Would a Lutheran Object?

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Would a Lutheran object to this view of salvation?

Salvation is justification and sanctification in Orthodoxy. This is because salvation is Theosis, an eternal and real union with God. And so, there is real righteousness in justification because there is really the presence of God. Hence, this righteousness is there the moment one believes, it is there years later, it exists as long as faith and good works exists, though it may exist where there are no good works because the time did not exist yet to do them. In short, it exists when God indwells the Christian, which is by grace, through faith, and not of works as a perquisite. However, the subsequent good works that flow from this indwelling are done by God's grace/energies and are a manifestation of the indwelling of God, co-operating with His operating, and thereby are justifying because justice merely = God's presence/grace..

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Most Protestants want sanctification on the back end of salvation, otherwise it is "earning your salvation" but we will see what folks actually say.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Would a Lutheran object to this view of salvation?

Salvation is justification and sanctification in Orthodoxy. This is because salvation is Theosis, an eternal and real union with God. And so, there is real righteousness in justification because there is really the presence of God. Hence, this righteousness is there the moment one believes, it is there years later, it exists as long as faith and good works exists, though it may exist where there are no good works because the time did not exist yet to do them. In short, it exists when God indwells the Christian, which is by grace, through faith, and not of works as a perquisite. However, the subsequent good works that flow from this indwelling are done by God's grace/energies and are a manifestation of the indwelling of God, co-operating with His operating, and thereby are justifying because justice merely = God's presence/grace..

It's a mixture of yes, depends, sort of, not really, no, and maybe.

The statement "there is real righteousness in justification" would need serious clarification. Specifically, whose righteousness is it? If the answer is that it is Christ's righteousness, and it is real and mine (as a gift), then yes, there is real righteousness in justification. What is not found in justification is our own righteousness, what we do does not justify us. Thus the only righteousness which justifies me before God is the alien, external, righteousness of Jesus Christ which is appropriated and imputed to me as pure grace--a free and generous gift from God alone.

"it exists years later as long as faith and good works exist" is troubling because there is no proper distinction between righteousness Coram Deo and righteousness Coram Mundus; righteousness before God and righteousness before the world. The righteousness which justifies us, being Christ's own righteousness and not of ourselves, is the righteousness we have before God, this is the righteousness which is through faith. Thus the Christian is justified at all times before God on the basis of Christ's righteousness which we have received as grace, through faith. Therefore it is through faith alone that we are justified before God.

However we are called and commanded to show our righteousness before the world, to do our good works for which we were created in Christ Jesus. This is righteousness Coram Mundus, righteousness before the world. This righteousness is not for my justification, but for my neighbor's benefit. God does not need my good works, but my neighbor most certainly does. Thus a good work is only a work which benefits my neighbor; a work rendered "to God" that does not chiefly concern with benefiting our neighbor is not a good work at all.

Thus the Christian operates by faith and love. Faith in Christ, and love in our neighbor.

Theosis, therefore, consists in our union to God in Christ by which we are being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ; a reality that is currently underway by the power and work of the Spirit through sanctification. But which will not be accomplished and perfect until the resurrection on the Last Day. In this life we are always going to be simul iustus et peccator, saint and sinner. Thus this life is a cross, this is not the place where glory is found, this is the place where we carry our crosses as disciples of Jesus. And as disciples being called outward, in love, to our neighbor; and God toward us, in Christ, through faith. Trusting and being confident that the work began in us shall continue, even until that Last and Final Day when Christ returns in glory and eternal kingdom.

Grace therefore gives what could not be acquired, and through the power of God's grace and Spirit continues to operate in our lives, granting us faith, sustaining our faith. God draws us outward, to neighbor; and He supplies us with all that is necessary to love others; but we do not do it perfectly, nor can we--we continue to sin. Thus we must always remain repentant, drowning the old Adam; confessing our sins, and trusting in Jesus Christ our Lord, in that grace which called us and keeps us.

Yes, the Spirit is active, and we receive grace upon grace upon grace from God daily; grace freely given to us in His Word and in His Sacraments, feeding us and nourishing us and sustaining us in faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

It's a mixture of yes, depends, sort of, not really, no, and maybe.

