Would you date a non-Christian?

[tonychanyt]

I wouldn't for efficiency reasons, 2 Corinthians 6:

14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Paul says that we should only marry believers.

I would date a woman only for the possibility of marriage. From an efficiency point of view, it is better to date someone who is already qualified for marriage. Doing otherwise requires more effort on my part. Dating a non-Christian is not a sin. It is just not efficient.

Marrying one, however, Exodus 34:

16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

Your non-believing partner may lead you away from God. That's the warning.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

If you define a 'date' to be a social one-on-one activity with a romantic connotation perse, then yes, it is unwise to 'date' a non-believer. However friendships in general can be broader; meeting up with a friend is not necessarily a 'date'.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

I don't recommend believers in general do this, but I now date women regardless of their stated faith. I do this because I still have a deep sense of alienation from other believers in the wake of my excommunication for getting a so-called "unscriptural divorce". (I maintained that I had reasonable grounds for my divorce and I stand by that.)

I refuse to stand for being treated like a second class citizen because of my divorce. Being a divorced man in many Church assemblies is a bit like being black in Mississippi circa 1950. Either they will have me as a brother with all the rights and privileges of other single believers (including marriage) or they will not have me at all.

There's a lot of false teaching in Church assemblies concerning divorce and remarriage these days. I will not accept permanent lifelong celibacy, yet some assemblies will hold that I am condemned to this fate. Until this changes, I feel like I have no choice but to open my dating pool to non-believers.

If you are reading this and are tempted to bark out Scriptures like 2 Cor 6:14, please check yourself. If you had to walk a mile in my boots, there's a very good chance you would do the same thing.

 

[tonychanyt]

I don't recommend believers in general do this, but I now date women regardless of their stated faith. I do this because I still have a deep sense of alienation from other believers in the wake of my excommunication for getting a so-called "unscriptural divorce". (I maintained that I had reasonable grounds for my divorce and I stand by that.)

I refuse to stand for being treated like a second class citizen because of my divorce. Being a divorced man in many Church assemblies is a bit like being black in Mississippi circa 1950. Either they will have me as a brother with all the rights and privileges of other single believers (including marriage) or they will not have me at all.

There's a lot of false teaching in Church assemblies concerning divorce and remarriage these days. I will not accept permanent lifelong celibacy, yet some assemblies will hold that I am condemned to this fate. Until this changes, I feel like I have no choice but to open my dating pool to non-believers.

If you are reading this and are tempted to bark out Scriptures like 2 Cor 6:14, please check yourself. If you had to walk a mile in my boots, there's a very good chance you would do the same thing.

Sorry to hear that. What about finding a church that is to your liking and finding a date there?

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Sorry to hear that. What about finding a church that is to your liking and finding a date there?

I have had trust issues with Christians in general because of the prejudice that I experienced.

 

[tonychanyt]

I have had trust issues with Christians in general because of the prejudice that I experienced.

Don't give up. Keep looking. You will find a church that you like.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Don't give up. Keep looking. You will find a church that you like.

It's not entirely up to me. When my trust is restored, then I will be ready to resume regular church attendance. I wish to provide every reasonable opportunity for this to happen.

I've been judged, condemned, etc because I refused to put up with mistreatment - not just with the divorce, but in other areas as well. So in short, my trust issues go far beyond what a few unethical church elders did.

Christians need to stop speaking of divorced people in derogatory terms, especially those who have either remarried or are seeking to. This sort of prejudice does not help our credibility to the unsaved and it reflects poorly upon God Himself.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not here to open any debate concerning the Marriage Permanence Doctrine. I reject that doctrine as unbiblical for reasons best discussed on another thread. You need not agree with me on that point.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

It's not entirely up to me. When my trust is restored, then I will be ready to resume regular church attendance. I wish to provide every reasonable opportunity for this to happen.

I've been judged, condemned, etc because I refused to put up with mistreatment - not just with the divorce, but in other areas as well. So in short, my trust issues go far beyond what a few unethical church elders did.

