, but forgets that I am a sinner-and all because He sees me "in Christ".

Because I am "in Christ Jesus", I have been "...made the righteousness of God in him..."(1 Corinthians 1:30, 2 Corinthians 5:21). I am "... found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteosness which is of God by faith..."Phillippians 3:9:

All my sins(plural-1 Cor. 15:1-4) were forgiven at Calvary and the resurrection 3 days later:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense)of sins…" Col. 1:14

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven(emphasis mine-past tense) you all trespasses…" Col. 2:13

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave(emphasis mine-past tense)you, so also do ye." Col. 3:13

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense) of sins, according to the riches of his grace…" Eph. 1:7

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven(emphasis mine-past tense) you" Eph. 4:32.

In Romans 5:12 Paul is no longer dealing with sins(plural), but rather with the SOURCE, the principle of indwelling sin. Romans 5:12 is speaking of identification-our positional history. We were all identified positionally with the source of humanity-"in Adam". When Adam sinned and thereby positionally died to God, I died with him. When he became flesh, so did I in him. When he was judged I was also judged in him.

Unlike its product, sins(plural), sin COULD NOT BE FORGIVEN, for it would be sin still. A forgiven thief is still a thief! Hence, sin had to be condemned/judged in death:

"...God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for SIN(emphasis mine-not sins), condemned SIN(emphasis mine) in the flesh."(Romans 8:3).

Thus, my SINS were forgiven by the principle of SUBSTITUTION:
"...Christ died for our sins..."(1 Cor 15:3)/"...gave himself for our sins...." Gal. 1:4

But our SIN was condemned/judged by the principle of IDENTIFICATION-2 Cor. 5:21="...to be SIN(emphasis mine) for us..."


Again, sins(plural) can be forgiven, but sin(singular), cannot be forgiven-it must be judged. That is, the sin nature, who I was "in Adam"(1 Cor. 15:22), was not forgiven at Calvary. My then future sins were forgiven("Christ died for our sins"-plural-emphasis mine-1 Cor. 15:3), but I, as the Adamic "old man"(Romans 6:6, Eph. 4:22, Col.3:9), the source of those sins, was not forgiven. Sin must be judged/condemned, and it was at Calvary.. "For he(God the Father-emphasis mine) hath made him(the Son of God-emhasis mine) to be sin for us...."(2 Cor. 5"21)/"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh..."(Romans 8:3)

Thus, while the Lamb of God was on the cross, God the Father laid all my as-yet-uncommitted sins upon God the Son, and His death by blood for those sins freed me from the penalty. While the Lord Jesus Christ was on that same cross, God the Father identified(the meaning of the word "baptize") me, in my Adamic life of sin, with His Son, who was made to be that sin(2 Cor. 5:21). In Him, I died to sin. In my death unto sin in the Lord Jesus Christ's death, I was freed from all that I was in the "first man Adam"(1 Cor. 15:45), and was re-created in the "last Adam"(1 Cor. 15:45)-Romans 6:5, 2 Cor. 5:17, Eph. 2:10.

Thus, all my sins were forgiven via the principle of substitution, i.e., "...Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures...."(1 Cor. 15:3). But my sin was condemned/judged via the principle of identification, i.e., "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin...."(2 Cor. 5:21). The Lord Jesus Christ did not die for sin, but for sins. Being made sin, our sin, He was judged, condemned, and crucified in our place.

Thus, the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for SIN, but for SINS. Being made sin, our sin, He was judged, condemned, and crucified. He, being the sinless one, died unto sin-out of the realm of sin-having paid the price in full. Thence He was free to rise from among the dead into "newness of life"-heavenly, glorified, "new creation life."

I, the natural man in condemned Adam, was not forgiven for who I am "in Adam"("WRONG BEING"!) at the cross. My then future SINS were forgiven, but I, as the Adamic "old man", the SOURCE of those SINS, was not forgiven. Sin must be judged-it was -Romans 8:3. While the Lamb of God was on the cross, God the Father laid ALL of my as-yet-uncommitted sins upon the Lord Jesus Christ , and His death for those sins freed me from their penalty. While the Lord Jesus Christ was on that same cross, God the Father IDENTIFIED me, in my Adamic life of sin, with His Son who was made to be that sin(2 Cor. 5:21). In Him, I died unto sin positionally. Again, I, the sinful one, was not forgiven for who I am "in Adam"-my sins were forgiven, but not the "old man", the SOURCE of those sins. I was not forgiven in order to start all over as a "first-Adam" person. No! "I was crucified with Christ"(Gal. 2:20, Romans 6:6)-I died unto sin in Him. In that death I was positionally separated from my Adamic life, the SOURCE of sin. The Lord Jesus Christ's death FOR me redeemed me from the penalty of my sins; my positional death WITH Him freed me from the condemned/judged Adamic life and its rulership.

