Would You Help To Rebuild The Jewish Temple?

parousia70 · Dec 15, 2003

Atkin said:
Why was Jesus not present at the Temple during animal sacrifices?

Why did Jesus avoid animal sacrifices?

And this address my question about the exhortation to "flee Judea" how exactly?

Atkin · Dec 15, 2003

parousia70 said:
And this address my question about the exhortation to "flee Judea" how exactly?

Oh,

Our focus is on the Jewish Temple

The thread is about the Jewish Temple

excuse me

Big Mouth Nana · Dec 16, 2003

ikester said:
I agree...we need not the temple to be rebuilt...but some unbelieving jews do want it rebuilt...earlier in this thread there was debate as to it being the holy place...and why would it be called the holy place...since God does accept any sacrafice...Jesus shed his blood for us....

I was reading today, searching for answers on this temple issue, and I believe that I found the reason for it in Isaiah:
Isaiah 66:1-6 ~ Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I ALSO WILL CHOOSE their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. ( Rev.1:7 ~Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which PIERCED him, ( the Jews) and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.) Even so, amen.
What is a bummer, after we are in the New Jerusalem, they will have to keep making the animal sacrifices. There is no more salvation through Jesus, that's done after the last Jew is saved, and we go home....Isaiah 56:7 ~ Even them will I bring to MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. This is all something that has to come to pass for the Jews. The temple has to be rebuilt because of their transgressions against God.

Dad Ernie · Dec 16, 2003

Greetings BGH,

This is all something that has to come to pass for the Jews. The temple has to be rebuilt because of their transgressions against God.

I look forward to the day when you learn differently and you realize how many people you led astray.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

parousia70 · Dec 16, 2003

Atkin said:
Oh,

Our focus is on the Jewish Temple

The thread is about the Jewish Temple

excuse me

No prob.
It's just that you quoted my question.

Generally, when I quote someones specific question, I do so to offer a specific reply to that question, and generally, I find that other posters do the same.

Therefore when you quoted my question, I figured you were following that pattern and offering a specific response, but I was unclear how you response addressed my question at all. Did you have any comment on my question or did you simply quote it by accident?

If your only desire was to comment on how you believed my question had strayed off topic, you could have just said so. ( BTW, the thread is about individuals desires to assist in the Jewish temple rebuilding today, and not the Jewish temple 2000 years ago, so your post is just as off topic as mine anyway)

You are excused.

Big Mouth Nana · Dec 16, 2003

Dad Ernie said:
Greetings BGH,

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I look forward to the day when you learn differently and you realize how many people you led astray.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Take your own advice Ernie. At least I don't call people with a different rapture view heretics. You need to pull your head off of the internet reading "mans" version of the bible, and get into the bible itself. Your true colors just came to light brother!!!! I'll pray for you.

Atkin · Dec 16, 2003

parousia70 said:
No prob.
It's just that you quoted my question.

Generally, when I quote someones specific question, I do so to offer a specific reply to that question, and generally, I find that other posters do the same.

Therefore when you quoted my question, I figured you were following that pattern and offering a specific response, but I was unclear how you response addressed my question at all. Did you have any comment on my question or did you simply quote it by accident?

If your only desire was to comment on how you believed my question had strayed off topic, you could have just said so. ( BTW, the thread is about individuals desires to assist in the Jewish temple rebuilding today, and not the Jewish temple 2000 years ago, so your post is just as off topic as mine anyway)

You are excused.

Well since we are on the topic now, we can discuss the Temple of Today.

My reference to Jesus was to drive home the fact that Jesus does not change

and in the same way as He did not extol the holiness of that Temple, Jesus

the Jew would not command anyone to build a Temple today.

When He said He would raise the Temple in 3 days if destroyed , the Jews thought he meant the physical structure. They were wrong.

So no Christian or Jew should build a Temple today since Jesus had nothing
to do Temple sacrifices during His ministry when the temple stood.

A Temple today is definitely linked to the status of one 2000 years ago in God's eyes. Nothing has changed regarding God's NON desire for animal sacrifices and God's non-command for a 3rd Temple to be built.

No command has come from God to authorise any leader to rebuild the temple.

parousia70 · Dec 16, 2003

Atkin said:
Well since we are on the topic now, we can discuss the Temple of Today.

My reference to Jesus was to drive home the fact that Jesus does not change

and in the same way as He did not extol the holiness of that Temple, Jesus

the Jew would not command anyone to build a Temple today.