Christians need to stop speaking of divorced people in derogatory terms, especially those who have either remarried or are seeking to. This sort of prejudice does not help our credibility to the unsaved and it reflects poorly upon God Himself.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not here to open any debate concerning the Marriage Permanence Doctrine. I reject that doctrine as unbiblical for reasons best discussed on another thread. You need not agree with me on that point.

Although I understand the tough situation of feeling rejected and convicted by fellow believers, I still would advise against dating a non-believer as a future marriage or children would suffer from a non-believing wife or mother. 'Do not be unequally yoked' is wisdom here. To me it seems better to remain single/celibate than to be married to a non-believer and constantly experience tension for life-choices that will be heavily influenced by faith present or not.

I guess even in the USA there still would be plenty of Christian women willing to date a divorced man?

Regardless of whether your reason to seek divorce was just/scriptural or not; as far as I know in the Bible we only find limitations for divorced women (i.e. to stay single or be reconciled), but not for divorced men. That needs to be understood against the backdrop of the Torah where it was permissible for a man to be more than one wife, but not for a woman to have more than one husband.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Although I understand the tough situation of feeling rejected and convicted by fellow believers, I still would advise against dating a non-believer as a future marriage or children would suffer from a non-believing wife or mother. 'Do not be unequally yoked' is wisdom here. To me it seems better to remain single/celibate than to be married to a non-believer and constantly experience tension for life-choices that will be heavily influenced by faith present or not.

I guess even in the USA there still would be plenty of Christian women willing to date a divorced man?

Regardless of whether your reason to seek divorce was just/scriptural or not; as far as I know in the Bible we only find limitations for divorced women (i.e. to stay single or be reconciled), but not for divorced men. That needs to be understood against the backdrop of the Torah where it was permissible for a man to be more than one wife, but not for a woman to have more than one husband.

The problem I see with American churches these days:

(1) The serious lack of meaningful fellowship with other saints. Most assemblies are such that you have some coffee, sing songs, listen to some guy talk for an hour, then you go home. Every now and then they might have a potluck. This so does not work for me!

(2) If it isn't a problem with fellowship, then I would have to worry about whether I would be treated as a second class citizen because of my divorce. Or if I would be "permitted" to marry again. I was adamant from the start that I would recognize no doctrine that claims I must now become a eunuch. Any church assembly that preaches this doctrine will not receive the time of day from me.

Regarding marriage, I can understand why some people would prefer singleness / celibacy, and that's fine. But celibacy and I just don't get along. Getting married again is practically a necessity for me - the alternative to that would most likely involve sleeping with women I'm not married to. And last I checked, that kind of thing was frowned upon.

 

[Bobber]

I am married have been for 45 years...happily too.

But if not married would I date a non Christian lady?

Nope. But I'll go further than that. I wouldn't date even a person who says they are a Christians AND that they go to chruch. I want to know do they pray? Do they have fellowship with the Lord on a daily basis? Some are merely religious. They check off the box of church going once a week. They say grace for meals. The rest of the time it all might just be secular stuff of worldly activity with no passion for God and his word. In other words you don't want someone who has a form of godliness but no power or life of God flowing through them. You want someone who is hot for God.

 

[Bobber]

I don't recommend believers in general do this, but I now date women regardless of their stated faith.

Wasn't that Samson's position as well? Of course you can tell me to jump in the lake but the question still remains.....is that not what Samson decided to do and how did that work out?

I do this because I still have a deep sense of alienation from other believers in the wake of my excommunication for getting a so-called "unscriptural divorce".

Of course none of us know if it was unscriptural or not. You don't say why nor should you feel you have to on here I get that. But I get the feel from you that you're opposed to any reason being called unscriptural.

There's a lot of false teaching in Church assemblies concerning divorce and remarriage these days.

False teaching though can go extreme one way or the other.

I will not accept permanent lifelong celibacy, yet some assemblies will hold that I am condemned to this fate. Until this changes, I feel like I have no choice but to open my dating pool to non-believers.

Oh I see. So you willingly choose to turn the steering wheel of your life down a direction and road YOU KNOW God doesn't want you to go down. You have the freedom of will to go ahead though but you should consider the only reason God says not to be unequally yoked is for YOUR BENEFIT not his. You sound like a person that has been hurt and you're feeling pain I get that.