The statement "there is real righteousness in justification" would need serious clarification. Specifically, whose righteousness is it? If the answer is that it is Christ's righteousness, and it is real and mine (as a gift), then yes, there is real righteousness in justification. What is not found in justification is our own righteousness, what we do does not justify us. Thus the only righteousness which justifies me before God is the alien, external, righteousness of Jesus Christ which is appropriated and imputed to me as pure grace--a free and generous gift from God alone.

"it exists years later as long as faith and good works exist" is troubling because there is no proper distinction between righteousness Coram Deo and righteousness Coram Mundus; righteousness before God and righteousness before the world. The righteousness which justifies us, being Christ's own righteousness and not of ourselves, is the righteousness we have before God, this is the righteousness which is through faith. Thus the Christian is justified at all times before God on the basis of Christ's righteousness which we have received as grace, through faith. Therefore it is through faith alone that we are justified before God.

The righteousness of Christ indwells us unto justification?

However we are called and commanded to show our righteousness before the world, to do our good works for which we were created in Christ Jesus. This is righteousness Coram Mundus, righteousness before the world. This righteousness is not for my justification, but for my neighbor's benefit. God does not need my good works, but my neighbor most certainly does. Thus a good work is only a work which benefits my neighbor; a work rendered "to God" that does not chiefly concern with benefiting our neighbor is not a good work at all.

God does not need our faith either. So why is faith directed toward God but, for example love or humility is not?

Thus the Christian operates by faith and love. Faith in Christ, and love in our neighbor.

I don't understand. We love Christ both directly and in our neighbor. How is this not justification, since it is directed toward and lays a hold of the person of Christ?

Theosis, therefore, consists in our union to God in Christ by which we are being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ; a reality that is currently underway by the power and work of the Spirit through sanctification. But which will not be accomplished and perfect until the resurrection on the Last Day. In this life we are always going to be simul iustus et peccator, saint and sinner. Thus this life is a cross, this is not the place where glory is found, this is the place where we carry our crosses as disciples of Jesus. And as disciples being called outward, in love, to our neighbor; and God toward us, in Christ, through faith. Trusting and being confident that the work began in us shall continue, even until that Last and Final Day when Christ returns in glory and eternal kingdom.

Personal sanctification seems like it would preceed personal justification. I'm not referring to the declarative aspect but to the acquisition of it. Because faith is my response, created in me by God.

Grace therefore gives what could not be acquired, and through the power of God's grace and Spirit continues to operate in our lives, granting us faith, sustaining our faith. God draws us outward, to neighbor; and He supplies us with all that is necessary to love others; but we do not do it perfectly, nor can we--we continue to sin. Thus we must always remain repentant, drowning the old Adam; confessing our sins, and trusting in Jesus Christ our Lord, in that grace which called us and keeps us.

Yes, the Spirit is active, and we receive grace upon grace upon grace from God daily; grace freely given to us in His Word and in His Sacraments, feeding us and nourishing us and sustaining us in faith.

-CryptoLutheran

He supplies us with faith too though?

 

[Daniel9v9]

While it's possible to use similar language, on the whole, I'd have to say no. To explain it simply: Our salvation is not some thing or quality inside of us, but an objective reality outside of us — namely, our Lord Jesus Christ, His salvific work, and us being declared righteous before God — and this is received through faith, that is, trust, in God's promise of forgiveness of sins and life, and His gift of Holy Baptism to us.

Sanctification follows Justification. It does not precede, complete, aid, nor sustain Justification. Now, God certainly dwells in us. He gives us the gift of His Holy Spirit, and it is He who produces good fruit in us; it is He who sanctifies us. So, by the grace of God and the Holy Spirit working in us, we do start to love God and our neighbour, and we do begin to love and uphold the Law, and live in daily repentance.

To repeat what I wrote in a different post, the best summary of salvation in correlation to good works, or Justification and Sanctification, is Ephesians 2: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Emphasis on this: We are created in Christ (Justification) for good works (Sanctification). Justification means salvation (not in part, but complete), and Sanctification means being (gradually) moulded into the image of Christ.

