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Would it be just for the US government to burn people at the stake for failing to count every grain of sand on the earth? If not, why?Does man get to act in the same manner?
Where does this nonsense of man being allowed to act in the sovereign manner of God come from?
Romans 5 doesn’t say anything about God imputing Adam’s sin on anyone.People are in the lake of fire because of the sin of Adam imputed (Ro 5:17, 12-14) to them, which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ being imputed to the redeemed (Ro 5:18-19).
What has changed between the earliest church and today ?Thou shalt not put the Lord your God to the test.
Neither God nor God's people are specimens to be examined.
No one need jump through hoops to prove anything, people have God's word. So be a Berean, ask God to give personal understanding while seeking His face. Desire only what is right and true and from God.
And the part about Pharaoh hardening his own heart (Ex 7:13-14, 22, 8:15, 19, 32, 9:7, 34-35)?First of all God hardened Pharaohs heart because He knew that Pharaoh would not allow the Israelites to leave except under compulsion. This is why God hardened Pharaohs heart.
This is an instance of the free-will & determinism (or sovereignty of God) issue. Logically speaking, God can both be the determiner of the state of Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh the exerciser of free will in hardening his own heart. See the Free Will and Determinism postings.And the part about Pharaoh hardening his own heart (Ex 7:13-14, 22, 8:15, 19, 32, 9:7, 34-35)?
God bound him to his own hardening of his heart so that Pharaoh was unable to soften it.
Au contraire. . .Romans 5 doesn’t say anything about God imputing Adam’s sin on anyone.
So, which is it. . .did they sin or not?“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men,
because all sinned for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression RESULTING in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
That is the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam.So then as through one transgression there RESULTED condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners,
That is the corresponding imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of Christ,even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” Romans 5:12-19 NASB1995
But all did not personally sin between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against,Death came to all BECAUSE ALL SINNED.
Precisely. . . the many were made sinners by the imputation of Adam's sin to them, just as many are made righteous by the imputation of Christ's righteousness to them (Ro 5:18-19).From the one, transgression RESULTED in condemnation. Through one man’s disobedience many were MADE SINNERS.
It is the answer to the question posed by the passage; i.e., of what sin did they all die between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against (Ro 5:13).There’s nothing that says anything about us being guilty or judged for Adam’s sin anywhere in this passage
That is precisely what it is presenting in Ro 5:12-16, what it is stating in Ro 5:17, and what it is paralleling in Ro 5:18-19.nor does it say anything about God imputing the guilt of Adam’s sin onto us. We inherited Adam’s sinful nature which is really just the result of free will.
The scriptures describe God’s character. They reveal to us who He is. I don’t understand why you would have a problem with the words that are used in scripture describing His character.Sez who? . . .who made that goofy rule?
God cannot be conscripted by goofy human rules.
Ok then if God’s actions define the words that are used in the scriptures to describe His character, like the words “just” for example, and God does condemn people to the lake of fire for failing to meet impossible expectations then one could logically conclude that if I were to handcuff someone to a cinder block and throw them into the ocean and tell them if you free yourself you can live then that would be just?God is the definition yes..
The following still remains unaddresed (post #116):The scriptures describe God’s character. They reveal to us who He is. I don’t understand why you would have a problem with the words that are used in scripture describing His character.
What you’re describing here isn’t Calvinism. In Calvinism no one can come to Christ unless The Father enables them. Which is based on John 6:44 which is an obsolete passage I might add because that drawing changed when Christ was crucified according to John 12:32.You're correct God gives us impossible expectations - but He met them for us, so, not so impossible after all, just impossible for us.
All God did was take the floor out from under you so you would have no choice but to cling to Him as your only hope of salvation.
Youre not understanding me at all. Im talking about the definition of the word JUST. Does the definition of the word JUST define God’s character or does God’s character define the word Just?The following still remains on the table:
God told Pharaoh to let his people go. . .and then God bound Pharaoh's heart in its own hardness (Ex 4:21) so that he was unable to obey.
Does man get to act in the same manner?
Where does this nonsense of man being allowed to act in the sovereign manner of God come from?
Let's first clear what remains on the table (post #116, #130).Youre not understanding me at all. Im talking about the definition of the word JUST. Does the definition of the word JUST define God’s character or does God’s character define the word Just?
In Exodus 3 God specifically tells Moses that He already knows that Pharaoh will not let the Israelites leave except under compulsion. Then He tells Moses that He’s going to inflict the 10 plagues upon Egypt then Pharaoh will let them go and the Egyptians will even willingly give them articles of treasure just to get rid of them.This is an instance of the free-will & determinism (or sovereignty of God) issue. Logically speaking, God can both be the determiner of the state of Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh the exerciser of free will in hardening his own heart. See the Free Will and Determinism postings.
Au contraire. . .
You don't understand Ro 5:17, nor Ro 5:18-19, nor Ro 5:14, where
the imputation of Adam's sin to those of Adam is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christs righteousness to those of Christ,
as presented in Ro 5:18-19.
The many were made sinners which is why they resulted in condemnation. Death came to all because all sinned. Notice that Paul DID NOT SAY DEATH CAME TO ALL BECAUSE ADAM SINNED. This is precisely why you refuse to accept the definition of the word JUST, because what you’re describing here IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF JUST. It is NOT JUST to punish people for something someone else did 6,000 years ago THAT THEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH NOR COULD THEY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.That is the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam.
What you’re describing here isn’t Calvinism. In Calvinism no one can come to Christ unless The Father enables them. Which is based on John 6:44 which is an obsolete passage I might add because that drawing changed when Christ was crucified according to John 12:32.
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
John 12:32 NASB1995
Anyone who “arrives in heaven” is going to do so because they know God is righteous and they believe his word.I just thought I’d take a poll on how many Christians would glorify God if they arrived in heaven only to find out that Calvinism is true and their children or their loved ones were thrown into the lake of fire because they weren’t arbitrarily chosen before creation?
Yes they sinned Paul specifically said death came to all because all sinned.So, which is it. . .did they sin or not?
Wrong you’re misquoting the passage. It doesn’t say that there was no law between Adam & Moses. It says until the law sin was in the world. God telling Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge was the first law which is when sin began.Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).
Where there is no law, there is no sin (Ro 5:13).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died (Ro 5:14).
Of what did they die when they had not personally sinned?
Again you keep on quoting Romans 5:17 and completely ignoring VERSE 12. NOWHERE DOES VERSE 17 SAY THAT THEY DIED BECAUSE ADAM’S SIN WAS IMPUTED ON THEM.They died of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17), which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being imputed to us in Ro 5:18-19.
Anyone who “arrives in heaven” is going to do so because they know God is righteous and they believe his word.
The unbelieving are not so;
Revelation 21:8 ASV
But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
Anyone who has loved ones that are going to the lake of fire is going with them, because light has no communion with darkness, 2 Corinthians 6.14 and those who are going to the lake of fire are going there because they are not of the light.
Those who are of the light cannot bear those who are evil.
Revelation 2:2 ASV
I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false;
Seeing it is the evil who are going to the lake of fire, if therefore you love them, you are going with them.
If you think God does things “arbitrarily”, you do not believe God‘s word.
Proverbs 16:4 RSV
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
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