If there comes a time in your life though where you really wanted to become zealous and strong for God just know though.....your non-believing connection could end up becoming like a wet blanket in regard to anything you're excited about. It would be kind of like a dream where you're trying to get somewhere but there's this continually drag trying to keep you lukewarm . Hope you don't experience this but your choice.

If you are reading this and are tempted to bark out Scriptures like 2 Cor 6:14, please check yourself. If you had to walk a mile in my boots, there's a very good chance you would do the same thing.

And what you've experienced and what I've experienced has nothing to do with it. The question is what has God said about all things of life.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Of course none of us know if it was unscriptural or not. You don't say why nor should you feel you have to on here I get that. But I get the feel from you that you're opposed to any reason being called unscriptural.

The reason I have a problem with the label "scriptural" or "unscriptural" is that it implies that only the grounds that are explicitly mentioned in Scripture are valid. It's an argument from silence.

I'm not going to say any reason is a good one. There is such a thing as a selfish or frivolous reason. In other words, I would offer no defense for a man who would divorce Jessica just so he can run off with Rachel. That kind of thing is cruel and dishonorable - the kind of thing Jesus rightly condemned as tantamount to adultery.

However, a man who divorces his abusive, drug-addicted wife after her third arrest for shoplifting - then marries a better woman five years later is nowhere near adultery. It bites my hiney to hear Christians refuse to recognize any distinction between that man, and the one who dumped Jessica to be with Rachel. Even atheists have enough moral sense to see that!

 

[Bobber]

The reason I have a problem with the label "scriptural" or "unscriptural" is that it implies that only the grounds that are explicitly mentioned in Scripture are valid. It's an argument from silence.

But wouldn't the silence argument not apply for Jesus said it's adultery except for this reason or that?

In other words, I would offer no defense for a man who would divorce Jessica just so he can run off with Rachel. That kind of thing is cruel and dishonorable - the kind of thing Jesus rightly condemned as tantamount to adultery.

So you would say in a case like that church leaders would be right to do what happened to you? I'm at least trying to get you to a place where you see leaders are at least TRYING to do what's right regardless as the whether they're labelled insensitive or not.

However, a man who divorces his abusive, drug-addicted wife after her third arrest for shoplifting - then marries a better woman five years later is nowhere near adultery.

I'm hearing you and something I have to give thought of. I'll give you another case. True story. I recall it 50 years ago. A very beautiful young Christian girl got a crush on a guy coming to a church. He was a handsome guy and they started dating. He even became a drummer in the music team. Very soon they got married. Wasn't three weeks or so after marriage out came the booze and he stopped going to church. Apparently he just went to church to find a good Christian girl.

Well he became abusive as well and the whole thing became a mess. The poor young girl was heartbroken and the marriage fell apart and she left him. So Question.....A dear sweet girl only about 19 or 20....So that young girl is never to marry again? Never be able to be happy, or have a family? Are we to believe is God's will? Something about this to me says YES she should be able to give marriage another go at least that's what I feel in my spirit.

It bites my hiney to hear Christians refuse to recognize any distinction between that man, and the one who dumped Jessica to be with Rachel. Even atheists have enough moral sense to see that!

I've got to get into studying the divorce remarriage thing more in depth. In my church now only a couple of hundred we have two couples having marriage fall outs. What should I think about the whole subject? Have to do more study. I see one Mike Winger many on youtube likes his Bible teachings. He has a three hour teaching where he says he gets into all of it. Might watch it to seek to get maybe a fuller perspective.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

As for my own divorce, I was adamant that I had just grounds. Throughout the process, I treated divorce as a remedy of last resort. After six weeks of marital counseling, it was plainly clear to everyone that the marriage was too far gone to save.

But wouldn't the silence argument not apply for Jesus said it's adultery except for this reason or that?

The reason that fails is because it would lead to a position that is clearly contrary to the heart of God. The Argument from Silence would have us believe that only sexual immorality and (maybe) abandonment by a non-believing spouse are valid reasons for divorce. By that logic, domestic violence, gambling away the next three mortgage payments, drug use, refusing marital intimacy, or attempted murder would not be considered valid grounds for divorce.

