Would you renounce Christianity under torture?

[D2wing]

And then there's Jesus the Christ who when being tortured on the cross, and had power to lay down his life and take it up again, laid himself down to end the torture? Of course he is the center and beacon of Christianity and rose up again to be the God of Christians.

So in perfect example, Jesus the Christ was perfect and escaped the tortures of remaining on the cross and testifying as a Christian? And then rose up to testify of the resurrection for the Christians. So did he stop testifying, certainly not. But I do notice that he stopped testifying as a tortured Christian. And he stopped short of the cross' natural execution type death, so he shortened his torture with God powers.

Although I'm unsure what that means, except perhaps don't judge those that deny their faith when tortured, perhaps it's like playing dead Ya know to escape torture. Since we don't have power to lay down our lives and take them up again. Then what power did God give us if tortured on a cross? Wow, now that I said it I'm even more confused, but well it makes sense and also doesn't.

Maybe them that deny their faith when tortured can also be of some use as the early Christians and fight the fights they can win then? Or fight from within the evil regimes? One baby step at a time with the power God gave us as women and men? Perhaps that's the lesson of the Bible about denying Jesus at the cross, denying him thrice?

What you are saying is that Jesus did not really die for our sins and was not really resurrected. First of, those ideas are anti Christian. The scriptures show by Jesus being speared in the side that he was really dead. That whole idea that he did not die is goofy. The Romans knew how to make sure. And of course he rose from the dead.
Next you say that we can escape torture by playing dead. That is a long shot at best. I would not count on it. Also the denial of Peter was before the Pentecost.
As far as judging, the Scriptures say what they say. I strongly admonish you and anyone else to go by them. It is at peril of your own soul to deny Christ in any circumstances. It is human nature to look for loopholes. Do yourself a favor and man up.
I suggest that you get better grounded in the Scriptures and what Christianity is.

 

[devin553344]

What you are saying is that Jesus did not really die for our sins and was not really resurrected. First of, those ideas are anti Christian. The scriptures show by Jesus being speared in the side that he was really dead. That whole idea that he did not die is goofy. The Romans knew how to make sure. And of course he rose from the dead.
Next you say that we can escape torture by playing dead. That is a long shot at best. I would not count on it. Also the denial of Peter was before the Pentecost.
As far as judging, the Scriptures say what they say. I strongly admonish you and anyone else to go by them. It is at peril of your own soul to deny Christ in any circumstances. It is human nature to look for loopholes. Do yourself a favor and man up.
I suggest that you get better grounded in the Scriptures and what Christianity is.

I'm not sure you understood what I wrote, sorry if I was unclear: (I will refer to scripture below, please advise me if you need the passage numbers)

1. I indicated that Jesus died on the cross and resurrected himself. Jesus is quoted in scripture saying that he alone laid down his life and took it up again. (John 10:17-18)

2. I did not advocate playing dead and denying Jesus the Christ. The Scriptures are plain on the issue, sins against Jesus will be forgiven, but sins against the Father will not. So I said judge not them that deny Jesus the Christ. (Luke 12:8-10, Matthew 12:31-32)

3. Man up: I testify of what God has taught me since he has visited me personally and testified of His resurrected body, even though I've been called delusional on this forum for it and also told I must be on drugs. Is that manning up to you? So I guess I say that I don't typically deny Jesus the Christ, but don't judge others either for it.

[edit] I should have put in the spirit of what I was testifying of. Not only those that deny persecutions, but any who have been approached by Christians and deny Jesus the Christ, may be avoiding Jesus due to persecutions or not. Those people are potential Christians and should be treated as such, forgiven of denying Jesus the Christ when approaches failed. At some time in their lives they may accept the Lord and turn to Christianity. Are they any the lesser as one who labors in the field at mid day or early in the morning, and each receives their coin at the end of the day (which is also in the scriptures Matthew 20:1-16). Then are them that labor from morning angry with their lord for their coin?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

do you have a link to this please?