When He said He would raise the Temple in 3 days if destroyed , the Jews thought he meant the physical structure. They were wrong.

So no Christian or Jew should build a Temple today since Jesus had nothing
to do Temple sacrifices during His ministry when the temple stood.

A Temple today is definitely linked to the status of one 2000 years ago in God's eyes. Nothing has changed regarding God's NON desire for animal sacrifices and God's non-command for a 3rd Temple to be built.

No command has come from God to authorise any leader to rebuild the temple.

I find nothing at all to disagree with you on this.

Your comments are spot on!

WOW!
Whoda thunk you and I would see eye to eye?

Now, I look forward to ikester offering a reply to my querry on the "fleeing".

Atkin · Dec 16, 2003

By His Grace said:
. ( Rev.1:7 ~Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which PIERCED him, ( the Jews) and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.) Even so, amen.
What is a bummer, after we are in the New Jerusalem, they will have to keep making the animal sacrifices. There is no more salvation through Jesus, that's done after the last Jew is saved, and we go home....Isaiah 56:7 ~ Even them will I bring to MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. This is all something that has to come to pass for the Jews. The temple has to be rebuilt because of their transgressions against God.

After we are in the New Jerusalem refers to Revelation 21- 22, all sinners would have been ALREADY destroyed in Rev 20:8-15

There is NO SIN in the New Jerusalem and there is no need for sacrifices.

NO TEMPLE AT ALL IN NEW JERUSALEM
REV 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

You should be aware of that .

Is there an extension of ANIMAL blood SALVATION after Rev 20 to Jews OR ANYONE?

Trish1947 · Dec 16, 2003

Atkin said:
After we are in the New Jerusalem refers to Revelation 21- 22, all sinners would have been ALREADY destroyed in Rev 20:8-15

There is NO SIN in the New Jerusalem and there is no need for sacrifices.

NO TEMPLE AT ALL IN NEW JERUSALEM
REV 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

You should be aware of that .

Is there an extension of ANIMAL blood SALVATION after Rev 20 to Jews OR ANYONE?

Gee, where have you been lately, Don't think that they will try to build a temple huh? Isaiah says they do.. take a look at this website, and see whats going on over there in Isreal right now.. check out the whole page.http://www.templeinstitute.org/current-events/ephodcompleted.html This is the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel, and Jesus.

Big Mouth Nana · Dec 16, 2003

Atkin said:
After we are in the New Jerusalem refers to Revelation 21- 22, all sinners would have been ALREADY destroyed in Rev 20:8-15

There is NO SIN in the New Jerusalem and there is no need for sacrifices.

NO TEMPLE AT ALL IN NEW JERUSALEM
REV 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

You should be aware of that .

Is there an extension of ANIMAL blood SALVATION after Rev 20 to Jews OR ANYONE?

I am aware of these verses, but there are still people on the earth after the New Jerusalem descends. That is what "The Mountain" of the Lord is, Isaiah 2:2 ~ And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.....The New Jerusalem is going to descend over this mountain of the Lord. This is after the new heavens, and new earth.
...Zech 8:3 ~ Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD of hosts the holy mountain....

Just when do you think that this scripture took place? Isaiah 56:7 ~ Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. When was His house called a house of prayer for ALL people? NEVER, when it came to burnt offerings and sacrifices. That was a Jewish thing. There are going to be Jews, as well as others on the earth after the new heavens and earth are made. The Jews here will have to offer sacrifices. They missed out on the sacrifice of Jesus by rejecting Him. We are going to be ruling the nations, so there are people here Atkin...Rev 2:26 ~ And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the NATIONS. The temple will be rebuilt for the wrong reasons surely, but it is quite sure that the AC is going to be sitting in their rebuilt temple, that they think that their Messiah is coming to sit in. I believe that is what this scripture means...John 5:43 ~ I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive...the AC.

Is there an extension of ANIMAL blood SALVATION after Rev 20 to Jews OR ANYONE

Not in Revelation there isn't. You have to take the bible as a whole. Isaiah is a really good book for information.

Just The Facts · Dec 16, 2003

Hi There is no doubt that the Jews with the help of the Baptists and pentecostals will rebuild the Temple or Try to but WW III will come out of it.

Just because the Jews build it doesn't make it a Temple of God.

Dad Ernie

Word studies are useless as they reveal nothing but the doctrines of men.

Each verse must be taken in the overall context of what is being said before and after the verse.