Romans 6:6 sets forth doctrinally, and positionally, what happened to believers as IDENTIFIED with the Lord Jesus Christ in His death unto sin on the cross. I, the old Adamic man, was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed-condemned/judged in death-not forgiven. I, the sinful one, was judged in the death of the cross in order that I might be re-created in the risen life of the "last Adam." In my death unto sin in the Lord Jesus Christ's death, I was freed from all that I was in the first Adam, and I was re-created in the last Adam as He rose from the dead-Romans 6:5 "planted together"=IDENTIFIED(the meaning of baptism)/UNITED, 2 Cor. 5:17, Eph. 2:10 "created in Christ Jesus."

I refuse to ask the LORD God to forgive me for something He already took care of 2000 years ago-that is unbelief. When Christ died, I died. When He was buried, I was buried. When He rose from the dead, I rose from the dead, When He ascended, I ascended. And I await my future glorification of this "vile" body. Hence, the meaning of "baptized into Christ"-Gal. 3:27, Romans 6:3/"baptized into his death"-Romans 6:3=IDENTIFICATION. I have been judged already, all my sins I have committed, or will commit, have been forgiven, and I have been justified. No one can 'lay any charges' against me-"...It is God that justifieth"(Romans 8:33).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access(emphasis mine) by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 1, 2

Peace means the war is over. I was an enemy(Romans 5:10 ), but I am no longer. Only enemies need reconcilliation. God is not angry with me any longer, and is not imputing my sins to my account(2 Cor. 5:19). And by His grace, I have not only reconciled, but justified. As hard as it is for The RCC to accept it, it is a FACT that when God looks at me, he does not see my sin, or my sins(sin, singular, was judged at Calvary, and all sins, plural, were forgiven by 1 Cor. 15:1-4-"my old man" was judged at the cross, all my sins are gone, never to be brought up again or charged to me again), nor my righteousness, he sees the righteousness of his son. So then, if God the Father has a problem with me, he would then have to have a problem with the Lord Jesus Christ-impossible!

Peace means the LORD God has NOTHING against me. This involves:

1. That God has fully judged sin, upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my substitute.
2. That God was so fully satisfied with Christ's sacrifice, that he will eternally remain so; he will never take up the judgment of my sin again="What sin"?
3. That God is therefore at rest about me forever, however poor my understanding of truth, and however weak my walk is. God is looking at the blood of Christ and his righteousness, not my sins. All the demanding claims of the Law were met by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

My peace is not as between 2 nations before at war; but as a king and rebellious, rotten, guilty subjects. My heart is at rest because God, against which all sin is directed, has been fully satisfied at the cross(propitiation). "Peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" does not mean peace through what he is now doing, but through what he did do on the cross. All the majesty of God's holy and righteous throne was satisfied by the Lord Jesus Christ by his death, burial, and resurrection. And now, being raised from the dead, the Lord Jesus Christ is my peace. But is is his past work at Calvary, not his present work of intercession, that all is based upon; and this gives all believers a sense of peace which he made through his blood.

Re. " By whom also we have access", the word "also" sets this blessing forth as distinct from and additional to that of peace with God. Through the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom we have believed, we have been given to the JUSTIFIED(the basis of our access) access into a wonderful standing in divine favor, totally "...accepted in the beloved...."(Eph. 1:6). Being in Christ, we have the very favor, access, in which Christ stands and has.

Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Grace is getting something you do not deserve. THE FINALITY OF THE CROSS settled the sin issue-itwas dealt with completely 2000 years ago, when JUSTICE, MERCY, AND GRACE. were all put on public display"-the meaning of "...set forth...." in Romans 3:25. God has already accomplished JUSTICE by judging His only Begotten Son in my stead, and thus I received 1. MERCY=not getting what I deserved because the Lord Jesus Christ took my judgment by taking my place="FOR"=the principle of substitution and identification, and 2.GRACE=getting something I don't deserve=the righteousness of God in Christ through the principle of imputation.