If you're interested, I can recommend reading the Epitome (Formula of Concord), which is a very precise confession of faith. Article I: Original Sin to Article VI: The Third Use of the Law should be quite helpful.
The Formula of Concord: Epitome | Book of Concord

Blessings! +

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

While it's possible to use similar language, on the whole, I'd have to say no. To explain it simply: Our salvation is not some thing or quality inside of us, but an objective reality outside of us — namely, our Lord Jesus Christ, His salvific work, and us being declared righteous before God — and this is received through faith, that is, trust, in God's promise of forgiveness of sins and life, and His gift of Holy Baptism to us.

Trust is a product of grace. Our fallen or natural will cannot produce trust. It comes solely from God. Even if Trust is viewed as passive (ie, not meritorious), it is still the necessary hand which lays hold of Christ. It is my hand; I believe. So faith is not something outside of me, although the content of that faith is. It follows therefore, that faith is the result of Sanctification, or being made right. Further, the Confessions say that justification is regeneration. Regeneration is also something that happens to us. I agree that God must make the first move. The Sacraments afterall, aren't our work but Christ's. The grace of the Sacraments must be received however. I mean, literally. We walk up to the font or the altar and partake of what God gives us.

Sanctification follows Justification. It does not precede, complete, aid, nor sustain Justification. Now, God certainly dwells in us. He gives us the gift of His Holy Spirit, and it is He who produces good fruit in us; it is He who sanctifies us. So, by the grace of God and the Holy Spirit working in us, we do start to love God and our neighbour, and we do begin to love and uphold the Law, and live in daily repentance.

To repeat what I wrote in a different post, the best summary of salvation in correlation to good works, or Justification and Sanctification, is Ephesians 2: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Emphasis on this: We are created in Christ (Justification) for good works (Sanctification). Justification means salvation (not in part, but complete), and Sanctification means being (gradually) moulded into the image of Christ.

If you're interested, I can recommend reading the Epitome (Formula of Concord), which is a very precise confession of faith. Article I: Original Sin to Article VI: The Third Use of the Law should be quite helpful.
The Formula of Concord: Epitome | Book of Concord

Blessings! +

It seems to me that for Lutherans, the importance of keeping justification and sanctification separate, is because we are afraid to approach God as anything other than 'poor miserable sinners'. If we claim anything, such as humility or love, we are being self-righteous and God is hostile to us based upon our law breaking. Christ then is put in our place to satisfy the demands of the Law and to make God propitious. Justification is less about us and more about God's attitude toward us, as we are not changed. God's disposition is the thing which needs changing and is changed.
But doesn't the Bible say that Christ came because God loves us? And, that the Lord will not cast off forever?

 

[Daniel9v9]

Trust is a product of grace. Our fallen or natural will cannot produce trust. It comes solely from God. Even if Trust is viewed as passive (ie, not meritorious), it is still the necessary hand which lays hold of Christ. It is my hand; I believe. So faith is not something outside of me, although the content of that faith is. It follows therefore, that faith is the result of Sanctification, or being made right. Further, the Confessions say that justification is regeneration. Regeneration is also something that happens to us. I agree that God must make the first move. The Sacraments afterall, aren't our work but Christ's. The grace of the Sacraments must be received however. I mean, literally. We walk up to the font or the altar and partake of what God gives us.

Sorry, I think you misunderstand. Faith is not outside of us. Faith is a gift given to us through the Word. Salvation is a gift, and faith that apprehends God's promise is a gift. Salvation, then, from beginning to end is by God's grace.

Consider the langue of the Scriptures that we are by nature dead in sin and children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3). A dead person cannot work, will, or wish himself to life. Or think of the Biblical image of being born again or born from above (John 3:3) — just as natural birth is a gift, so too is spiritual birth. Faith is not the instrument of conversion, but the object of conversion. St. Augustine famously said something to the effect that "God makes willing out of the unwilling."

What's outside of us is the declaration that we are saved. It's the Gospel, which is then received by faith, which is a gift from God. So, when we talk about salvation, we confess Jesus, whose name is literally "YHWH saves".

