Would you put your son in a "too too"

[mamaneenie]

ROFL about the dress ups. It reminds me of my son, who loves cars, trucks, and all that. Well anyway, I work 1 morning a week in a creche and Daniel comes along with me. Every week he has to put on the fairy suit with the motor bike helmet. He then gets on the floor with all the trucks and he's wearing fairy wings and a tu tu, and tells everyone he's a butterfly. I don't worry too much because I know that kids don't play dressups their whole life.

 

[Iollain]

O.k maybe I'm a traditionalist but something struck me as odd! I was talking to another mom(she's a baby christian) and she was telling me how her daughter is in ballet. She was saying that she was going to put her son in ballet next yr. O.k.... that's different, but I thought no big deal even tho I Prbly wouldn't! She further went on to say how she will let him wear his sis's too too and dance around the house...... o.k that's different. She then said, that when she paints her daughters nails, and that her son likes to get his nails painted too. I was trying to not make funny faces, and just nodded and said "oh.... okaaaaaay!


I have 4boys, and when I've painted my nails they have sometimes asked (moreso when they were toddlers) if I could paint there's too. I tell them no, b/c if I do it once they will expect it. Anyway maybe I'm just to gender specific, but does this strike you as odd?

One of my neighbours did this with her son, and guess what? He is you know what.

 

[Observer]

I personally don't see 100 pound 6'5 Barbie with size D breasts, a perfect face and platinum blonde hair a tool that will help females grow into "comfortable women". Barbie, and Disney movies where all the female characters have TINY waists and large breasts, and only the evil stepsisters or evil witches aren't this "perfect" shape. And ballet... which people seem to forget is a physically GRUELING career, even if it's all cutesy at first, and you will only be accepted to certain schools if you're thin enough. The stuff that people give to girls when theyre young is disgusting. Most of the "girly" stuff shouldn't even be put on the GIRLS which everyone seems to think they belong to. No wonder girls are growing up with this warped idea of femininity, and feel they have to be all sorts of bizarre things, they're just forced into all of this garbage by their parents.

Not to mention the way Disney movies portray males... tall and muscular and only interested in macho stuff... people worry about their sons being too girly and their daughters being too boyish... but the things that we've assigned male and female can negatively affect both

 

[bliz]

One of my neighbours did this with her son, and guess what? He is you know what.

A beautitian? A make-up artist? An actor? No, I don't know what he is. But I'm sure that whatever he is, it was not caused by a little paint on his fingernails.

 

[selune]

A beautitian? A make-up artist? An actor? No, I don't know what he is. But I'm sure that whatever he is, it was not caused by a little paint on his fingernails.

I was thinking the same thing!!! but didn't want to start some sort of war. Go imagination! I'm so happy that my kids feel free to play dress up or spies or whatever without having to worry about the family thinking that they're odd.

 

[murron]

A beautitian? A make-up artist? An actor? No, I don't know what he is. But I'm sure that whatever he is, it was not caused by a little paint on his fingernails.

while I can understand that nail polish would not cause whatever it is that he is...surely you can see how deliberately choosing to blur that line, at the very least, encourages the decision to act upon those choices. It is neither wholly environment or genetics, but both. The environment we create either encourages positive choices or encourages negative choices. The things we do, teach our children to do, do around our children - these things ALL influence the decisions those children will make later in life about everything from home interior decorating, to relationship issues. I can't change genetics, but I can certainly do everything in my power to be sure that environment encourages what I expect of my children - and in this case, that means not creating options for my boys that will make them decide it is ok to be feminine, and vice versa.

 

[bliz]

while I can understand that nail polish would not cause whatever it is that he is...surely you can see how deliberately choosing to blur that line, at the very least, encourages the decision to act upon those choices. It is neither wholly environment or genetics, but both. The environment we create either encourages positive choices or encourages negative choices. The things we do, teach our children to do, do around our children - these things ALL influence the decisions those children will make later in life about everything from home interior decorating, to relationship issues. I can't change genetics, but I can certainly do everything in my power to be sure that environment encourages what I expect of my children - and in this case, that means not creating options for my boys that will make them decide it is ok to be feminine, and vice versa.

You will need to help me figure out where all the lines are so I don't blur them for anyone.

Clearly nail polish is for girls.... What about having a manicure? Giving a manicure? Pedicure? Is it safe for my son to see a male poditrist?

Skirts - for girls, right? Oh, unless the guy is Scottish and wears the traditional kilt, or Jesus and wears a robe, or a Pacific islander and wears a cloth wrapped around the waist just like the women do... Dang! All Pacific Island men must be gay! Do you think my son being one of the wise men in the CHristmas pagent when he was 8 has warped him? He wore a very fancy robe with faux jewels and everything. AND a feather in his turban that he rather liked.