On broadcast antenna television nationwide (usa), the last 12 years anyway, there have been a lot(thousands recently) of similar testimonies - miraculous in location,
muslims, etc, asking to be immersed in Y'SHUA'S NAME ,
BORN AGAIN!
PURCHASED by Y'SHUA'S BLOOD - all their sins ATONED FOR !

 

[D2wing]

I'm not sure you understood what I wrote, sorry if I was unclear: (I will refer to scripture below, please advise me if you need the passage numbers)

1. I indicated that Jesus died on the cross and resurrected himself. Jesus is quoted in scripture saying that he alone laid down his life and took it up again. (John 10:17-18)

2. I did not advocate playing dead and denying Jesus the Christ. The Scriptures are plain on the issue, sins against Jesus will be forgiven, but sins against the Father will not. So I said judge not them that deny Jesus the Christ. (Luke 12:8-10, Matthew 12:31-32)

3. Man up: I testify of what God has taught me since he has visited me personally and testified of His resurrected body, even though I've been called delusional on this forum for it and also told I must be on drugs. Is that manning up to you? So I guess I say that I don't typically deny Jesus the Christ, but don't judge others either for it.

[edit] I should have put in the spirit of what I was testifying of. Not only those that deny persecutions, but any who have been approached by Christians and deny Jesus the Christ, may be avoiding Jesus due to persecutions or not. Those people are potential Christians and should be treated as such, forgiven of denying Jesus the Christ when approaches failed. At some time in their lives they may accept the Lord and turn to Christianity. Are they any the lesser as one who labors in the field at mid day or early in the morning, and each receives their coin at the end of the day (which is also in the scriptures Matthew 20:1-16). Then are them that labor from morning angry with their lord for their coin?

 

[D2wing]

You certainly have your own way of looking at things, and I wonder how you make the conclusions you do from both what I said and the scriptures. I cannot discuss it with you because you seem to have some sort of mental filter that skews things. Which is fairly common on here, people tend to overthink and over interpret what the Bible plainly says. Good luck to you.

 

[devin553344]

You certainly have your own way of looking at things, and I wonder how you make the conclusions you do from both what I said and the scriptures. I cannot discuss it with you because you seem to have some sort of mental filter that skews things. Which is fairly common on here, people tend to overthink and over interpret what the Bible plainly says. Good luck to you.

My mental filter is Jesus the Christ, the Holy Spirit of Truth. If you say I'm skewing things then perhaps you could explain your points of view with scriptural references like I did? I guess what I'm seeing from your posts is the same thing you're describing about me. Like you have a mental filter and skewing things.

 

[D2wing]

When someone is intentionally oddball, that is what they are. Beware of such people they are not special with special knowledge. That is witchcraft. You are contrary to scripture and imply things that are not there. Jesus said that whoever denies him, he will deny before the father. You are trying to imply there are loopholes or that other verses nullify what Jesus plainly said. There are always oddballs who try to twist different meanings out of verses and you are one. Don't talk to me unless you are willing to repent of deceit. Jesus said it is finished on the cross. He did not cut it short for selfish reasons, and the verse about sins against the son of man would not refer to denying him as it plainly says in the previous verse. The second verse you refer to says the Holy Ghost. Do not accuse me of your sins. I am not the one contrary to Scripture here. You really need to get right.
and you really need to be under the teaching of someone normal.

 

[TrueBornAgain]

TrueBornAgain : I know how you feel. Sometimes I pray to God and ask Him to stop the Devil for us. Satan has attacked me before, and even though I was able to fight him off myself for a little while (the strength I had must've come from God), I know that we need God's help to defeat him.

Absolutely and we sure do need God's help, all things will come to pass and God knows. Thanks for your kind words in an interesting thread, couldn't agree more

 

[TrueBornAgain]

I didn't think this was going to turn into such a heated discussion.
Apparently and surprisingly someone reported my post where I said laugh my (anagram of backside) off as an abbreviated LM-O, making me think someone may be having trouble accepting reality, the reality is we see things differently.