It seems to me that for Lutherans, the importance of keeping justification and sanctification separate, is because we are afraid to approach God as anything other than 'poor miserable sinners'. If we claim anything, such as humility or love, we are being self-righteous and God is hostile to us based upon our law breaking. Christ then is put in our place to satisfy the demands of the Law and to make God propitious. Justification is less about us and more about God's attitude toward us, as we are not changed. God's disposition is the thing which needs changing and is changed.
But doesn't the Bible say that Christ came because God loves us? And, that the Lord will not cast off forever?

We don't divorce Justification and Sanctification — that would be a caricature of Lutheran theology, but we uphold their distinction without confusing them. We certainly can and do use the language of being pious and emphasise loving God by loving our neighbour. For a good Lutheran devotional on piety, I can recommend True Christianity by Johann Arndt, for example. It's in the public domain and you can find it online. You can skim through it here, for example: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34736/34736-pdf.pdf

But I think it's good to appreciate that the Bible talks about righteousness in two ways: one before man, and another before God. Before God, no one is righteous according to their own works. Christ is our righteousness. Before man, however, we can be righteous. The Holy Spirit produces good and God-pleasing fruit in us of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control; love for God and love for our neighbour.

I think if you want to appreciate the Lutheran framework, I can make a few recommendations (all free).

Compend of Lutheran Theology by Hutter — This is a wonderful and easy to comprehend Dogmatics in questions and answers format.
Link: https://goodshepherdrogers.org/files/compendoflutheranhutt.pdf

Outlines of Doctrinal Theology by Greabner — This is a terrific and concise index of Scripture.
Link: https://www.wolfmueller.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ODTluluprintreadyFeb2018.pdf

And again, the Epitome — It's just a fantastic and incredibly rich confession.
Link: https://bookofconcord.org/formula-of-concord-epitome/

The peace of Christ to you! +

 

[Daniel9v9]

(Deleted double post)

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Jesus died for everyone. If the declaration of salvation is my salvation, then why aren't all saved?

Thank you for the links.

Sorry, I think you misunderstand. Faith is not outside of us. Faith is a gift given to us through the Word. Salvation is a gift, and faith that apprehends God's promise is a gift. Salvation, then, from beginning to end is by God's grace.

Consider the langue of the Scriptures that we are by nature dead in sin and children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3). A dead person cannot work, will, or wish himself to life. Or think of the Biblical image of being born again or born from above (John 3:3) — just as natural birth is a gift, so too is spiritual birth. Faith is not the instrument of conversion, but the object of conversion. St. Augustine famously said something to the effect that "God makes willing out of the unwilling."

What's outside of us is the declaration that we are saved. It's the Gospel, which is then received by faith, which is a gift from God. So, when we talk about salvation, we confess Jesus, whose name is literally "YHWH saves".




We don't divorce Justification and Sanctification — that would be a caricature of Lutheran theology, but we uphold their distinction without confusing them. We certainly can and do use the language of being pious and emphasise loving God by loving our neighbour. For a good Lutheran devotional on piety, I can recommend True Christianity by Johann Arndt, for example. It's in the public domain and you can find it online. You can skim through it here, for example: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34736/34736-pdf.pdf

But I think it's good to appreciate that the Bible talks about righteousness in two ways: one before man, and another before God. Before God, no one is righteous according to their own works. Christ is our righteousness. Before man, however, we can be righteous. The Holy Spirit produces good and God-pleasing fruit in us of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control; love for God and love for our neighbour.

I think if you want to appreciate the Lutheran framework, I can make a few recommendations (all free).

Compend of Lutheran Theology by Hutter — This is a wonderful and easy to comprehend Dogmatics in questions and answers format.
Link: https://goodshepherdrogers.org/files/compendoflutheranhutt.pdf

Outlines of Doctrinal Theology by Greabner — This is a terrific and concise index of Scripture.
Link: https://www.wolfmueller.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ODTluluprintreadyFeb2018.pdf

And again, the Epitome — It's just a fantastic and incredibly rich confession.
Link: The Formula of Concord: Epitome | Book of Concord

The peace of Christ to you! +

 

[Daniel9v9]

Jesus died for everyone. If the declaration of salvation is my salvation, then why aren't all saved?