But wait! I let my daughter wear jeans! Am I blurring any lines for her?

Now, staying at home and taking care of the family - for women? What about cooking? Oh, I know that one! It's for women when done in the home and for men and done as a profession! But most professional male chefs talk about their mother's being a huge influence on their careers, I bet some of them are gay and don't even know it.

And what are we to do with Jesus? He came right out and said that he longed to gather the citizens of Jeruselum to himself, like a mother hen gathers her chicks. That's a rather feminine image of the Son of God - not to mention the imagry in Job of God giving birth to the world.

I trust that you are keeping your sons away from scripture becasue it would be so easy for them to get the wrong idea.

 

[Gwenyfur]

While women are in marriage and the women's forum whining about how their husbands aren't the leaders they're supposed to be...the same women are over here arguing over gender lines and roles. How rediculous....

Let's rephrase the question a little bit if the op doens't mind it too much...

How would you feel if your husband was excessively feminine and he preferred the role of "mother" while you were forced into the role of "father" or "head of the family". Oh wait! That's what's already happening in our families...hrmmmm

What happened to boys doing boy things...climbing trees, playing sports, gender defined dancing, riding bikes, building race cars and in general rough housing with other boys...
meanwhile the girls are playign with dolls and tea parties, slumber parties swing sets and more nuturing pursuits.

There's nothing wrong with having gender defined play for children...after all it's the parents and leaders of tomorrow that we're raising....

If we don't want another generation of ill defined roles, men who are unsure of their physical and spiritual roles in the home, women who aren't able to even cook a meal for their family and so headlong in pursuit of a career that their family takes a backseat to their next promotion...in other words, the average family in America today...

...then by all means

CARRY ON!

If not then get off the world's view of whatever works for you and start training those young men and women for the roles GOD meant for them to fulfill!

 

[selune]

And what's wrong if the children do not like the gender defined roles? A particularly tender soft hearted boy who hates wrestling and rough-housing or a tomboy girl who detests dresses and tea parties? My sons are so tender taking care of their sisters' dolls (what a great way to practice being a good daddy) and my girls are on par with many boys in the sword fighting department ready to defend their friends and have a rollicking good time physically. I think we push the gender specific playing too far. Yes girls tend to play girly things and boys tend to play boyishly, but it's not the end of the world if the boy wants to be included in the dress-up game or if the girl wants to be a swashbuckler. Show your children that an imagination is ok to have. It's not a bad thing to pretend to be something unusual. That's what pretend is all about, your not really that thing, you're PRETENDING to be something. At the end of the day, the pretend goes away and the child having played with mommy or daddy has had a fun time.

 

[selune]

And what's wrong if the children do not like the gender defined roles? A particularly tender soft hearted boy who hates wrestling and rough-housing or a tomboy girl who detests dresses and tea parties? My sons are so tender taking care of their sisters' dolls (what a great way to practice being a good daddy) and my girls are on par with many boys in the sword fighting department ready to defend their friends and have a rollicking good time physically. I think we push the gender specific playing too far. Yes girls tend to play girly things and boys tend to play boyishly, but it's not the end of the world if the boy wants to be included in the dress-up game or if the girl wants to be a swashbuckler. Show your children that an imagination is ok to have. It's not a bad thing to pretend to be something unusual. That's what pretend is all about, you're not really that thing, you're PRETENDING to be something. At the end of the day, the pretend goes away and the child having played with mommy or daddy has had a fun time.

 

[Mrs. Enigma]

The Bible says that men should not put on any garment pertaining to a woman, so I would not do it to my kid.

 

[murron]

And what's wrong if the children do not like the gender defined roles? A particularly tender soft hearted boy who hates wrestling and rough-housing or a tomboy girl who detests dresses and tea parties? My sons are so tender taking care of their sisters' dolls (what a great way to practice being a good daddy) and my girls are on par with many boys in the sword fighting department ready to defend their friends and have a rollicking good time physically. I think we push the gender specific playing too far. Yes girls tend to play girly things and boys tend to play boyishly, but it's not the end of the world if the boy wants to be included in the dress-up game or if the girl wants to be a swashbuckler. Show your children that an imagination is ok to have. It's not a bad thing to pretend to be something unusual. That's what pretend is all about, you're not really that thing, you're PRETENDING to be something. At the end of the day, the pretend goes away and the child having played with mommy or daddy has had a fun time.

Imagination is one thing, but tossing out gender roles in the interest of imagination is how we end up with things like gender confusion, and metrosexual. My 4 year old son has a vivid imagination and on those rare occasions when he makes a comment about wearing nail polish, I simply tell him nail polish is for girls and boys don't wear it. I completely encourage his imagination without encouraging him into activities that could lead him to question his gender responsibility when he is older.