For example in Rev 13

3: And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

No many including the Baptists and Pentecostals teach that because it says him and He that proves this is a man and not a kingdom like evry other Beast in prophecy.

such ASSUMPTIONS are out of context.

I call my car a she is it really a person. In the Canadian National Anthem Canada is referred to as a pronoun.

"with glowing hearts we see thee rise"

Now I know this is not the Bible but people are people god refers to his church as a Bride does that make the Church a person. Of course not.

Each verse must be read in context.

Now I suggest you read Rev very, very carefully .............if you do this you will see that the seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls ARE THE SAME EVENTS ALL SEVEN OF THEM.

There seems to be a general misunderstanding of who this warning is for it is not for the Pagans it is for Christianity.

the AC does not want to fool Jews or Muslims or Atheists they are already fooled he wants to fool Christianity.

It will be mainstream Christianity that murders the Great tribulation saints.

by his Grace

You are in error on your understanding of Isaiah 57:

This is about Jesus being born and Christians prayers and deeds being acceptable sacrifices to God.

One of the keys to understanding this chapter is to look at verse

8: The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Here God says he will Gather the Gentiles to him those are the others. The House of Prayer is us, we are his Temple, our prayers and deeds are the Acceptable sacrifice being talked about.

You are lost because you think the Jews are all of the Tribes of Israel they are not Christianity or core Christianity is the House of Joseph or the Lost tribes.

Isaiah continues

10: His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

This is the Pharisees that are being prophesied against

Mt:23:16: Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mt:23:17: Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mt:23:19: Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Mt:23:24: Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Mt:23:26: Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jn:9:39: And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Jn:9:40: And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Isaiah's reference to them being like dogs is saying they are like Gentiles without understanding.

The bit about the Mountain is about Holy Jerusalem but not in the yet physical sense you do not yet see Holy Jerusalem but it is there ever advancing Jesus has been Set above all the Mountains (kings of the Earth}.

Just as Paul says

22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

You say Isaiah is a good source for proof that God wants the Jews to build another Temple and that God will accept their animal sacrifice, I say you are lost.

What You say is right!!!!! If you wish to ignore the rest of scripture which you seem to be doing.

People ANIMAL SACRIFICE WAS NEVER ABLE TO TAKE AWAY SIN

GOD WAS NEVER PLEASED WITH IT AND HE NEVER WILL BE.

THAT IS WHY HE NAILED IT TO THE CROSS.

The AC will bring it back and all who help him build the Temple and start it will have the mark of the Beast.

Dad Ernie · Dec 16, 2003

Greetins Just the Facts,

Dad Ernie

Word studies are useless as they reveal nothing but the doctrines of men.

Each verse must be taken in the overall context of what is being said before and after the verse.

For example in Rev 13

3: And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

No many including the Baptists and Pentecostals teach that because it says him and He that proves this is a man and not a kingdom like evry other Beast in prophecy.

such ASSUMPTIONS are out of context.

I call my car a she is it really a person. In the Canadian National Anthem Canada is referred to as a pronoun.

"with glowing hearts we see thee rise"

Now I know this is not the Bible but people are people god refers to his church as a Bride does that make the Church a person. Of course not.

Each verse must be read in context.

Now I suggest you read Rev very, very carefully .............if you do this you will see that the seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls ARE THE SAME EVENTS ALL SEVEN OF THEM.

There seems to be a general misunderstanding of who this warning is for it is not for the Pagans it is for Christianity.

the AC does not want to fool Jews or Muslims or Atheists they are already fooled he wants to fool Christianity.

It will be mainstream Christianity that murders the Great tribulation saints

I might agree with you except I would say the "latter day church". Also, the AC is a spirit and it is the Beast that wages war against the saints. There are also those "beheaded" for Christ's sake, and I believe that that will be by Muslims. Overall the A/C SPIRIT is the one directing this war (behind the scenes). Those verses definately are FOR THE Saints of God. In fact, "tribulation" is for the saints" and "wrath remains for the ungodly".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Big Mouth Nana · Dec 16, 2003

Just The Facts said:
Hi There is no doubt that the Jews with the help of the Baptists and pentecostals will rebuild the Temple or Try to but WW III will come out of it.

Just because the Jews build it doesn't make it a Temple of God.

Dad Ernie

Word studies are useless as they reveal nothing but the doctrines of men.

Each verse must be taken in the overall context of what is being said before and after the verse.

For example in Rev 13

3: And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

No many including the Baptists and Pentecostals teach that because it says him and He that proves this is a man and not a kingdom like evry other Beast in prophecy.

such ASSUMPTIONS are out of context.