Thank you for the links.

The answer to that is a holy mystery.

To back up a bit, God's Word contains many holy mysteries. Particularly, the Trinity, and the incarnation of Christ. For example, regarding the incarnation, how can what's infinite be contained in that which is finite? It goes against all reason, yet, that is what we believe, teach, and confess (cf. Colossians 2:9). Not out of blind faith, but out of humility, recognising that God is above natural law, and reason; what seems impossible to us, is not impossible to God.

But holy mysteries are not only about God, but also His works (cf. Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11:34): His miracles and divine intervention, Holy Baptism, and the Eucharist. And also, salvation. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation, from beginning to end, is from God. But that damnation, from beginning to end, is from man. This is not a contradiction, but a paradox. The two truths need to stand together and one should not overwrite the other. It's a holy mystery. So, just as Jesus Himself is a holy mystery, by extension, so is His holy work.

I can recommend reading the article of Election in the Epitome here: XI. Election | Book of Concord

Maybe I can add to this that I didn't grow up Lutheran, but one of the things that won me over to it and drew me into ministry is the Lutheran humble embrace of holy mysteries. And that's something we have in common with our friends the Eastern Orthodox. That is, we don't agree on everything, but holy mysteries are very central to both theological frameworks.

Blessings! +

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

The answer to that is a holy mystery.

To back up a bit, God's Word contains many holy mysteries. Particularly, the Trinity, and the incarnation of Christ. For example, regarding the incarnation, how can what's infinite be contained in that which is finite? It goes against all reason, yet, that is what we believe, teach, and confess (cf. Colossians 2:9). Not out of blind faith, but out of humility, recognising that God is above natural law, and reason; what seems impossible to us, is not impossible to God.

But holy mysteries are not only about God, but also His works (cf. Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11:34): His miracles and divine intervention, Holy Baptism, and the Eucharist. And also, salvation. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation, from beginning to end, is from God. But that damnation, from beginning to end, is from man. This is not a contradiction, but a paradox. The two truths need to stand together and one should not overwrite the other. It's a holy mystery. So, just as Jesus Himself is a holy mystery, by extension, so is His holy work.

I can recommend reading the article of Election in the Epitome here: XI. Election | Book of Concord

Maybe I can add to this that I didn't grow up Lutheran, but one of the things that won me over to it and drew me into ministry is the Lutheran humble embrace of holy mysteries. And that's something we have in common with our friends the Eastern Orthodox. That is, we don't agree on everything, but holy mysteries are very central to both theological frameworks.

Blessings! +

Would the difference lie in our choice?
We are dead in sin.
The proclamation is sent out 'Awake O sleeper. Rise from the dead. Christ will shine on you!' to the whole world, to everyone. Those who enter into the Church, partake of the Sacraments, ect are being saved. Those who sleep in on Sunday morning, never avail themselves of the Sacraments, aren't.

We have freewill to participate in the life of the Church.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I'm reading the links now.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Would the difference lie in our choice?
We are dead in sin.
The proclamation is sent out 'Awake O sleeper. Rise from the dead. Christ will shine on you!' to the whole world, to everyone. Those who enter into the Church, partake of the Sacraments, ect are being saved. Those who sleep in on Sunday morning, never avail themselves of the Sacraments, aren't.

We have freewill to participate in the life of the Church.

Well, let's consider this:

Our Lord says in John 3: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Or it can also be translated as: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Both translations are good. There is a double meaning in this sentence. We are born again, in the sense that we first have a natural birth and then a spiritual birth (cf. John 3:6, 2 Corinthians 5:17, 1 Peter 1:23). And we are born from above, in the sense that God is the one who creates life (cf. Psalms 139:13-14, Genesis 2:7). He creates natural life through the means of parents, and spiritual life through the means of His Word and Sacraments administered by His Church. And both forms of life are created through means and love. But the person created does not wish, ask, work, or choose to receive life. No, life is entirely given as a free gift. We didn't choose or work in order to live, but our lives were given to us as a gift. It's the same with spiritual life in Christ. And that's really the point of the discourse between Nicodemus and Jesus — that life is not earned, but given, out of God's love and grace.