(continued)

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[JMWHALEN]

Forgiveness/Justification in this dispensation: Part 2

Again, the Holy Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ died once for all sin and sins inclusively-all issues were settled, including THE BARRIER which prevented my communication with a holy LORD GOD=access. While "short accounts" for forgiveness was the method God used to deal with the sin issue in the past(including the sacrificial system of continuous confession and sacrifice, and including the time of "the gospels"), it is no longer in this dispensation. I am complete in Christ(Col. 2:10), and thus there can never be a "sin issue" or "fellowship" problem, lest God somehow is not satisfied with the work of his Son. Either God took care of all issues, or he did not. He did.

All my sins were deposited in hell 2000 years ago. The Lord God sees me as completely justified and righteous, and no charges can be held to my account-the court and jury met 2000 years ago, the payment for sin was made, sin(singular)was judged, and all sins(plural) were forgiven. These charges were dismissed 2000 years ago, not because of anything I did, or will do or not do in the future, but because of already was done on my behalf by this great and only Saviour of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ. Since I am "in Christ", the LORD God sees His Son and His righteousness. My standing with God does not depend on me asking for forgiveness, or repenting of sin(my "walk"-sanctification)- that is unbelief, asking the LORD God to do something he has already done, and making justification dependent on my faithfulness to service, instead of the faithfulness of the Saviour.

Nowhere in Paul's inspired writings did the Lord Jesus Christ instruct him to teach about incremental forgiveness, or that we are to go to the "forgiveness bank" and to make a withdrawal each time we sin. Instead, we are to believe that we are forgiven, and to thank God, out of gratitude, and not fear(which never motivates man to serve God, as demonstrated by Israel's experience and testimony in the OT) for his grace! Is the riches of God's grace magnified when we believe in his completed work, and Christ's all inclusive forgiveness, or when you ask God to forgive you over and over again, when he told us that we have already been forgiven? Is your forgiveness conditioned based upon how many times you ask or plead or "confess", or are we to believe it is a done deal? I suggest you not ask "how you feel"(human emotions are unreliable and deceitful), or what you have heard from "mainstream" Christianity, which mostly fails to "rightly divide the word of truth", to find the truth in this dispensation.

As I have said many times, the Biblical order is SONSHIP(justification), then SERVICE(sanctification). Those who reverse this biblical order are putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", and are confusing service to our Father AS SONS with service TO BECOME SONS. Those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus", despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ GIVING HIS LIFE FOR US, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything, make this deadly error. The LORD God needs nothing from us(Acts 17:25, Job 35:7, Haggai 2:8) and is not, and will not, condition/make "giving our life to Him"(service) the basis for His acceptance of us. Again, The LORD God has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ's voluntary sacrificial offering of HIS LIFE, not ours, as proptiatory(satisfactory). All service is a priviledged responsibility given as a gift to those who have been declared adopted sons by faith in the finished and faithful work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Holy means "sanctified"=set aside for God's purpose. But God only uses those instruments that are His sons, and "saints" describes those who are already justified=His="in Christ". And the LORD God would have us know this biblical order in Corithians-Paul calls the Corinthians, the most carnal, dirty, lustful group of believer SAINTS.

