Would you help me by posting verses as to the great tribulation events?

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 58:

He just explained what the calamity of that generation would be like.

Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' second coming and gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, second coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hoses 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), will not pass, that is, will not die off completely, until the future tribulation and second coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until seventy or eighty years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the second coming will occur right before, like one year, before that generation will pass: that is, 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the second coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last seven years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Interplanner said in post 58:

It was in Judea and immediate and direct.

Regarding Matthew 24:16, there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today, and they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Interplanner said in post 58:

After v29, it broadens out to universal scope, because the end of the world was expected quickly after the DofJ.

The timing referred to Matthew 24:29-30 doesn't refer to what was "expected", but refers to Jesus' own words about when his second coming must occur in relation to the never-fulfilled tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Interplanner said in post 58:

Unless the Father decided against that, which he did.

Are you thinking of Acts 1:7? If so, that could mean that it wasn't for the apostles to know at that time the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming, when he will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21, Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7, Zechariah 14:3-21, Isaiah 2:1-4). Acts 1:7 doesn't require that no believers will ever come to know the date of the second coming before it happens. Similarly, Matthew 24:36,42,44 doesn't require that. For Matthew 24:36,42,44 also refers to Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the second coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at some point in the future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the second coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of the second coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the second coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the second coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the second coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the second coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

Interplanner said in post 58:

This is coherent with 2 Pet 3.

Are you thinking of 2 Peter 3:10? If so, in the day of the Lord will indeed occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface, for the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his second coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the thousand years, the Gog and Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat at least seven more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b) before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' second coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord, for it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a thousand-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

Interplanner said in post 58:

Look, anyway, at the usual Hebraic way of saying things: a few people in Jerusalem had the experience of speaking, but the vision said "all people."

In Acts 2:17, the original Greek word (pas, G3956) translated as "all" can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12), just as in Joel 2:28, the original Hebrew word (kol, H3605) translated as "all" can mean "all manner of" (Leviticus 19:23). Neither word has to mean absolutely all. All manner of people receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as all manner of people are saved (Revelation 5:9b).

 

[Interplanner]

Your research on all shows why the material is not literal.

In general, you have too much to say. "A good conversation is 2-3 points at a time, and then asking a question about what the other meant and then listening" --Rabbi D. Prager.

For ex., on Mt 24 and Judea. You could ask 'do you mean in Judea in the mid-first century or in Judea now?' Your firehose of information flitting all over the centuries and all over the NT to grab soundbytes or atomized information is incoherent.

It is not a firehose of Scripture, because futurism is an amateurish shredding and reassembling of everything--everything in Scripture.

For ex., instead of actually realizing what Acts 1 is saying about 'it is not for us to know' you are a firehose of trying to know.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Interplanner]

So Israel sins and lives safely in the millenium, collecting cattle?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 65:

Gog will attack Israel after the time of Armageddon ends.

That's right, if by "the time of Armageddon" you mean the time of Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:19-21. For Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-9 are two different events, separated by over a thousand years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the first event, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-3), whereas after the second event, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' second coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the thousand years are over that the Gog and Magog event will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

vinsight4u said in post 65:

But first, Israel will return to her land and dwell safely.

That's right.

The Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will not occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls, and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they will not be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11). The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least seven years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack will not have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel will not occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least three times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' second coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Interplanner]

Vin, it's probably about the 1st century. Why should we look so far beyond it when so many traumatic things happened in it?

 

[shturt678]

That's right, if by "the time of Armageddon" you mean the time of Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:19-21. For Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-9 are two different events, separated by over a thousand years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the first event, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-3), whereas after the second event, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' second coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the thousand years are over that the Gog and Magog event will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).



That's right.

The Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will not occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls, and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they will not be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11). The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least seven years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack will not have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel will not occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least three times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' second coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

A couple of "Great Tribulations, a few 2nd Comings of Jesus and even throw in a few "battles," ie, only one place in the O.T. reveals the two Comings of Jesus, ie, at His Incarnation and at his Parousia. Even in the N.T. only two Comings, ie, at His Incarnation and at his Parousia. To add a 3rd Coming, and even heard of a 4th recently, isn't this really pulling and tugging at the Scriptures my friend Bible2? Just your ol' friend Jack

 

[Interplanner]

It is really hard to understand why such precision is attempted in a book where Babylon is squashed 3x, and where a massive effort goes into getting evil-spirit-moved evil kings to Armageddon, only to drop the story and to have merely 1 line mention it 3 chapters later. The songs are great in those 3 chapters, don't get me wrong, but the idea that this all sequences like a Volvo engine is looking silly.

Anyone ready for a down to earth discussion about the 1st century and the unequalled crisis then? (Hint: Great Tribulation is not a TM'd name. as though it were a product rolled out by Lindsay in the 70s. It is just about an enormous crisis in Israel. There were a few in the inter-testament period and even the 1st century (like the famine in 49) but really, you can't put anything above the Great Revolt and the Siege in 66+ for about 4 centuries either direction, maybe more. so try again to read the material as heard by people then. It is a very smart first step.

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 71:

To add a 3rd Coming, and even heard of a 4th recently, isn't this really pulling and tugging at the Scriptures my friend Bible2?

Note that nothing that has been presented teaches or requires any more than two comings of Jesus Christ.

 

[Interplanner]

I think shturt means from the view of the OT, which feature is called 'flattening': all the events are at the end of time, on one mural, appearing to be part of or on top of each other.

 

[shturt678]

Note that nothing that has been presented teaches or requires any more than two comings of Jesus Christ.

That's what I was waiting for, we agree! Jesus Came and Coming again, that ol' math problem again: 1 + 1 = 2 Comings. Now we're moving forward, together, How does it feel Bible2? Feels great in my corner.

 

[Interplanner]

It would depend on if you call the rapture event, as people often take it here, to be a coming or not. then there is the question of whether it is a coming for God to pour out wrath on Israel as in 70 AD (Lk 21, 1 Thess 2)

 

[shturt678]

It would depend on if you call the rapture event, as people often take it here, to be a coming or not. then there is the question of whether it is a coming for God to pour out wrath on Israel as in 70 AD (Lk 21, 1 Thess 2)

I think the answer to the question regarding God's wrath today lies in understanding, not so much with the "3" Comings of Jesus (Incarnation, before a Tribulation, then one after, and even heard of a 4th recently on another thread, but understanding the "3" Parousias. 1) The Antichrist's parousia (IIThess.2:9) 2) The Lord's NARROW SENSE: The Lord came, Incarnation, and Coming again in the last day (Mk.13:24-37). 3) The Lord's WIDE SENSE: The Coming of the Lord in the last day + God's wrath today of 'preliminary judgments.' :o

My point is if we are awaiting for a 'great tribulation' to come, and it's being poured out today, what an eternal type surprise one will have upon one's passing. I don't know about you, but I do not like head on collision type surprises especially while in the lake of fire forever without any pain meds. available. Tribulation today! God help us.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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