Wow, so many adventist topics (question on EGW in here)

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Nope; Paul says the law of ordinances that was against us (the ceremonial law) was nailed to the Cross.

PROVE IT DJ...............

Oh, very adult and Christlike! More like children's playground talk. And you're how old?

Col 2:13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15[And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Here is Paul's lesson....#1 The fact is DJ, he is addressing Gentiles as if they were never under ceromonial law or ordinances, so how can you say that ceromonial laws were against the gentiles?
#2. The fact that they were dead in their sins and all tresspasses were forgiven" relates to all unrighteous act (SIN) gentiles committed rather than a devided law that SDA argue by isolating texts to establish a false teaching.

#3. The fact that the ten commandments is said to be included in the ordinances reenforces what was blotted out and nailed to the cross.

1) The first people Paul went to to convert were his fellow Jews.
2) There is no evidence (which is why you didn't produce any) that the ceremonial laws never applied to the Gentiles.
3) If those laws never applied to the Gentiles and he was only talking to Gentiles then Paul would have said so straight up.
4) But, because your assumptions are false Paul says that those laws were "nailed to the cross."
5) I never said that the ceremonial laws were against the Gentiles; you read that in.
6) Paul said (Romans 4:15) "where there is no law there is no transgression (sin)" (you forgot that text, eh?) Another "isolated text" you aren't paying attention to.

So, if the 10C was nailed to the Cross then there are no moral laws and there is no sin. Hence we don't need to be saved and we don't need a Saviour. The Good News is that we have been saved from sin and the punishment of death. All we have to do is to confess our sins to our Lord and our God and He'll forgive us. But, that maybe the problem right there: as one person put it "They want a Saviour, but they don't want a Lord."

7) So, we have now established that it is the anti-SDA's who use "isolated texts (and ignore the inconvenient one's) to establish a false teaching."

 

[djconklin]

WHAT YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND FROM THESE TEXTS DJ, IS HOW A CHRISTIAN ARE TAUGHT TO LIVE RIGHTEOUS LIVES, AND HOW TO ABSTAIN FROM SIN WITHOUT BEING GIVEN THE LAW OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS (MADE FOR SPECIFICALLY FOR SINNERS1Ti 1:9 )WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS.

Oh, I don't have to worry ab't the law. I listen to this great theologian who said it was nailed to the Cross. That makes it null and void. There is no law to condemn me so I already live a righteous life.

 

[Cribstyl]

Oh, very adult and Christlike! More like children's playground talk. And you're how old?

You find it childlike to be asked to be ask to prove your comments of the scripture? I'm not disrespecting you, we're just not in agreement. (English is not my first language but I am an American by lifetime expiriences)

1) The first people Paul went to to convert were his fellow Jews.

Paul's letter to the Colossian was after his 3rd missionary journey http://blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html
I agree with that He went to the Jews first, but this is a letter you should examine as a letter and not coded messages.


Does this text in context not specify "uncircumcission" and is relative to being "non Jewish"?
Col 2:13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

2) There is no evidence (which is why you didn't produce any) that the ceremonial laws never applied to the Gentiles.

I should prove that Gentiles are called to serve God by faith. You should prove that they're suppose to keep ceremonial laws and I would be greatful to you for opening my eyes (ie,sabbaths, food law, etc,)

Rom 9:23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

3) If those laws never applied to the Gentiles and he was only talking to Gentiles then Paul would have said so straight up.

HE did, that's why this epistle to the Colossian should be read as a letter and not isolated from it's content.Col 1:27To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

4) But, because your assumptions are false Paul says that those laws were "nailed to the cross."

5) I never said that the ceremonial laws were against the Gentiles; you read that in.

No friend....you said ceremonial law were nailed to the cross but the texts explains in details how the penalty (death) of sin (transgression) is satisfied on the cross.
These texts are only 1 sentence. Col 2:13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15[And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
So I rendered my understanding, that, what is blotted out from the gentiles are their trangression against God's righteousness. (not ceremonial law)

By Law they were guilty of murder, stealing, adultry,etc, but with Jesus saying I Forgive you, I forgive you. The blood of Jesus shed by those nails erases the penalty required by the Law. The conversation in text does not suggest ceremonial law are ordinanances, it suggests earthly law vs eternal law.
the lesson is about the ordinances of 2 worlds heaven and earth.
......................................................................

6) Paul said (Romans 4:15) "where there is no law there is no transgression (sin)" (you forgot that text, eh?) Another "isolated text" you aren't paying attention to.

Rom 4:14For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Rom 4:15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.


No, you cant isolate that verse, look for the period. Again, you have to read the complete sentence. It's actually saying " The Law brings judgment. When no rules are given, noone can accuse you of breaking it.
See how isolation can change the meaning? look at some of the other versions.