Consider the book of Galatians, which is a stern, severe, corrective, and solemn message-there is no word of commendation, praise or thanksgiving. Paul's "heart" is laid bare here as the letters are peppered with deep emotion and strong feeling. This is his "fighting epistle"-he is on a war path, with no tolerance for legalism! It is the declaration of freedom from all types of legalism. While Romans was from Paul's "head" with its lawyerly, systematic treatise on justification by faith, and faith alone, Galatians was from his heart. It is the boldest, strongest declaration and DEFENSE(as is this post) of the doctrine of justification by faith in and out of the scriptures, and, as such, is God's polemic on behalf of the most vital truth of the Christian truth against any attack. That is, not only is a sinner saved by grace through faith(not commitment), but the saved sinner lives by grace(sanctification=commitment=the Christian "walk"). But we must not confuse justification(the declaration of righteousness) with sanctification! Yes, we are saved from the penalty of sin(justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presense of sin(glorification), but these are not equivalent biblical doctrines, and people are perverting the gospel of Christ by putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", i. e., they are placing sanctification=commitment=give your life to Christ in the wrong biblical order-as a "prerequisite" to justification, or as the means to justification. No, No, No!! Interestingly enough, Paul had nothing but condemnation for the Galatians, and yet, for the Corinthians, as mentioned, the most carnal bunch of Christians, who were engaged in adultery, drunkeness, gluttony.....he had words of encouragement, and never questioned their justification, as witnessed by his continual reference to them as "in Christ", and as SAINTS. This should be an object lesson for us all, and should cause each of us to cry with joy and praise for the truly amazing grace bestowed upon each one of us wherby we are made "...accepted in the beloved...."(Ephesians 1:6) by this great God of ours(Psalms 145:3). And this should be our motivation to "...walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called...."(Ephesians 4:1), "..walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God...."(Colossians 1:10), "...walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory...."(1 Thessalonians 2:12), "..walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more...."(1 Thessalonians 4:1),."...as children of light...."(Ephesians 5:8), which is our "....reasonable seervice...."(Romans 12:1) as sons.

No one would disagree with anyone who would say we should "live a holy life before God"(sanctification), BUT NOT AS A BASIS FOR OUR ACCEPTANCE by Him-not as our basis for JUSTIFICATION! We live a holy life because we are sons, because we are justified, because we are saved, NOT TO BE SONS, NOT TO BE JUSTIFIED, NOT TO BE SAVED.

No one on this board has,or can, truly(and this is a subjective criteria)repent(ed) of all their sins", no one on this board has, or can "surrender 100% to the Lordship of Jesus Christ"(and this is a subjective criteria), no one has "put away the things or our previous life and life style", no one has, or can, "live(d) for God 100%", for all have been pronounced "guilty"(Romans 3:19 ), and "...come short of the glory of God...."(Romans 3:23), in not only what we do, but what we do not do, and how we think. Sin is not jusy "wrong doing", it is "wrong being". Nor will the LORD God accept any offering these acts of service as a basis for justification, but will only accept the death by blood OFFERING of the Lord Jesus Christ's spotless life, NOT OURS, and his resurrection, as a basis for our justification as sons.

Phrases such as "giving one's life, heart("commitment"), "making Jesus the Lord of your life", is not the proper object of faith. Again, salvation has nothing to do with "giving" God anything! Salvation is not my gift to God. Rather, it is the issue of receiving a gift from God. The issue in salvation is not what we give to Him, but what He gives to us-eternal life. The issue is not giving your life to Christ-it is Christ giving up His life as an atoning sacrifice for you. Salvation has nothing to do with "giving up your life", "surrendering your life"......... It was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave up His life and made full surrender when he yielded His life at Calvary. Again, when a lost person is told to "surrender his life, give his life to Jesus, commit his life to Jesus.........", this wrongly presumes that a person has something worthy to give(whether that is time, money, service......), and confuses SERVICE with SALVATION. It requires a "commitment" to serve Christ "up front" before salvation, and it presents a work-based performance system as a basis for acceptance by God.

Phrases such as "Give your heart to Jesus" may sound very romantic, but we are not saved by "falling in love with Jesus"-we are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work at Calvary and His resurrection 3 days later. Giving one's heart, life(commitment) is an activity of service to the Lord, and and, as such, service and dedication is something the LORD appeals to believers to do(Romans 12:1-2, for eg.). But this is service from those who have become his own. The biblical order is sonship, then service. Service, then sonship is a work-based performance system, as typified by the Roman Catholic Church, and "perverts the gospel of Christ"(Gal. 1:7). Statements such as " ...I believe salvation is a journey; it is not a moment in time" reflect this mindset and false doctrine. Sanctification is a journey, but justification is not. Justification is a "moment in time" declaration of righteousness based on the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Practically every false doctrine is a result of "getting things out of order", as I mentioned in previous posts. The divine order is justification, then change/sanctification, not change/sanctification and then salvation. Notice in Romans 5:6, God "JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY(emphasis mine)"-no "fixing yourself up first", no "stop sinning first".......... Notice in Romans 5:8, "while we were yet SINNERS(emphasis mine), Christ died for us". Again, those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus, commit your life to Jesus"(despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ GIVING HIS LIFE FOR US, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything!) make this deadly error-confusing sancification with justification.