I call my car a she is it really a person. In the Canadian National Anthem Canada is referred to as a pronoun.

"with glowing hearts we see thee rise"

Now I know this is not the Bible but people are people god refers to his church as a Bride does that make the Church a person. Of course not.

Each verse must be read in context.

Now I suggest you read Rev very, very carefully .............if you do this you will see that the seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls ARE THE SAME EVENTS ALL SEVEN OF THEM.

There seems to be a general misunderstanding of who this warning is for it is not for the Pagans it is for Christianity.

the AC does not want to fool Jews or Muslims or Atheists they are already fooled he wants to fool Christianity.

It will be mainstream Christianity that murders the Great tribulation saints.

by his Grace

You are in error on your understanding of Isaiah 57:

This is about Jesus being born and Christians prayers and deeds being acceptable sacrifices to God.

One of the keys to understanding this chapter is to look at verse

8: The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Here God says he will Gather the Gentiles to him those are the others. The House of Prayer is us, we are his Temple, our prayers and deeds are the Acceptable sacrifice being talked about.

You are lost because you think the Jews are all of the Tribes of Israel they are not Christianity or core Christianity is the House of Joseph or the Lost tribes.

Isaiah continues

10: His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

This is the Pharisees that are being prophesied against

Mt:23:16: Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mt:23:17: Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mt:23:19: Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Mt:23:24: Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Mt:23:26: Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jn:9:39: And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Jn:9:40: And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Isaiah's reference to them being like dogs is saying they are like Gentiles without understanding.

The bit about the Mountain is about Holy Jerusalem but not in the yet physical sense you do not yet see Holy Jerusalem but it is there ever advancing Jesus has been Set above all the Mountains (kings of the Earth}.

Just as Paul says

22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

You say Isaiah is a good source for proof that God wants the Jews to build another Temple and that God will accept their animal sacrifice, I say you are lost.

What You say is right!!!!! If you wish to ignore the rest of scripture which you seem to be doing.

People ANIMAL SACRIFICE WAS NEVER ABLE TO TAKE AWAY SIN

GOD WAS NEVER PLEASED WITH IT AND HE NEVER WILL BE.

THAT IS WHY HE NAILED IT TO THE CROSS.

The AC will bring it back and all who help him build the Temple and start it will have the mark of the Beast.

Hi There is no doubt that the Jews with the help of the Baptists and pentecostals will rebuild the Temple or Try to but WW III will come out of it.

Rofl...Baptists and Pentecostals???? Why did you choose them? I can might see the Baptists helping support this, but not the Pentecostals. I am Assembly of God, are we going to jump on the band wagon also? NOT ME!!!!!

by his Grace

You are in error on your understanding of Isaiah 57:

This is about Jesus being born and Christians prayers and deeds being acceptable sacrifices to God.

One of the keys to understanding this chapter is to look at verse

8: The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Here God says he will Gather the Gentiles to him those are the others. The House of Prayer is us, we are his Temple, our prayers and deeds are the Acceptable sacrifice being talked about.

I know that this is the regathering of the Jews, and Gentiles will be with them. Nowhere in this chapter does it talk about the birth of Jesus either.
That statement is impossible just the facts. It says that their "burnt offerings and sacrifices" WILL BE accepted. Unless people are sacrificing burnt offerings inside of us, since you said "the house of prayer is us", it will be interesting to see burnt sacrifices inside our Spiritual bodies. "It is quite evident that this mountain of the Lord is the New Jerusalem, since it says this....Isaiah 2:2 ~ And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
I guess it is hard for people to look ahead at the New Jerusalem, but there will be people on the earth, Jew and Gentile, and the Jews will be offering up burnt sacrifices. Basically what is going to be happening here, God is going to let them do what they have done for eons. We will be in the New Jerusalem becuse we did accept Gods Son.

You say Isaiah is a good source for proof that God wants the Jews to build another Temple and that God will accept their animal sacrifice, I say you are lost.

I didn't say that. I said it was a good book for information. Could you please use another word besides "lost" when referring to me? I'm not lost, but saved through the blood of Jesus, LOL.