And what if you were abandoned by someone who claims to be a believer?

So you would say in a case like that church leaders would be right to do what happened to you? I'm at least trying to get you to a place where you see leaders are at least TRYING to do what's right regardless as the whether they're labelled insensitive or not.

Any why, pray tell, do you assume that the Church elders acted in good faith in my case? If they were the least bit ethical, they would have at least been honest with me regarding their own policies. This is how I dealt with the matter when my then-wife and I were in Counseling (paraphrased):

"My wife and I have entered into marital counseling. My desire is to pursue Plan A, which is to bring the marriage to a place where we can move forward. I'm not looking for some justification to get a divorce - I already have that. Instead, I am seeking a way to make divorce unnecessary.

"Now I do need to mention Plan B as it has implications concerning my relationship with this assembly. In the event Plan A is impossible, then Plan B is to dissolve the marriage and for me to begin dating and eventually marry a replacement. I don't like Plan B - it exists only as a remedy of last resort. Some church assemblies would hold that I would have to either continue to put up with her treatment of me, or to be celibate for the rest of my life. I absolutely refuse to do either of these. I will recognize no doctrine that claims I have to put up with either one of them.

"Please let me know if my position on this matter would render me unsuitable for continued association with this assembly."

When I asked this, two elders separately falsely assured me that this would not be an issue. When they brought me under disciplinary action, I asked both of them why they misrepresented their position. Both were evasive and would not give me a straight answer. I refused to back down even under threat of excommunication. They lost all credibility with me.

I'm hearing you and something I have to give thought of. I'll give you another case. True story. I recall it 50 years ago. A very beautiful young Christian girl got a crush on a guy coming to a church. He was a handsome guy and they started dating. He even became a drummer in the music team. Very soon they got married. Wasn't three weeks or so after marriage out came the booze and he stopped going to church. Apparently he just went to church to find a good Christian girl.

Well he became abusive as well and the whole thing became a mess. The poor young girl was heartbroken and the marriage fell apart and she left him. So Question.....A dear sweet girl only about 19 or 20....So that young girl is never to marry again? Never be able to be happy, or have a family? Are we to believe is God's will? Something about this to me says YES she should be able to give marriage another go at least that's what I feel in my spirit.

She married him under false pretenses, and when the mask came off, she took appropriate action. It would be preposterous to claim that she is somehow condemned to celibacy for the rest of her life simply because she had to take such action.

In just about every other agreement, an element of fraud would allow the defrauded party to wind down the agreement. What makes a person think marriage would be any different?

I've got to get into studying the divorce remarriage thing more in depth. In my church now only a couple of hundred we have two couples having marriage fall outs. What should I think about the whole subject? Have to do more study. I see one Mike Winger many on youtube likes his Bible teachings. He has a three hour teaching where he says he gets into all of it. Might watch it to seek to get maybe a fuller perspective.

I can understand if many people find the whole thing distasteful. People who have been happily married for 40 or so years might not have had to give it much thought - and they might think that some counseling or whatever would solve the issue. I wasn't so fortunate.

If my wife no longer wants to be married to me, there's not really much I can do other than to dissolve the marriage. I detested being condemned and judged for doing something I really had no choice but to do. I exhausted all other reasonable remedies.

I was so incensed by this treatment that I came very close to saying I will never again associate with Christians in general! But I couldn't quite go that far. Real life is not the Land of Rainbows and Unicorns.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Here's the TLDR version of my story with respect to how the elders dealt with me:

While I was in marital counseling with my then-wife, I told them what I would do in the event the marriage proved unsalvageable. Then I asked them if that would be a problem with my standing with this assembly. In other words, should I look for a new place of worship? They lied to me by claiming it would not, only to renege on that upon my informing them that we were dissolving the marriage.

Based on this, and other condemnations I received from others, I have had trust issues with Christians ever since.