So, if the 10C was nailed to the Cross then there are no moral laws and there is no sin. Hence we don't need to be saved and we don't need a Saviour. The Good News is that we have been saved from sin and the punishment of death. All we have to do is to confess our sins to our Lord and our God and He'll forgive us. But, that maybe the problem right there: as one person put it "They want a Saviour, but they don't want a Lord."

7) So, we have now established that it is the anti-SDA's who use "isolated texts (and ignore the inconvenient one's) to establish a false teaching."

You have it all twisted to fit your agenda rather than to apply God's word to understanding.
We serve a Holy God and the wages of sin is death.

It is God who has given His word that, those "justified" shall live by faith in His word. Not in sinful nature as dictated by the Law. but in Godly nature as reveal by His indwelling spirit, Who teaches righteousness to every and heart.

CRIB

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Oh, very adult and Christlike! More like children's playground talk. And you're how old?

You find it childlike to be asked to be ask to prove your comments of the scripture? I'm not disrespecting you, we're just not in agreement. (English is not my first language but I am an American by lifetime expiriences)

Ah! That helps! When you said "PROVE IT" that is not an adult form of communication in America (partly because the use of all caps like that is equvalent to SHOUTING! and partly because that's the kind of "lingo" that children use.). Secondly, you didn't "Please prove it from Scripture." That would have made your intent more clear.

 

[djconklin]

1) The first people Paul went to to convert were his fellow Jews.

Paul's letter to the Colossian was after his 3rd missionary journey http://blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html
I agree with that He went to the Jews first, but this is a letter you should examine as a letter and not coded messages.

1) You didn't know this: I spent 3 years studying the meaning of Col. 2:16-7. Here's the bibliography of the material I read: http://www.666man.net/Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colbiblio.html So, I am quite familiar with the book. In case you are not aware most of my sources are from respectable scholars in the field.
2) I am well aware that Paul was writing a letter and I have never even tried to look for coded messages. Therefore, since I didn't do it it was an irrelevant point to bring up. In logic, your argument is called a straw man. In this case, you don't get any points. My point stands.

 

[djconklin]

Does this text in context not specify "uncircumcission" and is relative to being "non Jewish"?
Col 2:13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Yes, but it doesn't mean that only Gentiles were at Colossae. The early Christian church was a mixed bag of Jews and Gentiles. That's why Paul kept running into problems.

You should prove that they're suppose to keep ceremonial laws and I would be greatful to you for opening my eyes (ie,sabbaths, food law, etc,)

1) Okay, since English isn't your native tongue that could explain some of the screw ups were having in communicating. I never said that the Gentiles were supposed to keep the ceremonial laws. In the OT era if a Gentile joined the synangogue they were expected to follow the ceremonial laws like the Jews. So, in the NT era some Jewish Christians felt that the Gentiles who joined the church should also follow the laws (like circumcision)--the whole argument in the NT that Paul is dealing with is what do the Gentiles have to do to join the church, to be among the accepted.

2) The Sabbath is not a ceremonial law. It is the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments. Neither are the food laws part of the ceremonial laws.

 

[djconklin]

3) If those laws never applied to the Gentiles and he was only talking to Gentiles then Paul would have said so straight up.

HE did,

He didn't. That's the whole point in trying to understand Col. 2:16--the believers at Colossae were keeping the feast days, new moons and ceremonial sabbaths. If they weren't supposed to be doing that (assuming only Gentiles) then Paul wouldn't have told them not let others judge them for how (eating and drinking) they were keeping them.

 

[djconklin]

The conversation in text does not suggest ceremonial law are ordinanances, it suggests earthly law vs eternal law. (emphasis added by DJC)

Okay, again it could be that because English isn't your native tongue you miss things.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Note the section in red. The 10C are not ordinances and the only laws that are a testimony "aganist" us are the ceremonial laws (Deut 31:26 -- "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.").

 

[djconklin]

It's actually saying " The Law brings judgment. When no rules are given, noone can accuse you of breaking it.

BINGO! By Jove, you're getting it! If the Law was nailed to the Cross and rendered null and void then we are not "under the Law" and we are not sinners. But, then that also means that we aren't sinners, we are not condemned to death and we are rightous as we are.

6) Paul said (Romans 4:15) "where there is no law there is no transgression (sin)" (you forgot that text, eh?) Another "isolated text" you aren't paying attention to.

Rom 4:14For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Rom 4:15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

No, you cant isolate that verse, look for the period.

1) Again, since you aren't an American you should know that the "" is an insult.
2) Adding the previous verse doesn't negate my point that "where there is no law there is no sin." In fact, your following comments (see above) agree with what I was saying.
3) You didn't produce any evidence that I isolated the verse and I knew full well where the period was. The previous verse doesn't negate what I said.