Many error by thinking that "stop sinning"=acts of commission "solves the sin issue". You could "stop sinning" all the rest of your life(which is a self righteous PRIDE that no one can do), and that would not allow you in the presence of our Holy God. Sin is not just wrong acts, it is "not doing what you are suppose to do", and it is "wrong thinking"-thus,"all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". The LORD God has pronounced all of us GUILTY, with no exceptions(read Romans again)-guilty of not only what we do, but guilty of falling short of his absolute standard, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST="who he wants us to beThe biblical requirement is not just forgiveness=a pardon for an offence, but JUSTIFICATION=a legal declaration of righteousness, and includes not just "stop doing what is wrong", but also DOING EVERYTHING THAT IS RIGHT in thought, word, and deed(had any evil thoughts today? I have). And this is "the righteousness of God in him"(2 Cor. 5:21), the "righteousness of God"(Romans 1:17), " righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Romans 3:22), "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"(Philippians 3:9).

The divine operation works from within to without, the opposite of Satan's "modest operandi"(sic), which works from the outside of man to within. We need to preach the gospel of Christ, and not confuse the "fruits" of salvation, the effects of salvation, which is our "walk"/sanctification, with the CAUSE of salvation. Only the gospel of Christ is the"power of God unto salvation"(Romans 1:16)- and this is the power of God from the PENALTY of sin (justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presence of sin(glorification).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[heymikey80]

My comment: More subjectivity, and more of what "you do".

Hm, I never really thought of Scripture -- Paul -- as being subjectivity ...

"for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming" Ep 4:12-14

Tell everyone on the board how many "good works" makes one a "mature Christian"? No "buts", sir.

Zero. Works don't make you mature. Maturity leads you to works.

'And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?' 1 Cor 3:1-4

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

What? "no more of works"?

Actually, Scripture has it "no more [out] of works", that is, works don't choose the remnant -- God does through His unmerited favor.

But ... no works? What, you think Christians just become lazy?

Here is a scripture most simply "blow off":

" Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." Romans 3:30

Circumcision by faith
Uncircumcision through faith

Oh, no, John, the Holy Bible does not really mean this! Oh, no, John, "everything is the same" throughout the Holy Bible!

Well, as long as we're avoiding the verses just prior ...

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." Rom 3:28-30

I wonder if you'd make the same split when Paul claims people are saved by Jesus, versus others being saved through Jesus ....

Ah, and the wonderful logic of Romans 5, moving inevitably on to the logic of Romans 6:1-2,4:

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? ... as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

Again, the issue is not what justifies. The issue is what results from justification and indwelling and infusion of grace in the life of the believer. It's a whole new walk, a walk involving good works.

Paul is saying, Keep the Christian life in proper order. The foundation is by faith alone. You can't live a Christian life without justification by faith alone. But faith has an impact on your works, either. Nobody lays a foundation to build nothing atop it; least of all Christ. He intends us to walk in good works (Ep 2:10).

 

[twoedge]

Thats wonderful...so you like fiction???? I might be able to recommend some other sites for ya. LOL

I like science fiction, you know Tim La Haye, Hal Lindsay, Dwight Pentecost.....(wink)

2E

 

[twoedge]

WRONG...in THIS dispensation of GRACE its "faith ALONE, by GRACE alone, in Christ ALONE"

What about Rom 4:13 ' For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. '

Gen 15:6 ' and he Believed in the Lord and it was accounted it to him for righteousness'.

Rom 4:2 ' For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God'. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness'.

Rom 9:6-8 ' But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed '.

Gal 3:18 ' For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise '.
Hab 2:3 ' The just shall live by faith '.

We have a moral code to obey and if we fall short of it we have ' Advocate with the father'. They had a moral code to obey and if they fell short of it they had an ' Advocate with the father '. Or do you wish to wriggle deeper into heresay and claim that there has been a time when men were saved by works?