 

[selune]

I don't think that nail polish is an issue for confusion personally any more than a child dressing up as something for Halloween. Dressing as whatever, doesn't mystically transform them into that character (witch, gypsy, Indian, Luke Skywalker...). I've let my son wear nail polish before and it took away the "mystique" that it held for him. Before he had it on he was constantly interested in it because his 2 sisters got to wear it for play, it was more desired because it had been forbidden. After he had worn it (clear) he thought, "huh, don't see what the big deal is." and hasn't mentioned it since. Did I somehow turn him towards gender confusion? I don't believe that is the case at all. In fact, he was more likely guided away from it because it no longer had any draw being off limits to him alone and allowed to his sisters.

 

[murron]

I don't think that nail polish is an issue for confusion personally any more than a child dressing up as something for Halloween. Dressing as whatever, doesn't mystically transform them into that character (witch, gypsy, Indian, Luke Skywalker...). I've let my son wear nail polish before and it took away the "mystique" that it held for him. Before he had it on he was constantly interested in it because his 2 sisters got to wear it for play, it was more desired because it had been forbidden. After he had worn it (clear) he thought, "huh, don't see what the big deal is." and hasn't mentioned it since. Did I somehow turn him towards gender confusion? I don't believe that is the case at all. In fact, he was more likely guided away from it because it no longer had any draw being off limits to him alone and allowed to his sisters.

I'm thinking that part of this difference of opinion could also be that we know our children's personalities. For children who are drawn to things that we say 'no' to, then saying no could indeed increase the curiosity. Other children are content with no and a reasonable explanation. But let me put this in a different context. If your child wanted to smoke or drink would you let them try it just so the mystique would be gone? If you establish the pattern of letting them do something early in life just to 'kill the curiosity', how will you deal with that established pattern of behavior when they get older and the things they want to try are more extreme than nail polish? If no and an explanation aren't enough at 4, 5 or 6...how will it be enough at 13, 14 or 15?

I realize that nail polish, alone, probably isn't enough to cause gender crisis - but, it's the pattern it establishes which can lead to problems. The phrase "a journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step" comes readily to mind. When you let that first step happen, how are you going to change that path later should they continue to follow it? As parents we are charged with training our children up in the ways of the Lord. The single most effective tool we have for that is consistency. If we use one set of guidelines when they are small then try to change those when they are older, we are doing a major disservice to our parenting obligation and we are setting the stage for why our children feel they shouldn't have to listen to us. Saying nail polish is ok because it 'gets it out of their system' but having a cigarette isn't ok for that same reason - well that sets a double standard. Believe me, I've got the age range of kids, I KNOW how well 13 year olds remember those kinds of things and will try to use them to justify what they want. The trade off just isn't worth it to me; I'd rather deal with a whiney 4 year old over nail polish now than a beligerant 13 year old who can't understand why it was ok at 4 but not ok at 13.

 

[Gwenyfur]

And what's wrong if the children do not like the gender defined roles? A particularly tender soft hearted boy who hates wrestling and rough-housing or a tomboy girl who detests dresses and tea parties? My sons are so tender taking care of their sisters' dolls (what a great way to practice being a good daddy) and my girls are on par with many boys in the sword fighting department ready to defend their friends and have a rollicking good time physically. I think we push the gender specific playing too far. Yes girls tend to play girly things and boys tend to play boyishly, but it's not the end of the world if the boy wants to be included in the dress-up game or if the girl wants to be a swashbuckler. Show your children that an imagination is ok to have. It's not a bad thing to pretend to be something unusual. That's what pretend is all about, your not really that thing, you're PRETENDING to be something. At the end of the day, the pretend goes away and the child having played with mommy or daddy has had a fun time.

Children aren't always going to like what they are required to do. For that matter neither do adults, heh. But, guess what...if you teach them while they're young that that's the way life goes...you won't have the teenage rebellion that's so common....and you'll be raising a child into being a responsible adult....something most (NOT all) of the 20 somethings in this world right now haven't a clue on how to be.

Since when has morality, (right and wrong) become subjective to one's own perceptions. If you want to raise the next generation, be careful of what you're raising them to believe, I guaruntee you that by blurring lines, and not learning to tell a child "NO it's wrong" then you're going to be in for one heck of a ride when those teen and post adolescent years come. And I also promise you'll sit there and ask yourself. "Now why does he/she do that??!! or think that way??"

 

[Paid in full]

A boy's sexuality can withstand curiousity about nail polish.

Boys and men have been dancing ballet for rather a long time. Ballet requires a degree of physical fitness that few sports can touch.

Chill.