 

[Bobber]

The Argument from Silence would have us believe that only sexual immorality and (maybe) abandonment by a non-believing spouse are valid reasons for divorce. By that logic, domestic violence, gambling away the next three mortgage payments, drug use, refusing marital intimacy, or attempted murder would not be considered valid grounds for divorce.

OK here's something I think you might like to read. I'd think I'd have to agree with it. See below,

Divorcing an Abusive Spouse Is Not a Sin

Not only is it morally justified, it also aligns with Christ’s heart for the vulnerable.

www.christianitytoday.com

While God has called us to pursue peace and reconciliation with all people, Paul wrote that in the case of a spouse who walked away, abandoning the marriage, the remaining spouse should “let it be so” and not consider himself or herself “bound,” strongly implying the freedom to remarry.

An abusive spouse, in fact, has abandoned the marriage. Abuse is much worse than abandonment, involving the use of something holy (marriage) for satanic ends. Abuse of a spouse or a child is exactly what God condemns everywhere in the Bible—the leveraging of power to hurt the vulnerable (Ps. 9:18; Isa. 3:14–15; Ezek. 18:12; Amos 2:7; Mark 9:42; etc.). While abuse is worse than abandonment, it is no less than abandonment.

If one spouse abandons the home, the Bible reveals, it is not the fault of the innocent party. And if a spouse makes the home a dangerous place for the other spouse (or their children), that is not the fault of the innocent party either. In those cases, divorce is not a sin but is, first of all, a recognition of what is already the case—that the one-flesh union covenant is dissolved—and the abused spouse should feel no condemnation at all in divorcing.

"Please let me know if my position on this matter would render me unsuitable for continued association with this assembly."

When I asked this, two elders separately falsely assured me that this would not be an issue. When they brought me under disciplinary action, I asked both of them why they misrepresented their position. Both were evasive and would not give me a straight answer.

What I think they probably hadn't thought things through when they first talked to you. Later they probably had a private meeting talking about it and came to a different conclusion. Not saying their conclusion was right but that's probably what happened.

 

[Bobber]

If my wife no longer wants to be married to me, there's not really much I can do other than to dissolve the marriage. I detested being condemned and judged for doing something I really had no choice but to do. I exhausted all other reasonable remedies.

Zeph not sure you'd like to but Mike Winger has a good Bible teaching on the subject....it's 3 hours long but if you go to 1 hr 50 mintues in there's some thoughts you might agree with to encourage you.

 

[Bobber]

I was so incensed by this treatment that I came very close to saying I will never again associate with Christians in general! But I couldn't quite go that far. Real life is not the Land of Rainbows and Unicorns.

No you shouldn't. Here's what I'd do. You claim you feel there is allowances by God that he would back your decisions or the way you think. I'd take things out of your denominational setting and study out what all theologians from different sources have to say about this subject. Let them make their cases from the scripture until your heart is convinced that you truly feel you DO have such allowance. I tend to think that you do but that doesn't mean anything. And hear from God. He most definitely will speak to you on things you're not sure about. May God's Peace Be Yours

 

[ZephBonkerer]

No you shouldn't. Here's what I'd do. You claim you feel there is allowances by God that he would back your decisions or the way you think. I'd take things out of your denominational setting and study out what all theologians from different sources have to say about this subject. Let them make their cases from the scripture until your heart is convinced that you truly feel you DO have such allowance...

I actually did this during my time of marital counseling. During this time, I was looking for any direction I could find to make the marriage viable. I didn't need an excuse or justification to get a divorce as I already had one.

About six weeks in, I saw the writing on the wall. There was no direction to make the marriage work. I took a Sunday drive to Indianapolis (about two hours away) to bring the matter to the Lord. His answer to me: just let it go. I did everything I reasonably could. What happens at this point happens.

A few days later, she made it known that she wanted to wind down the marriage. This time I was prepared for it.

I understand that you do not desire to attribute the actions of the Church elders to any kind of bad faith. While I don't blame you for this, I can come to no other conclusion for these reasons:

(1) Their lack of transparency regarding their about-face. If they had any new information that changed their position, why not just say so? If they felt they were in error in their earlier advice, why not just say so? I had reason to believe they were lying, and I have them myriad opportunities to explain. I took their persistent refusal to be effectively a plea of no contest to my charge of dishonesty.