2E

 

[twoedge]

Amen John...works dont prove anything...for cryin out loud. UNSAVED people do good works....right? "We are created IN Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD works, which God prepared beforehand that we might WALK in them."...but they have NOTHING to do with our walk of faith or the maintaining of our salvation. The book of Titus tells us that it is the GRACE OF GOD that leads us to godly living.

Amazing how many folks dont realize that the gospel that saves today is by GRACE alone, thru faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone.

Salvation under the program of times past was faith PLUS works. The works were a demonstration of their belief in what God told them. The mark of the NEW program is that it is faith plus NOTHING but the finished work on the Cross.

I agree that we are saved through faith alone. But I'm curious to know how an unchanging, same yeterday, today and tomorrow, God has different methods of salvation depending soley on waht your birthday happens to be. Abraham ' believed God and it was accounted to him for righteouness '. Nothing there about works as a sort of 'supplementary number'. What was the proporion of faith to works that they had to have? How many works did they have to accumulate to qualify? Did you get demerit points for violations? Althogh I have let some sarcasm creep in I am interested to know what you mean by this faith plus works method of salvation. Maybe an example of someone who was saved this way.

2E

 

[twoedge]

Hm, I never really thought of Scripture -- Paul -- as being subjectivity ...

"for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming" Ep 4:12-14



Zero. Works don't make you mature. Maturity leads you to works.

'And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?' 1 Cor 3:1-4



Actually, Scripture has it "no more [out] of works", that is, works don't choose the remnant -- God does through His unmerited favor.

But ... no works? What, you think Christians just become lazy?



Well, as long as we're avoiding the verses just prior ...

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." Rom 3:28-30

I wonder if you'd make the same split when Paul claims people are saved by Jesus, versus others being saved through Jesus ....

Ah, and the wonderful logic of Romans 5, moving inevitably on to the logic of Romans 6:1-2,4:

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? ... as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

Again, the issue is not what justifies. The issue is what results from justification and indwelling and infusion of grace in the life of the believer. It's a whole new walk, a walk involving good works.

Paul is saying, Keep the Christian life in proper order. The foundation is by faith alone. You can't live a Christian life without justification by faith alone. But faith has an impact on your works, either. Nobody lays a foundation to build nothing atop it; least of all Christ. He intends us to walk in good works (Ep 2:10).

What about this one....' for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should......'. *** 2:11

Or as Calvin said ' We are saved by faith alone, but when faith arrives it has works as company'. ( or somethin' like that )

Faith is born of God and always bears fruit. ( calm down JM, I mean in varying degrees and in it's own time )

Nice to meet you 'Mikey80
2E

 

[eph3Nine]

What about this one....' for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should......'. *** 2:11

Or as Calvin said ' We are saved by faith alone, but when faith arrives it has works as company'. ( or somethin' like that )

Faith is born of God and always bears fruit. ( calm down JM, I mean in varying degrees and in it's own time )

Nice to meet you 'Mikey80
2E

Lordship Salvation always is a fruit inspector religion. We are saved by grace alone thru faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone.

THEN, after we are saved..."we are His workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus UNTO good works which God himself prepared beforehand that we should WALK in them"

We arent to be works inspectors, but to make sure people believe the gospel that saves TODAY...Pauls gospel, the last revelation of God To mankind.

WE ARENT SAVED BY WHAT WE DO , BUT BY WHAT WE BELEIVE.

 

[eph3Nine]

What about this one....' for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should......'. *** 2:11

Now this is written by Paul...and tells us that GRACE is the motivating factor under this dispensation, and that instead of being for many, as it was in times PAST (to the JEW first) it is now to ALL (no special status given to any).

Or as Calvin said ' We are saved by faith alone, but when faith arrives it has works as company'. ( or somethin' like that )

Now Calvin is messed up. He is mixing both programs and making the error of thinking he is doing God a favor.

Faith is born of God and always bears fruit. ( calm down JM, I mean in varying degrees and in it's own time )

Now here is simply your opinion. Faith is exercised and must have an object. FAITH today believes what God says to them in that dispensation. We are not told to beleive the information given to the Nation Israel. Faith and fruit are not interchangeable. FRUIT comes from walking in dependence upon Christ who lives IN US..its HIS fruit and has nothing to do with our faith in His finished work. It comes as we WALK in those works He prepared for us beforehand. He manifests it as it belongs to HIM.