 

[gracefaith]

What's wrong with letting kids figure a few things out for themselves?

For example, your young son asks for nailpolish while you're putting some on. (Interpretation: Mommy, I want to be like you!) Later, he notices that Daddy doesn't wear nailpolish and asks why. Daddy says, "Boys don't usually wear nailpolish." The boy thinks, I'm a boy. Daddy's a boy. Boys don't wear nailpolish. I guess I won't wear it either.

Is this far-fetched? Won't kids draw associations and align themselves with their own gender by choice?

 

[selune]

I'm thinking that part of this difference of opinion could also be that we know our children's personalities. For children who are drawn to things that we say 'no' to, then saying no could indeed increase the curiosity. Other children are content with no and a reasonable explanation. But let me put this in a different context. If your child wanted to smoke or drink would you let them try it just so the mystique would be gone? If you establish the pattern of letting them do something early in life just to 'kill the curiosity', how will you deal with that established pattern of behavior when they get older and the things they want to try are more extreme than nail polish? If no and an explanation aren't enough at 4, 5 or 6...how will it be enough at 13, 14 or 15?

I realize that nail polish, alone, probably isn't enough to cause gender crisis - but, it's the pattern it establishes which can lead to problems. The phrase "a journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step" comes readily to mind. When you let that first step happen, how are you going to change that path later should they continue to follow it? As parents we are charged with training our children up in the ways of the Lord. The single most effective tool we have for that is consistency. If we use one set of guidelines when they are small then try to change those when they are older, we are doing a major disservice to our parenting obligation and we are setting the stage for why our children feel they shouldn't have to listen to us. Saying nail polish is ok because it 'gets it out of their system' but having a cigarette isn't ok for that same reason - well that sets a double standard. Believe me, I've got the age range of kids, I KNOW how well 13 year olds remember those kinds of things and will try to use them to justify what they want. The trade off just isn't worth it to me; I'd rather deal with a whiney 4 year old over nail polish now than a beligerant 13 year old who can't understand why it was ok at 4 but not ok at 13.

And here is where we have the issue of pick your battles. Smoking, drinking, drugs...all have serious consequences. My 4 year old knows AT HIS YOUNG AGE that those substances can be harmful to his body, and he is not interested in harming himself. His curiosity about fingernail polish (what's that stuff and why are the girls interested in wearing it?) was a harmless curiosity that was satisfied. If you think that all curiosities are on equal ground then I think that that is where the problems arise. I let my kids have some freedom in exploring safe things to find out about them. Do I let them run into traffic? NO. Do I let them take a smoke because they're curious about it? NO. Do I encourage them to go off with a stranger because they are curious about that person's life? NO. Those things have huge dangers associated with them. Do I let them play with a box of dress-up clothes in the basement without supervising who is wearing what outfit (yes, my son has worn a tu-tu and my daughters have worn male flightsuits) YES. They're playing and being silly. That's the message they get. It's ok and safe to play pretend because we're just being silly and having fun. Do I say "hey son, you should dress up like a girl and wear nail polish and go out in public" NO because that's taking the silly play into reality and out of the play world. He knows boys are boys and girls are girls. I don't think letting kids play is blurring lines.

 

[HeatherJay]

*** MOD HAT ON ***

Ladies and gentlemen, this is not a debate forum. Also, it's never acceptable at CF to post statements that could come off as rude or insulting. So, let's all take a deep breath, think about our posts before we post, state our opinions about the subject, and then leave it. It is fine to discuss, but the Parenting forum is not a place for debate. Those sorts of discussions can and should be taken elsewhere. This is an interesting thread and I'd hate to have to start editing posts, or worse, have to close the thread. Thanks, guys.

*** MOD HAT OFF ***

 

[bliz]

Can someone please explain to me what is inherently male or female about certain activities or actions?

Yes, giving birth and nursing babies are exclusivly female activites - no argument there. Having erections is exclusivly male. But after that, I have a hard time thinking of what actions should only be done by men or women, and harder still, those that should only be done by boys or girls and why.

Why is tree climbing male? As a young girl, and clear into my teens, I loved to climb trees . I'd climb up and sit and read and watch the clouds go by... I also liked to camp and backpack and hike and go on canoe trips. None of that made me want to be male, or think I was male.

Why is cooking considered female? Both genders eat... it seems a good idea if everyone knows how to cook somethings. Jesus cooked for the disciples. What further example do we need?

Several people keep talking about the God-given male and female roles...

For the sake of clarity, (and to avoid recreating discussions from other threads), let's leave out any discussion of biological male and female functions, roles in marriage, and roles in the church.

Outside of those three areas of life (biology, marriage and church) what are the God given male and female roles? Why do you think any particular role is male or female?