Would you put your son in a "too too"

[Gwenyfur]

Can someone please explain to me what is inherently male or female about certain activities or actions?

Yes, giving birth and nursing babies are exclusivly female activites - no argument there. Having erections is exclusivly male. But after that, I have a hard time thinking of what actions should only be done by men or women, and harder still, those that should only be done by boys or girls and why.

Why is tree climbing male? As a young girl, and clear into my teens, I loved to climb trees . I'd climb up and sit and read and watch the clouds go by... I also liked to camp and backpack and hike and go on canoe trips. None of that made me want to be male, or think I was male.

Why is cooking considered female? Both genders eat... it seems a good idea if everyone knows how to cook somethings. Jesus cooked for the disciples. What further example do we need?

Several people keep talking about the God-given male and female roles...

For the sake of clarity, (and to avoid recreating discussions from other threads), let's leave out any discussion of biological male and female functions, roles in marriage, and roles in the church.

Outside of those three areas of life (biology, marriage and church) what are the God given male and female roles? Why do you think any particular role is male or female?

our job as parents is to prepare our children for those 3 roles

 

[murron]

It appears this topic has reached an impasse. I look at what the Bible says and I can very clearly see that God intends men to fulfill certain roles and women to fulfill other roles; from specific passages to the overall timbre of the Bible. But I do respect that the same message is not as clear for everyone else.

However, I do have to wonder about one thing which I haven't seen yet. Those who have posted "anti-tutu" have referenced the Bible as their basis while those who are "pro-tutu" are referencing society's modern interpretations of gender roles. So let's put the shoe on the other foot and ask not where the Bible delineates roles but where the Bible blurs them and indicates it is ok to blur them. I'm quite sure the passage regarding 'neither free, nor slave, Jew nor Gentile, male or female' will get referenced at some point so before that happens I will clarify what I am asking to see - a passage that is actually relevant to this issue; the aforementioned passage has to do with OT law and the means by which various groups of people obtained forgiveness and definitely not applicable to this question.

 

[selune]

From my Life Applications NKJV Bible commentary on Deut. 22:5
"This verse commands men and women not to reverse their sexual roles. It is not a statement about clothing styles. Today role rejections are common--there are men who want to become women and women who want to become men. It is not the clothing style that offends God, but using the style to act out a different sex role. God had a purpose in making us uniquely male and female."

As I stated before, a child playing dress-up is not a dangerous thing. If a parent were constantly making a child dress up and act out being the opposite sex, then there is cause for concern. I stand by what I said earlier, letting a child play and be a child is not the issue.

 

[Gwenyfur]

I dunno looks Black and White to me, not some anonymous person' interpretation

5The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. KJV

5"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the LORD your God. NKJV

5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this. NIV

5"A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God. -NASB

Note from McArthur Study Bible: Found only here in the pentateuch, this statute prohibited a man from wearing any item of feminine clothing or ornamentation, or a woman from wearing any item of masculine clothin gor ornamentation. The same word translated "abomination" was used to describe God's veiw of homosexuality. This instance specifically outlawed transvestism. The creation order distinctons between male and female were to be maintained without exception. (cf Gen 1:27).

 

[bliz]

our job as parents is to prepare our children for those 3 roles

And only that? Am I not supposed to prepare my child to be a good neighbor, citizen, friend, employee, supervisor, church member, mentor...

 

[bliz]

It appears this topic has reached an impasse. I look at what the Bible says and I can very clearly see that God intends men to fulfill certain roles and women to fulfill other roles; from specific passages to the overall timbre of the Bible. But I do respect that the same message is not as clear for everyone else.

Once again, I am asking, what are those "certain roles"? If we take away biology, marriage and roles in the church (about which there has already been much discussion on other threads) what are the certain roles that are only for men and women? You have yet to tell me what they are. You are very sure that they exist, and I am asking, what are they?

However, I do have to wonder about one thing which I haven't seen yet. Those who have posted "anti-tutu" have referenced the Bible as their basis while those who are "pro-tutu" are referencing society's modern interpretations of gender roles.
So let's put the shoe on the other foot and ask not where the Bible delineates roles but where the Bible blurs them and indicates it is ok to blur them. I'm quite sure the passage regarding 'neither free, nor slave, Jew nor Gentile, male or female' will get referenced at some point so before that happens I will clarify what I am asking to see - a passage that is actually relevant to this issue; the aforementioned passage has to do with OT law and the means by which various groups of people obtained forgiveness and definitely not applicable to this question.

1. I am not easily insulted, so if you were tyring to do so, it didn't work. I know the foundations of my beliefs and "society's modern interpretation of gender roles" is hardly a great influence on my thinking, mostly becasue I formed my opinons on the subject rather along time ago.

2. On what grounds can you possibly rule Paul's statement 'neither free, nor slave, Jew nor Gentile, male or female' as irrelevant to this discussion? There are many different perspectives on what the passages mean. You can't rule it out becasue it does not support your view.