Then let's consider the different but similar language of being dead in sin:

Psalms 51: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Ephesians 2: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Our Lord in Matthew 8: "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

John 5: "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will."

1 Timothy 5: "She who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives."

Ephesians 5: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

The language of sinners being spiritually dead is common throughout the Scriptures, and I think it's good to meditate on and contemplate the seriousness and severity of it. A dead person cannot work himself to life, neither want or choose himself to life. What he can do is to remain unclean, rot, and perish. When our Lord, in John 11, called out to his dead friend whom he loved: "Lazarus, come out!", it is a command and a creative word that gives life. The modern idea of a personal decision for Jesus doesn't fit the context. Or consider when our Lord saved His people from Egypt, again, it's not a situation that revolves around a personal choice, but God graciously saving His people, out of His own love and kindness.

So, with this in mind, we do not choose God, but God chooses us. Or to quote Scriptures: "We love because he first loved us." It is precisely God saving us, giving us life, and adopting us, that enables us to live for Him through Him. So we do have choices to make in the realm of our Sanctification, the growth of holiness, love, and good works. But not in our Justification. And this is the holy mystery that we must uphold: That salvation is entirely from God, but damnation is entirely from man.

This post is already very long, but maybe I can end with a simple illustration. This is not an accurate illustration, and shouldn't be pushed too far, but it can perhaps help our mind appreciate something similar to the holy mystery in simple terms. Suppose a drunk beggar, passed out on the streets, were given a great gift by the king. When the beggar wakes up, and sees his gift, he has freedom in choosing to distrust the king's promise that it truly belongs to him, and so throw away the gift. Or he can trust his king and use the gift already given, to live a new and charitable life. In other words, he didn't ask for the gift, but at the same time, he has the freedom in rejecting it. The gift, however, is objectively real and truly given out of pure grace. Now, again, I don't want you to push this illustration too far, because quite frankly it's lacking. But I hope it's of some use, nontheless.

I'm glad to hear you've been reading the links, and the peace of Christ to you! +

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I shared your response on the EO forum. I hope that's alright? I'm trying to get the perspective of both sides.
There is something not quite right.
If Christ partook of the same flesh as we, how can we be ontologically dead in sin? Christ had an operative will. I understand that a dead man and a living one can be by nature the same. But is that true? I mean, when we die, our bodies decompose and we become something else entirely.
I am not saying that freewill means I ought not to give God glory for all things. Just the opposite, I glorify and thank him that he loves me enough to create me and preserve me. Everything comes from him.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Double post

 

[Daniel9v9]

I shared your response on the EO forum. I hope that's alright? I'm trying to get the perspective of both sides.
There is something not quite right.
If Christ partook of the same flesh as we, how can we be ontologically dead in sin? Christ had an operative will. I understand that a dead man and a living one can be by nature the same. But is that true? I mean, when we die, our bodies decompose and we become something else entirely.
I am not saying that freewill means I ought not to give God glory for all things. Just the opposite, I glorify and thank him that he loves me enough to create me and preserve me. Everything comes from him.

That's quite alright!

Sin is not a part of human nature as created by God. It corrupts it. That's very important to understand, because Adam and Eve, before the Fall, were fully human, yet free of sin. They were righteous before God. But in the fall, that righteousness was lost, and consequently, we are all sinners. We sin because we're sinners (Original Sin), and we're sinners because we sin (Actual Sin).

Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. Yet, without sin. (cf. 1 Peter 2:22, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15) He is God in flesh, and the one who paid for sin.

Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand the question: "But is that true?" Do you mean to ask if it's true that we are by nature dead in sin?

Also, here's a question worth contemplating — thinking about this from a different angle: Which of your sins did Christ die for? Some of your sins? Your past sins? Original sin only? Actual sins only? I think the more you read and meditate on God's Word with this question in mind, the more you'll find that the answer is: All sins.

Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. This means all sin. It means salvation is done. The word "Gospel" means "good news" and is a promise — something to trust in, not something to do. But that does not imply that we're Antinomians. No, for we are created in Christ for good works, but our good works cannot complete what is already complete, nor aid or sustain the work of He who is almighty. Simply, Justification and Sanctification goes together. Sanctification is not less than Justification, but it does not add to it, complete it, aid it, or sustain it.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

That's quite alright!

Sin is not a part of human nature as created by God. It corrupts it. That's very important to understand, because Adam and Eve, before the Fall, were fully human, yet free of sin. They were righteous before God. But in the fall, that righteousness was lost, and consequently, we are all sinners. We sin because we're sinners (Original Sin), and we're sinners because we sin (Actual Sin).

Ok. That makes sense. So Adam's sin is our sin, not in a legal sense so much, but in that we are all human (Adam); we all share a common flesh and blood. Therefore, Christ doing away with our personal sin is one and the same as doing away with original sin. Also, to enlighten us, free our will, ect. is to free Adam's (our will is bound because Adam's is bound)?

Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. Yet, without sin. (cf. 1 Peter 2:22, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15) He is God in flesh, and the one who paid for sin.

He became sin for us?

Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand the question: "But is that true?" Do you mean to ask if it's true that we are by nature dead in sin?

I was asking about the word death as used in Scripture. When I think of death I think of an ontological change. Our bodies turn to soil literally--we break down. When scripture talks about our wills being dead, it doesn't mean an ontological change, does it?

Also, here's a question worth contemplating — thinking about this from a different angle: Which of your sins did Christ die for? Some of your sins? Your past sins? Original sin only? Actual sins only? I think the more you read and meditate on God's Word with this question in mind, the more you'll find that the answer is: All sins.

Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. This means all sin. It means salvation is done. The word "Gospel" means "good news" and is a promise — something to trust in, not something to do. But that does not imply that we're Antinomians. No, for we are created in Christ for good works, but our good works cannot complete what is already complete, nor aid or sustain the work of He who is almighty. Simply, Justification and Sanctification goes together. Sanctification is not less than Justification, but it does not add to it, complete it, aid it, or sustain it.

Thinking....

 

[Till Schilling]

It seems to me that for Lutherans, the importance of keeping justification and sanctification separate, is because we are afraid to approach God as anything other than 'poor miserable sinners'.

No, not really. Not afraid to boast at all. Just realistic enough to know that there is nothing to boast of in the light of God‘s demand of complete love.

No such thing as sanctification. In the sense of becoming holier, becoming more spiritual, getting closer to Theosis.

We are (still) here for a purpose. That purpose is other people. Not us becoming holier.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

No, not really. Not afraid to boast at all. Just realistic enough to know that there is nothing to boast of in the light of God‘s demand of complete love.

Do you mean love as action or love as existential being?

No such thing as sanctification. In the sense of becoming holier, becoming more spiritual, getting closer to Theosis.

We are (still) here for a purpose. That purpose is other people. Not us becoming holier.

Luther said that we are sinners and saints though.

 

[Till Schilling]

Do you mean love as action or love as existential being?

Both of course. In the words of the Lord Jesus himself:

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

“with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind” sounds pretty existential to me. It is an incredibly demanding demand. Which we will surely fail to meet. But that - I dare say - does not matter. Our failure has been dealt with. Christ has carried the failure, the guilt of the world onto the cross, into death. All sin is forgiven, so why worry about our sanctification? I hope I am not being sacrilegious but I doubt that God is particularly interested in our failures and our trying to not fail. God is interested in us actually believing the Gospel: your sins are forgiven and you are counted righteous for the sake of Christ Jesus. The only man whose life is pleasing to God the Father. God does of course hate sin but isn’t not believing God’s forgiveness the greatest sin?

Luther said that we are sinners and saints though.

Not quite. Simul iustus et peccator means simultaneously sinner and justified.

We are not all saints in the meaning this word would have had in the Middle Ages. And of course there are some of us who reflect the character of God more than others. And it is good to follow their example and strive for more godliness and more holiness. But it does not make anyone more justified.