 

[djconklin]

You have it all twisted to fit your agenda rather than to apply God's word to understanding.
We serve a Holy God and the wages of sin is death.

The second sentence is great. The first is pure bunk.

 

[Cribstyl]

Ah! That helps! When you said "PROVE IT" that is not an adult form of communication in America (partly because the use of all caps like that is equvalent to SHOUTING! and partly because that's the kind of "lingo" that children use.). Secondly, you didn't "Please prove it from Scripture." That would have made your intent more clear.

Unintended, I'm sorry
CRIB... I mean crib


Please prove it

 

[Cribstyl]

BINGO!

Is'nt that an insult by your standard?

By Jove, you're getting it! If the Law was nailed to the Cross and rendered null and void then we are not "under the Law" and we are not sinners. But, then that also means that we aren't sinners, we are not condemned to death and we are rightous as we are.

Nah.....You misunderstood me......You're mixing sin as depending on the Law. (your 1John 3:4 understanding)
But what is being taught in text is. that law is only a label that accuse or condemns.

Sin does not need a label to be sin to give it power. The soul that sinneth it shall die.


If text teaches that gentiles did not have the law. It means they sinned without having the Law....Rom 2:14Rom 2:12

text teaches Adam to Moses did not have the Law but they sinned.Rom 5:13, 14
The wages of sin is death regardless of there being a law or not.
We're just going to have to disagree about what text reads.

1) Again, since you aren't an American you should know that the "" is an insult.

I wonder why no comments on the underlined statements above?

DJ, my previous comments to you was (English is not my first language but I am an American by lifetime expiriences.)

You're wrong that is not an insult, at worse case it's a DOH! (Imean doh) or CF would have remove it. .....The shameful thing about it that you think it's an insult and you had sent it to me previously...........That's right you're OT...eye for an eye...OK

2) Adding the previous verse doesn't negate my point that "where there is no law there is no sin." In fact, your following comments (see above) agree with what I was saying.
3) You didn't produce any evidence that I isolated the verse and I knew full well where the period was. The previous verse doesn't negate what I said.

CRIB

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
BINGO!

Is'nt that an insult by your standard?

No, I said it with joy! Glee even! And the caps mean I said it loudly! Now if I said "YOU!" that is not yelling of loud, that's a command--it depends on which English word is being used. Note when you are driving that the stop sign is in all caps--that's a command.

 

[Cribstyl]

Okay, again it could be that because English isn't your native tongue you miss things.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Note the section in red. The 10C are not ordinances and

the only laws that are a testimony "aganist" us are the ceremonial laws (Deut 31:26 -- "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.").

Are you saying that the book of the Law just had only ceremonial laws?

 

[djconklin]

Are you saying that the book of the Law just had only ceremonial laws?

No. Only the laws with ordinances are ceremonial.

 

[Cribstyl]

Okay, again it could be that because English isn't your native tongue you miss things.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Note the section in red. The 10C are not ordinances and

the only laws that are a testimony "aganist" us are the ceremonial laws (Deut 31:26 -- "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.").

My question was to find out what you're saying in the above statement. "Are you say the book put in the side of the ark was the handwritting nailed to the cross" or is there another book of handwritting nialed to the cross?

No. Only the laws with ordinances are ceremonial.

What do you mean by "Law with ordinances?"

What are you saying is written in the book of the law that was put in the side of the ark?

By saying the 10c are not ordinaces, are you saying the book put in the side of the ark had none of the ten commandments written in it?


Respectfully
CRIB

 

[Cribstyl]

Deu 5:1¶And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

As you know, the first and only things that Moses speak to their hearing are these listed commandments.

( Djconklin, The fact that OT statutes are the same as OT ordinances, means that you are mistaken to say that the 10.com are not ordinances.) How do you plea?

Deu 5:6I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 5:7Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.

Deu 5:22These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.


Laws become ordinances and judgements when given by a ruler over the people. They become the rulers ordinances and judgements. So when it's called Moses law, it is also God law as proven by many scriptures.


CRIB

 

[sentipente]

If Christians truly believe that the God they worship created the human race how come the parents among the ranks of Christians have not realized how painful it must be to the Creator to see so much dissension in His family? Could it be that they all have "left home?"

 

[Cribstyl]

Deu 5:1¶And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

As you know, the first and only things that Moses speak to their hearing are these listed commandments.

( Djconklin, The fact that OT statutes are the same as OT ordinances, means that you are mistaken to say that the 10.com are not ordinances.) How do you plea?

Deu 5:6I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 5:7Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.

Deu 5:22These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.


Laws become ordinances and judgements when given by a ruler over the people. They become the rulers ordinances and judgments. So when it's called Moses law, it is also God law as proven by many scriptures.


CRIB