Anyhow you can say "backside" according to the mods thank goodness lol Even funnier is I have seen at least two other posts in other threads which use 10x stronger abbreviated language and nobody has flagged them. Anyhow sorry if I genuinely offended anyone but not too sorry if you are a troll with a secret agenda !

Indeed we all need to be prepared for the worst, and get right with God

 

[devin553344]

When someone is intentionally oddball, that is what they are. Beware of such people they are not special with special knowledge. That is witchcraft. You are contrary to scripture and imply things that are not there. Jesus said that whoever denies him, he will deny before the father. You are trying to imply there are loopholes or that other verses nullify what Jesus plainly said. There are always oddballs who try to twist different meanings out of verses and you are one. Don't talk to me unless you are willing to repent of deceit. Jesus said it is finished on the cross. He did not cut it short for selfish reasons, and the verse about sins against the son of man would not refer to denying him as it plainly says in the previous verse. The second verse you refer to says the Holy Ghost. Do not accuse me of your sins. I am not the one contrary to Scripture here. You really need to get right.
and you really need to be under the teaching of someone normal.

You mis-understand me I think. What your saying is mostly correct to me in that he who denies confessing Jesus to man will not be confessed to his holy angels or the Father. But in the vineyard analogy it says that he who joins the vineyard work at late day gets the same penny as them that join in at the first hour. Considering that they have nothing to do with Jesus until then nor his apostles.

So my question to you so that you may teach me, considering your normal as suggested, which I am considering since I confess that I don't know everything, is what about them that deny Jesus until the last hour, then confess Jesus to men and work in the vineyard in the end. Are they then saved in your ideas? Or are you judging them yourself as not savable? What you have implied is that Jesus has no forgiveness for such people. Clearly this is a non-Christian view. We all as Christians believe the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. And from discussions on this forum they decided that was near impossible for humans to commit. I think here if you accept forgiveness into your heart you also invite Jesus the Christ into your heart, and that's an important teaching for the people of the world to receive.

The confession of children to father and angels of Jesus the Christ does not indicate an ultimatum like blasphemy against the holy ghost. Do you see the difference? Or am I, like your saying, skewing things in your mind?

And I think your statement that I'm implying witchcraft is a skewed view and strange. In other words I don't understand nor see any scripture that implies witchcraft here.

 

[RDKirk]

I would not renounce my faith, but I would not consider those who did under the circumstances apostates unless they actually abandoned Christianity from that point going forward. If they sought immediate forgiveness then they should be accepted as Christians. Martyrdom is the greatest death possible so they missed out on an opportunity, but you must have the proper mindset beforehand to go against your human instinct.

In military resistance training, we are not taught not to give in to torture under any circumstances.

We are not taught that being broken by torture makes us a traitor.

We are taught that we must resist to the utmost of our ability.

And that if we are broken one day, to come back to who we are, to regain our faith, and force them to break us all over again the next day.

 

[RDKirk]

This is an interesting question. Would it be better for the entire Church to be martyred and annihilated, or to go underground and survive? I think I might prefer to take my faith practice to the catacombs. Being part of the remnant of the Body of Christ might be a higher calling than joining the ranks of martyrs?

Now, that is another aspect.

What is the difference between "renouncing" Christ under severe torture and failing to openly proclaiming Christ in, say, North Korea?

Isn't pretending in public that one is not a Christian the same thing as denying Christ? I can't see a critical difference. Those Christians in North Korea operate under cover--pretend in public not to be Christians--and are very careful who they do share the gospel with...knowing that the next person they speak "Christ" to may be the one who turns them in.

So what is the difference? If we condemn those who break under torture and speak words they don't believe while under severe duress, why not condemn those in North Korea who live publicly as non-Christians and share their gospel only selectively? (We'll ignore the fact that Christianity has increased 10-fold in North Korea by this method over the last 30 years.)