Trish1947 · Dec 16, 2003

Dad Ernie said:
Greetins Just the Facts,

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I might agree with you except I would say the "latter day church". Also, the AC is a spirit and it is the Beast that wages war against the saints. There are also those "beheaded" for Christ's sake, and I believe that that will be by Muslims. Overall the A/C SPIRIT is the one directing this war (behind the scenes). Those verses definately are FOR THE Saints of God. In fact, "tribulation" is for the saints" and "wrath remains for the ungodly".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

The Persecution will be coming from so called Christians, that have accepted the rebuilding of the temple, and those in charge of the Temple. This new temple has already been given a name by the Temple Institute. It's going to be called, "The World Peace Temple of Prayer." Nice name, since the Anti-Christ is going to be running the thing. People will be willing to accept this temple because for awhile since everyone is invited eventually, even Arabs, probably, it will give a short peace. Very short. People are so fed up with the Arab/Isreali conflicts that they will be willing to accept anything that comes along that makes peace.http://www.templeinstitute.org/about.html

ikester · Dec 17, 2003

parousia70 said:
I find nothing at all to disagree with you on this.

Your comments are spot on!

WOW!
Whoda thunk you and I would see eye to eye?

Now, I look forward to ikester offering a reply to my querry on the "fleeing".

Matt.24 v.15-16.....When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..spoken by Daniel the prophet..stand in the holy place...whoso readeth..let him understand..then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains....

how many events are to come to pass and how many times are they to flee...according to these verses....one event and one chance to hit the road.....

parousia70 · Dec 17, 2003

ikester said:
Matt.24 v.15-16.....When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..spoken by Daniel the prophet..stand in the holy place...whoso readeth..let him understand..then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains....

how many events are to come to pass and how many times are they to flee...according to these verses....one event and one chance to hit the road.....

Fascinating.
What then do you make of Luke 21:20-21?

"20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This Passage is directly paralell to Matt 24:15-16, and all scholars are in unanimous agreement that these verses were fulfilled in the 1st century.

Perhaps you want to ammend your statement to include two "fleeings of Judea" seperated by thousands of years?

Or is it your contention that Luke 21:20-21 has not yet come to pass?

Trish1947 · Dec 17, 2003

Fascinating.
What then do you make of Luke 21:20-21?

"20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto

Matthew 24: Must be future, V. 21 says "For then shall be GREAT tribulation, such as was NOT since the Beginning of the world to this time, no, nor EVER shall be." How can this aready have been fulfilled? The Jews have suffered under Pharoah for 400 years, beaten, slain, children murdered, invaded over and over again by many armies in the past, Temples distroyed over and over, dispersed into other countries such as Babylon. What happend in AD 70 by Titus invading was not something out of the ordinary Jewish experience. And Yes, the New Testament Church did suffer tribulation, were tortured, burned at the stake, crusified, " many days".. But it also happened at the time of the Inquisition so that doesnt fit, the suffering He talks about is something that is on such a massive scale that it never has happened before since the beginning of time.. When the temple is rebuilt, and the Anti-Christ claims himself God, then it will be such as we have never seen in anytime in history.

Matthew 24 is endtime events.
All of this is future after Isreal was to become a Nation again.

Covenant Heart · Dec 17, 2003

Trish: You say that the events of AD 70 were not extraordinary in Jewish history. I think that familiarity with Josephus "Wars of the Jews" might lead you to reconsider that stand. A leader of Jewish forces (he was Jewish) in Galilee and later as a close friend of Emperor Titus, Josephus certainly had a unique perspective on that situation. And as an historian contemporary with the apostolic age, Josephus work has the respect of NT scholars.

I dont care to post details, but as I see his work sitting on the South wall of my study, I can honestly say that I have no problem whatsoever believing that those sufferings were worse than anything before or that Jesus knew would happen after that time. Of course, it is possible that Jesus was using idiom (which I am not inclined to do at that point). But even read literally, my take is that this judgment still stands.

As for Matt 24 referring to the future, part of it does. Jesus Christ is coming again as he said he would. Where Matt 24 is concerned, the question is where we make the cut-off. One thing--to my ears, Mat 24:29 sounds just an awful lot like Acts 2:19-20. Blessings!

Covenant Heart

ikester · Dec 17, 2003

parousia70 said:
Fascinating.
What then do you make of Luke 21:20-21?

"20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This Passage is directly paralell to Matt 24:15-16, and all scholars are in unanimous agreement that these verses were fulfilled in the 1st century.

Perhaps you want to ammend your statement to include two "fleeings of Judea" seperated by thousands of years?

Or is it your contention that Luke 21:20-21 has not yet come to pass?

well...now that you've brought Luke in the equation....two flees...stressed for two events...

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