3. You want me to tell you where the Bible blurs roles. I can't do that because aside from biology, I don't believe that the Bible teaches specific gender roles for men and women. I believe that the Bible teaches mutual submission between husband and wife and that the roles in the church are not different for man and women. There must be specific roles for the lines between the roles to be blurred. I don't think there are specific roles. And thus far, you have been unable to tell me of any. (Again, I'm sure you disagree with me about marriage and church, but let's leave that out for now.)

I ask again: what are the roles that are unique to men and women?

 

[Gwenyfur]

And only that? Am I not supposed to prepare my child to be a good neighbor, citizen, friend, employee, supervisor, church member, mentor...

If you prepare your child for those 3 roles, that child will be able to fulfill all the roles you mention as well as any others you may decide to separate out and specify.

 

[bliz]

I dunno looks Black and White to me, not some anonymous person' interpretation

5The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. KJV

Note from McArthur Study Bible: Found only here in the pentateuch, this statute prohibited a man from wearing any item of feminine clothing or ornamentation, or a woman from wearing any item of masculine clothin gor ornamentation. The same word translated "abomination" was used to describe God's veiw of homosexuality. This instance specifically outlawed transvestism

Please explain to me, bearing in mind that the Bible is eternal truth for all times and for all cultures, what clothing is universally masculine and which clothing is universally feminine. Beyond bras and jock straps, slips and garter belts, my list gets a little thin...

Do you only wear dresses? If you wear pants, and slacks and jeans and T shirts and button down shirts and polo shirts... you are wearing clothing that was originaly designed for men. The men and women in the Bible were all wearing robes which are a lot more like dresses than pants... What are we to make of that? Many men in the world continue to wear robes today. Are they doing something wrong?

The creation order distinctons between male and female were to be maintained without exception. (cf Gen 1:27).

What does this mean? I have no idea what "creation order distinctions" are.

I am not advocting that men and women should dress to deceive people as to their gender, which was something that was often done in Biblical times by pagans. It was part of the sexual orgies of the day... one would dress up as the opposit sex and try and lure someone into a sexual encounter with them, only to surprise them with what lay beneath the robes.

I do not think we should encourage boys to dress like girls or girls to dress like boys... but nailing down exactly what that looks like or means is hard to do and coming up with a lot of pink and blue rules is not very helpful.

Men and boys who dance ballet do not wear tutus. Little boys playing dress up might. So might full grown men who are playing tooth fairy, usually under duress or after losing a bet. I believe that hyper vigilance and cast iron rules about what is male and female attire are only gong to create more confusion and worry and concern about sexuality within children. I can only imagine the harm done to a little boy whose mother is always correcting what he wears: "Don't wear that, you look like a girl!" "That's an abomination that you like that pink shirt!" Start saving for his therapy fund now!

 

[Gwenyfur]

Please explain to me, bearing in mind that the Bible is eternal truth for all times and for all cultures, what clothing is universally masculine and which clothing is universally feminine. Beyond bras and jock straps, slips and garter belts, my list gets a little thin...

Do you only wear dresses? If you wear pants, and slacks and jeans and T shirts and button down shirts and polo shirts... you are wearing clothing that was originaly designed for men. The men and women in the Bible were all wearing robes which are a lot more like dresses than pants... What are we to make of that? Many men in the world continue to wear robes today. Are they doing something wrong?



What does this mean? I have no idea what "creation order distinctions" are.

I am not advocting that men and women should dress to deceive people as to their gender, which was something that was often done in Biblical times by pagans. It was part of the sexual orgies of the day... one would dress up as the opposit sex and try and lure someone into a sexual encounter with them, only to surprise them with what lay beneath the robes.

I do not think we should encourage boys to dress like girls or girls to dress like boys... but nailing down exactly what that looks like or means is hard to do and coming up with a lot of pink and blue rules is not very helpful.

Men and boys who dance ballet do not wear tutus. Little boys playing dress up might. So might full grown men who are playing tooth fairy, usually under duress or after losing a bet. I believe that hyper vigilance and cast iron rules about what is male and female attire are only gong to create more confusion and worry and concern about sexuality within children. I can only imagine the harm done to a little boy whose mother is always correcting what he wears: "Don't wear that, you look like a girl!" "That's an abomination that you like that pink shirt!" Start saving for his therapy fund now!

1- My step sons are grown men. With no confusion on what their expected roles in life should be.
2- My daughters are rather feminine and girlie and there is *no* sexual confusion for them either. My teenager is quite well adjusted, a junior taking on college level classes, and already racking up scholarships for college playing her french horn. Outside of that she's active in youth outreach ministries and loves the Lord her God.

As far as I can tell, my kids are quite well adjusted, thank you.

 

[ZooMom]

Temp closed