(2) At no point did they take my concerns seriously. When I told them I would not stand for being forced into permanent celibacy, they ridiculed me with statements like "nobody ever does from a lack of sex". I told them I see no reason to risk becoming the first. I don't do celibacy, and that is that.

(3) When I met with the elder during their Matthew 18 process, he conducted the affair like a Star Chamber inquisition. I knew what he was trying to do, so I shot it down every time. I told him that while I don't claim to be without sin, I decline to enter a plea to these charges without my lawyer present. Yes, I actually said that!

(4) The heart of the matter was not that I denied the actions that led to my excommunication. It was that I refused to recognize these actions as sin. There is no sin in getting a divorce for serious reasons, nor is there any sin in marrying again after such a divorce. That was my position then, and I stand by that position. I was adamant in that. For this, I was accused of "denying the clear teaching of Christ". These words not only slandered me to my face, but blasphemed the Lord.

 

[Bobber]

About six weeks in, I saw the writing on the wall. There was no direction to make the marriage work. I took a Sunday drive to Indianapolis (about two hours away) to bring the matter to the Lord. His answer to me: just let it go. I did everything I reasonably could. What happens at this point happens.

A few days later, she made it known that she wanted to wind down the marriage. This time I was prepared for it.

I see. To have someone say they want the marriage to end in and of itself is a devastating thing to hear for one. Just to hear a dear brother in the Lord heard that from their spouse should make a fellow believer weep with one which is weeping and not to make light of them. , So the question is how long should one continually endure a non peaceful situation. I can't say I understand the right and wrong of everything on how you handled it or didn't. You did say you felt the Lord gave you your answer and if that's truly how you feel you should stay with that I would think.

(1) Their lack of transparency regarding their about-face. If they had any new information that changed their position, why not just say so? If they felt they were in error in their earlier advice, why not just say so? I had reason to believe they were lying, and I have them myriad opportunities to explain.

And you mentioned some other things about these brethren . Here's what I'd like to say. I'd like to see you healed on the inside. This has help me. Remember Jesus giving the King Story. Matt 18:27 One who had a great debt and the Lord forgave him for it. He went to his fellow servants the sinned against him....(or owed him a debt) And you know what happened. He didn't forgive and let it go so you know what the Lord says of that one. He was to forgive AS the Lord forgave him.

You know Zeph even recently someone has caused me great hurt and pain.....and the Lord reminded me about the King Story. The Lord said to me,

Yes Bob what they said was horrible, unkind and unjust and I agree with you they acted like a jerk. The issue here though is you've made big mistakes, or sinned or missed it in your life at times too......So remember...I forgave you.....you forgive them and even seek if possible to do good to them, yes bless the ones who have cursed you. Say a prayer or pray for them too.

But there's something better too.....for us obeying Jesus in the LOVE walk he considers that as service to him.....and great shall be our rewards. Matt 5:12 My point. Yes these church members or fellow believers may have done you wrong. The Lord might even agree with that. Try not to think of them as not being dearly beloved brothers though. Remember Joseph in the OT and his brothers threw him into a pit. He forgave his brothers. Wasn't easy but he did.

Consider that they may have sincerely from their heart felt they were doing the right thing. Perhaps you can have an opinion good men can have a different opinion still holding out by faith that they are good men. I get it everything in your mind might tell you they're not. But you're doing this by faith. Gravitating towards this way of thinking of feeling mercy towards them instead of judgement takes the poisen of pain and hurt out of your heart......you're keeping yourself in the LOVE of God. You might be surprised to find out maybe a few years ahead they might not be so rigid on certain issues and perhaps feel remorse for what they did.

These words not only slandered me to my face, but blasphemed the Lord.

And so I'd encourage you to embrace with all tenacity the way of thinking the Jesus had and Stephen had when being stoned or put on the cross......"Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing. And lay not this sin to their charge." It's not easy maybe to do this Zeph but it unravels from your own spirit the grief. God has called us to peace.