Wait, let's turn the OP's proposition around:

If someone is condemned because he renounces Christ under torture, is one saved if he confesses Christ under torture? Why one and not the other?

 

[RDKirk]

Will those who renounce under torture be considered truly IN Christ? I don't think so...because succumbing to renouncing would be obeying the flesh and not HIS Spirit.
1 John 4:18

Most of us in the West do that a hundred times a day.

A number of years ago, I did a little thing at the end of the day where I got on my knees and asked the Holy Spirit to review the day with me and point out every instance in which I made a decision, took an action, that was in the flesh rather than in the Spirit.

I didn't do that exercise for very long--it really started eating into my sleep time.

 

[RDKirk]

So an all powerful God, one who could intervene at any time, sits back and watches one of his followers being tortured, while not lifting a finger to save that person, and yet we ask the question, would we renounce Him under torture. I'd have a few questions about who was renouncing who.

Where are you going with that? Are you saying that God renounces those who have faith in Him even to death?

 

[devin553344]

Again you are misusing Scripture. You use one teaching to cover a very different situation. You use straw arguments. I didn't say what you claimed I said or did. In every post you misunderstand what is said and you do not seem able to understand what the Bible says. The Vineyard example has nothing to do with denying Christ. I am not going to continue to discuss things with you because you are dishonest and fail to comprehend what you read..

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

[QUOTE=" but in the end just like life if God didn't help then I would fail.[/QUOTE]

And that is the key to our whole walk in the Lord, to being overcomers...not by our might or strength, but by the power/spirit of God. Amen!

Realizing how weak we truly are by nature is the center of our battle. Receiving HIS spirit to empower us to be and do ALL that HE has promised is the whole point of Jesus Christ. HE promises to give us the same spirit (powerful!) that raised Jesus Christ's body from the grave...IF we walk according to HIS spirit and not our flesh.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

i would like to think that i would b faithful unto death, but it is hard to say what it is that i would do.

Ahhhh....but what would HIS spirit alive within do? With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible...

 

[TrueBornAgain]

Psalm 56:41599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
4 I will rejoice in God, because of his a]">[a]word, I trust in God, and will not fear what flesh can do unto me.

Footnotes:

1. Psalm 56:4 He stayeth his conscience upon God’s promise, though he see not present help.

 

[placebo99]

In military resistance training, we are not taught not to give in to torture under any circumstances.

We are not taught that being broken by torture makes us a traitor.

We are taught that we must resist to the utmost of our ability.

And that if we are broken one day, to come back to who we are, to regain our faith, and force them to break us all over again the next day.

I would like to express my deep gratitude for what you bring to the discussion. 99% of posters here, including myself, operate on theoretical or hypothetical terms; it is refreshing to see someone who comes face to face with the realities of torture and would no doubt have sound knowledge of all the horrific and barbaric methods that have to be endured frequently be soldiers today. Thank you, sir.

 

[SAChristian]

Lately I have been reading a little bit of Eusebius's Church History. It seems that parts of the early church were subjected to a shocking level of persecution. What Eusebius writes has left me wondering if people would renounce their faith under torture, and if so, if they could still be considered Christian. So, what's your take?

- - -
I've read a number of responses and wish to add the following:
- When Jesus return's, those dead and alive will appear before Him for final judgement
- Each will be rewarded according to what they have done while on earth, yet salvation cannot be earned by deeds
- What struck me more in revelation, that those who were killed for their faith, were right under God's throne. When I first read that, I realised, should the moment come where your faith is tested as posed in the question, it certainly will not be easy. But elsewhere in scripture, it's stated the Holy Spirit will give us the strength to endure, but in my mind, it remains a choice on the part of the individual.
- In closing, God promises that our bodies might suffer, but He will never allow our souls to damaged in such a moment. Hence, when called upon, the choice ought to be to face it boldly, although not easy.